my Wife's dying Baptist Aunt...

[tomch]

My wife’s family is very devout Baptist. Her Aunt loves the Lord dearly, but coming from a Baptist background, she doesn’t believe in the “true presence” in the Eucharist. Anyway, Aunt J is 85, and the doctors have indicated that she’s very close to death’s door.

Jesus said that “unless you eat My flesh and drink My blood, you have no part in Me.” Does this mean that Aunt J has no “part in Jesus,” even though she loves Him?

The thief next to Jesus didn’t have a chance to celebrate the Eucharist, yet Jesus assured him of a place in paradise.

Maybe this is one of those cases were Jesus will grant grace even when someone isn’t walking in the truth because they did their best they could with what they had?

If anyone has any ideas, I’d sure appreciate your comments. We love Aunt J very much, and I’d be so grateful for some reassurance.

 

[Atemi]

All this assumes that your wife’s aunt has not eaten our Lord’s Body and drank His Blood.

As non-Catholics, we believe our Lord was using powerful metaphor in these passages to signify coming to Him and believing in Him:

Jhn 6:35 “He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.”

If your wife’s aunt truly loves the Lord and believes in Him, she has nothing to fear and everything to celebrate:

Jhn 6:47 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life”

If she believes in Him, she has eternal life. That is His promise that cannot fail.

God is so good.

 

[ricmat]

Maybe this is one of those cases were Jesus will grant grace even when someone isn’t walking in the truth because they did their best they could with what they had?

There are some real experts here that can chime in, but it seems to me that you hit the nail on the head above.

And perhaps she is very close to the truth (even though she got there by other means).

 

[DallasCatholic]

You might want to check out this thread:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=132684&highlight=protestants+when+they+die

My understanding is that the Church does not rule out the possibility that a protestant may get to heaven.

 

[VociMike]

Pay close attention to what Jesus says:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;

he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Notice that Jesus is speaking in the specific (“you”) in the first part, but in the general (“he”, meaning any person) in the second part. Jesus tells us in general who will have life, but only specifically, not with equal generality, who will not.

Who are those who will not have life if they do not eat and drink? Those to whom the reality of the Eucharist and the need to eat and drink has been revealed. Those who hear the truth and reject it.

Jesus deliberately does not speak in general terms in the first part because there will be people who have not had the chance to accept or reject this truth of their own free will. That obviously applies to those who never hear it. It probably applies as well to those who have only heard it in a distorted version, with their pastors railing against it.

 

[LilyM]

The thief next to Jesus didn’t have a chance to celebrate the Eucharist, yet Jesus assured him of a place in paradise.

Maybe this is one of those cases were Jesus will grant grace even when someone isn’t walking in the truth because they did their best they could with what they had?

I think you’ve hit it here. We must interpret the Scripture in the light of reason, since it is never unreasonable (although some aspects of it go beyond the capabilities of human reason).

God doesn’t command the impossible of us. That includes the physical reception of the Eucharist. If a person, due to factors beyond their control, is prohibited from receiving the Eucharist, it doesn’t matter. There’d be an awful lot of young children who have died and not been saved otherwise, having not been of age to make their First Communion.

We, however, who understand, and are capable, and permitted, are certainly bound to receive the Eucharist yearly as commanded through the Church.

And we must also remember that God himself isn’t bound by the form of his Sacraments, but can bestow his grace and salvation on whoever he chooses, for any reason or no reason. Much like a parent can set a curfew for their children without being bound to go to sleep at the same time as them.

 

[Bennie_P]

I think you’ve hit it here. We must interpret the Scripture in the light of reason, since it is never unreasonable (although some aspects of it go beyond the capabilities of human reason).

God doesn’t command the impossible of us. That includes the physical reception of the Eucharist. If a person, due to factors beyond their control, is prohibited from receiving the Eucharist, it doesn’t matter. There’d be an awful lot of young children who have died and not been saved otherwise, having not been of age to make their First Communion.

We, however, who understand, and are capable, and permitted, are certainly bound to receive the Eucharist yearly as commanded through the Church.

And we must also remember that God himself isn’t bound by the form of his Sacraments, but can bestow his grace and salvation on whoever he chooses, for any reason or no reason. Much like a parent can set a curfew for their children without being bound to go to sleep at the same time as them.

AMEN

CCC para 1058 The Church prays that no one should be lost: “Lord, let me never be parted from you.” If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God “desires all men to be saved” (1 Tim 2:4), and that for him “all things are possible” (Mt 19:26).

God makes the final call.

I believe many would agree … your hope in God’s mercy for your wife’s aunt would be well founded.

 

[Legal_Eagle]

Aunt J’s going to heaven. No sweat.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

My wife’s family is very devout Baptist. Her Aunt loves the Lord dearly, but coming from a Baptist background, she doesn’t believe in the “true presence” in the Eucharist. Anyway, Aunt J is 85, and the doctors have indicated that she’s very close to death’s door.

Jesus said that “unless you eat My flesh and drink My blood, you have no part in Me.” Does this mean that Aunt J has no “part in Jesus,” even though she loves Him?

The thief next to Jesus didn’t have a chance to celebrate the Eucharist, yet Jesus assured him of a place in paradise.

Maybe this is one of those cases were Jesus will grant grace even when someone isn’t walking in the truth because they did their best they could with what they had?

If anyone has any ideas, I’d sure appreciate your comments. We love Aunt J very much, and I’d be so grateful for some reassurance.

No doubt your wife’s aunt is very committed to the Lord. However, due to her background, she doesn’t have the fullness of the Faith. This isn’t her own fault, it’s because of her upbringing. As such, we put these matters in the hands of God. We cannot say positively who is in Heaven (aside from canonized Saints), or who is in Hell.

 

[Trento]

My wife’s family is very devout Baptist. Her Aunt loves the Lord dearly, but coming from a Baptist background, she doesn’t believe in the “true presence” in the Eucharist. Anyway, Aunt J is 85, and the doctors have indicated that she’s very close to death’s door.

Jesus said that “unless you eat My flesh and drink My blood, you have no part in Me.” Does this mean that Aunt J has no “part in Jesus,” even though she loves Him?

The thief next to Jesus didn’t have a chance to celebrate the Eucharist, yet Jesus assured him of a place in paradise.

Maybe this is one of those cases were Jesus will grant grace even when someone isn’t walking in the truth because they did their best they could with what they had?

If anyone has any ideas, I’d sure appreciate your comments. We love Aunt J very much, and I’d be so grateful for some reassurance.

Jesus also prayed to the Father to forgive His tormentors because they were ignorent of what they were doing. Here is more scripture for you.

**When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. (Rom 2:1-16; **

**The ``law unto themselves’’ is man’s participation in God’s eternal law, sometimes known as the natural law. Significantly, St. Paul has not mentioned faith in Christ as a condition for knowledge of this natural law: it is a law knowable by all men without respect to creed. As St. Paul says, it is written on men’s hearts, though it can be clouded by sin. **

**St. Luke, who was a disciple of St. Paul, reports in his gospel the words of Jesus: **

**And that servant who knew his master’s will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more. (Lk 12:47-48, cf. Lk 19:26, Mt 25:29, Mk 4:25) **
Ignorance of Apostolic teaching will be judged accordingly.
It is finally God alone who sees into men’s hearts and what truth they have been given in life, and it is he who will judge on this basis. It is not for human judges to divide the sheep from the goats.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

All this assumes that your wife’s aunt has not eaten our Lord’s Body and drank His Blood.

As non-Catholics, we believe our Lord was using powerful metaphor in these passages to signify coming to Him and believing in Him:

Jhn 6:35 “He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.”

If your wife’s aunt truly loves the Lord and believes in Him, she has nothing to fear and everything to celebrate:

Jhn 6:47 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life”

If she believes in Him, she has eternal life. That is His promise that cannot fail.

God is so good.

nice description.

 

[tomch]

Thank you all so much for your encouragement. I’ve been a little bit confused about what we Catholics believed about our Protestant friends, and it’s good to get that straightened out finally.

 

[Pierre_Jean]

Has this “Aunt J” ACTIVELY worked against the Catholic Church?

Did she ever tell anyone that the Catholic Church did not have the Truth? Did she ever refuse to believe in the Real Presence, despite being led to the Scripture plainly “spelling out” the Real Presence of Jesus in the bread and wine? Did she ever knowingly contribute to the Freemasons, knowing their anti-Christian ways?

If you could answer “yes” to any of the above questions, and others, then you can assume your “Aunt J” is going to Hell. Not that God won’t save her from eternal damnation…But if she can answer “yes” to any of those questions, she’s definitely been against Jesus and His Church her whole life…

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

As far as Auntie is concerned. Catholics believe that we are saved by God’s sanctifying grace through the death and resurrection of His Son. He has given us the normal means of receiving His grace, which are the Sacraments. Auntie, being Baptist, has limited herself to two Sacraments (marriage and baptism). Although she will recieve graces for true faith, she does not have the opportunity to reconcile herself to God for her sins through the Sacrament of Reconcilliation. She does not receive His strengthening and sanctifying Grace through the Eucharist. However, we can see from the repentent thief, Jesus can and will grant salvation outside the normal means. He is that merciful.

The bottom line is that if Auntie dies in a state of grace, she will go to heaven. That state is harder to get to for Protestants because they do not use all the Sacraments. However, if they are ignorant of the Sacraments and do not realize that the Sacrament of Penance is how God wants them to reconcile themselves to Himself, then they may be “cut some slack”. Remember, when it comes to mortal sin, it must be a grave matter, it must be willfully committed, and it must have full knowledge.

As always, we must trust, trust, trust in the Lord’s mercy. He is infinitely merciful. While we are still duty bound to “instruct the ignorant” we may have great comfort and hope in the mercy of Our Lord.

 

[Atemi]

Has this “Aunt J” ACTIVELY worked against the Catholic Church?

Did she ever tell anyone that the Catholic Church did not have the Truth? Did she ever refuse to believe in the Real Presence, despite being led to the Scripture plainly “spelling out” the Real Presence of Jesus in the bread and wine? Did she ever knowingly contribute to the Freemasons, knowing their anti-Christian ways?

If you could answer “yes” to any of the above questions, and others, then you can assume your “Aunt J” is going to Hell. Not that God won’t save her from eternal damnation…But if she can answer “yes” to any of those questions, she’s definitely been against Jesus and His Church her whole life…

How utterly offensive a post is this?

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Pierre Jean

and this convinces us how? Perhaps a SDA sermon on the evils of the Catholic church possibly would convince you on how hurtful you have just been. How it feels to be the butt of hate.

Honestly what good will come of such actions on your part? Hate is whose teaching?

 

[tomch]

Has this “Aunt J” ACTIVELY worked against the Catholic Chu4rch?

She taught Sunday School for years, and I’m sure that she emphasized the “faith alone” doctrine of the Baptist church (which she herself was taught), but not out of a hatred for Catholics.

Did she ever tell anyone that the Catholic Church did not have the Truth?

Probably. She believed in the “faith alone” and “scripture alone” doctrines with all her heart. Again, though, her understanding was a result of the teaching of her church. She was wrong, but was doing her best with what she understood.

Did she ever refuse to believe in the Real Presence, despite being led to the Scripture plainly “spelling out” the Real Presence of Jesus in the bread and wine?

Like most Baptists, she rejected the “Real Presence” because her church adamantly told her that it is only symbolic. She was instructed this way, and I’m sure that it was hard for her to see it any other way.

Did she ever knowingly contribute to the Freemasons, knowing their anti-Christian ways?

I doubt it.

If you could answer “yes” to any of the above questions, and others, then you can assume your “Aunt J” is going to Hell. Not that God won’t save her from eternal damnation…But if she can answer “yes” to any of those questions, she’s definitely been against Jesus and His Church her whole life…

That’s a little harsh - You can’t assume such things when you don’t know her. She takes her faith very seriously, and has done so for her whole life. Yes… I believe that her Baptist beliefs are wrong, but she has definitely NOT been against Jesus and His Church (as she understands Jesus and His Church) her whole life.

 

[Pierre_Jean]

Whereas we will never know what “Aunt J’s” state of grace was at her death, what we WILL know is whether or not she accepted THE CHURCH or if she REJECTED Her.

If she rejected Her at the moment of death, then we can assume the Church rejected “Aunt J”.

By being a “Protestant” you put yourself in harm’s way - you reject Christ as King for no good reason, and, as He says, the wages of sin is DEATH.

I’m not here to play “feel-good” Catholicism.

 

[tomch]

I’m brand new to Catholicism, so I might be off base… but I think that accepting CHRIST is the key - the Church helps us find Christ. The thief on the cross didn’t find a Church - he found Christ. In fact, I don’t think the Church was even started at that point, was it? Seems like it began in the book of Acts.

I don’t mean that the Church isn’t vitally important as a vehicle to know Christ more deeply. I love my new Catholic faith - because it is helping me grow closer to God and my spiritual family.

 

[Bennie_P]

I’m not here to play “feel-good” Catholicism.

But we are called to speak and act with love…

1Co 13:1 - 13 What if I could speak all languages of humans and of angels? If I did not love others, I would be nothing more than a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. What if I could prophesy and understand all secrets and all knowledge? And what if I had faith that moved mountains? I would be nothing, unless I loved others. What if I gave away all that I owned and let myself be burned alive? I would gain nothing, unless I loved others. Love is kind and patient, never jealous, boastful, proud, or rude. Love isn’t selfish or quick tempered. It doesn’t keep a record of wrongs that others do. Love rejoices in the truth, but not in evil. Love is always supportive, loyal, hopeful, and trusting. Love never fails! Everyone who prophesies will stop, and unknown languages will no longer be spoken. All that we know will be forgotten. We don’t know everything, and our prophecies are not complete. But what is perfect will someday appear, and what isn’t perfect will then disappear. *When we were children, we thought and reasoned as children do. *But when we grew up, we quit our childish ways. Now all we can see of God is like a cloudy picture in a mirror. *Later we will see him face to face. We don’t know everything, but then we will, just as God completely understands us. For now there are faith, hope, and love. But of these three, the greatest is love. *

I know I have to be slow to judge and my use of words are not to be used in prideful way. I’m reminded that …
1 Cor 10:12 Therefore, the person who thinks he is standing securely should watch out that he does not fall.