Mystery of the Trinity question

[ERose]

Well, the triune god concept is fascinating. My best guess is that, borrowing from the mystical religions of the Mediterranen world, God/man beliefs spread and, the new religion slowly fashioned itself into a much more user friendly and Romanized set of doctrines, ultimately embracing the idea of multible gods and sub-dieties (saints) and goddesses–chiefly Mary. Undoubtedly, Catholism owes a grat deal to Constantine who in the 4th century converted, and all the councils inspired by his conversion. The scriptures were written and re-written and re-written over the decades after the crucifixion. I think the earliest copies are dated sometime about the time of Constantine. My guess is a lot of the doctrinal stuff got invented, added, morphed, and, edited during translation sufficiently to firm up the triune God concept.

You need to stop getting all of your information from the history channels for none of what you said in this quote if correct and none of it has any basis in facts or history.

 

[ERose]

Sorry … maybe I should also add …

A human father and son, while they share the same nature, are such that the son is subservient to the father because the son has his origin in the father. This is also true with regard to the Trinity. The divine Son is (in traditional analogous terminology) generated (from all eternity) from the Father … making the Son subservient to the Father in some sense, just as a human son is generated from a human father and yet sharing in the father’s nature (secondarily, of course … though in the Trinity, I believe, it is also primarily).

If I spoke heretically (though I’m pretty darn sure I didn’t), please correct me … someone.

This I took out of the Anthanasian Creed which you can find at:

ccel.org/creeds/athanasian.creed.html

1. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
2. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
3. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
4. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
5. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
6. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
7. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
8. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
9. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
10. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

the Father, Son and Holy Spirit share more than the same nature they are the same Being. Each member of the Godhood is by themselves totally and completely God yet not 3 Gods, one God. By definition one cannot be greater than the other in divinity since divinity is infinite and eternal.

The Son humbles Himself before His Father while the Father exalts His Son with a name even greater than His.

 

[4Horsemen]

Well, the triune god concept is fascinating. My best guess is that, borrowing from the mystical religions of the Mediterranen world, God/man beliefs spread and, the new religion slowly fashioned itself into a much more user friendly and Romanized set of doctrines, ultimately embracing the idea of multible gods and sub-dieties (saints) and goddesses–chiefly Mary. Undoubtedly, Catholism owes a grat deal to Constantine who in the 4th century converted, and all the councils inspired by his conversion. The scriptures were written and re-written and re-written over the decades after the crucifixion. I think the earliest copies are dated sometime about the time of Constantine. My guess is a lot of the doctrinal stuff got invented, added, morphed, and, edited during translation sufficiently to firm up the triune God concept.

The concept of the Trinity, I agree, is fascinating and at the same time, a mystery. We, mortals, will never be able to totally comprehend it in this life. However, although we may never understand it on an intellectual level, we can open our hearts to “understand” with our “spiritual eyes.” God gives glimpses of Himself to His faithful ones.

Recently, my 5-year-old granddaughter was questioning me about this venerable mystery of the Trinity. I tried to explain using the shamrock idea for starters. She perked up saying (which I’ll paraphrase): “Oh, I understand. The Father is in the Son, so the Son is also the Father, and the Holy Spirit is in the Son, so the Son is also the Holy Spirit.” I was quite surprised because I hadn’t even thought of it that way, but I think it may be theologically correct. She didnt’t ffollow up with the Father is also the Son and the Holy Spirit is also the Son. I don’t know if this is admissible. Any theologians out there who could help us out?

The New Testament was being written starting in the early centuries. I read that the gospels were taking form (at least that of Matthew and John) after half a century had elapsed. A few weeks ago, I attended a special exhibit at the Milwaukee Public Museum featuring the Dead Sea Scrolls. It was interesting to note that the whole book of Isaiah was intact and compared to the modern versions finding them to be true to the earliest version. Other early books were partially intact. It was extremely interesting, but there were so many people milling about that it was hard to read all the posters.

One more thing. The Church does not worship “mulltiple gods and subdeities, (saints) and goddesses, chiefly Mary.” The Church offers us an opportunity to ask for prayers from the saints, most especially, the Mother of Jesus, and our angels as we ask for prayers from our friends and relatives on earth.

Many blessings,
4Horsemen

 

[cbwhite]

***In every such occurence it is *JESUS the man,[Human nature] ***** NOT Jesus the God,[Divine Nature] subjecting HIS HUMAN NATURE to the Fathers [and threfore His own Divine Nature.

Love and prayers, Thanks for asking.

Pat

Yes, Pat definitely has got it right. Folks with this shaky objection to the Trinity often cite John 14:28, “You heard me say to you, `I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I…”

Again, Jesus is referring here to His human nature. I’ve got a defense of the Trinity (a work in progress, really) at cegguam.org/defense_of_trinity

 

[LilyM]

I know married couples who, if you praise some achievement of one spouse, they will immediately, and with great humility, say something like ‘I couldn’t have done it without wife/hubby’s help - she/he really deserves the credit’. In that sense they are making their spouse out to be ‘greater’ than themselves.

This is the way humility and love work - one wants to ‘magnify’ one’s loved one to the uttermost. Such was Jesus’ love for the Father.

 

[spockrates]

I think you must be referring to such scriptures as “For the Father is greater than I”, and “no one knows, not angels, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

The Church has explained such verses as pertaining to Christ’s human nature. Our human nature is finite, and when Jesus, that is God the Son, assumed human nature, he took on our finite state in its entirety, while not ceasing to remain God the Son. So when He says, "the Father is greater than I", He is speaking in that assumed human state, in which He is a creature, a finite being of creation. But don’t be fooled as to thinking that it means He was not divine at any time of His earthly life. Jesus is numerically ONE person, with numerically TWO natures, divine and human. So He can at one point seem inferior by saying “no one knows, not the angels, nor the Son, but only the Father”, but at another time say “before Abraham came to be, I AM.” And, “Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not listen, because you do not belong to God.”

I’d also like to add that within the Trinity, there are 3 persons, entirely equal and eternal, perfect and holy. But with succession comes a somewhat inferior attitude of the persons. God eternally begetts the Son, and the Holy Ghost proceeds from them eternally. Hence, it can be understood that God the Father constantly leads us with His Son with and in His Spirit (“No one knows the Father except the Son, and know one knows the Son except the Father, and anyone to whom He draws Him.”) And the Son always leads us, with and in His Spirit, to the Father (“Whoever hears Me hears the Father who sent me.”) And the Holy Spirit Himself always leads to the Father in and with the Son (“The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name–He will teach you everything and remind you of all that I have told you.”)
Each person in the Trinity constantly leads us toward another, that full holiness, perfection, and understanding of God can be complete.

Hope this cleared up any confusion. God Bless.

Good thoughts, Mary!

I have another (though probably not as good):

The Son of God is equal to the Father God in essence …

For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

(John 5:18)

… but inferior to the Father God in position.

If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

(John 15:10)