Mystical Body of Christ

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Tomster,

I invite you to share some of your feelings about this deep ocean, and how they have affected your life with Christ. It would be great to catch your fire, more or less. What is the name of this book, so those who are interested might get a copy?

Carole
Carole,

I was healed of very serious life threatning disease some twenty years ago. This disease permeated every aspect of my life, spiritual, physical, mental and emotional. These past twenty years I have been blessed to have received treatment from experts in all of these areas. In my journey these past twenty years I have seen the hand of God in everything that has happened and through very wise council from some very holy men I have returned to my Christian heritage and have tried (and failed at times) to accept God’s will for me.

Tomster

N.B. The key to my healing has been the Blessed Mother.
 
Continuing a small 🙂 meditation on this wonderful feast of Our Lord’s love for us, the feast of the Sacred Heart.

"But it is chiefly Our pastoral concern which prompts us to expound this sublime doctrine in detail at the present time. Mnay works have been published concerning it, and We are aware of the increasing activity with which this study is now being widely pursued, to the consolation and benefit of Christian piety. It seems that this is to be attributed especially to the renewed study of the sacred liturgy, to the prevalent practice of more frequent Communion, and to the happily growing devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, which have led many minds to contemplate more profoundly the unsearchable riches of Christ laid up in the Church. “The Mystical Body of Christ” # 8

"The popularity of this devotion among all faithful Catholics is in fact a sign of their unfailing adherence to the traditional faith of the Church in the unity of the divine Person of Christ. For the Catholic Christ is not merely a great moral teacher, not merely a lovable man, not merely a man who lived in the closest possible union with God; he is God himself. The human perfections that we admire in himand strive to imitate are the human perfections of God, the sympathetic understanding, the human lovableness which has attracted men in all ages to follow him and, if need be, to die for him, have their seat in the heart that has won all hearts, in the human Heart of God himself.
 
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joysong:
Dear friends,

We have been considering several documents and teachings regarding the Mystical Body of Christ. The challenge and question remains now, do we believe this?

How does this translate into a new way of “seeing” Christ in our brother or sister, or even in those we dislike?
Well, Carole, what do you mean by this? Sure, we should see Christ in all men…and this spurs us on to do the corporal and spiritual works of mercy that are required of us. You and the other member of your mutual admiration society seem to be implying that all men are of good will…and all men belong in some way to the Mystical Body of Christ. Pope Pius XII disagrees with you…he wrote the encyclical…he possessed the Keys…he was protected by the Holy Ghost. Why don’t you care what he said and how he meant it?

Again, here is what he said, speaking to the universal Church on faith and morals:

From Mystici Corporis Christi, Encyclical of Pope Pius XII, “On the Mystical Body of Christ”, June 29, 1943:
  1. Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. “For in one spirit” says the Apostle, “were we all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free.” [17] As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith. [18] **And therefore if a man refuse to hear the Church let him be considered – so the Lord commands – as a heathen and a publican. [19] It follows that those are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit. **
  1. Nor must one imagine that the Body of the Church, just because it bears the name of Christ, is made up during the days of its earthly pilgrimage only of members conspicuous for their holiness, or that it consists only of those whom God has predestined to eternal happiness. it is owing to the Savior’s infinite mercy that place is allowed in His Mystical Body here below for those whom, of old, He did not exclude from the banquet. [20] For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy. Men may lose charity and divine grace through sin, thus becoming incapable of supernatural merit, and yet not be deprived of all life if they hold fast to faith and Christian hope, and if, illumined from above, they are spurred on by the interior promptings of the Holy Spirit to salutary fear and are moved to prayer and penance for their sins.
Have we felt a change of heart moving us to minister to another when we reconsider the truth that whatsoever we do for them, we do unto Christ?
Yes, our motivation to do good should always be to do as God wills…to love our neighbor out of the love of God.
Have we ever felt that another who gave himself in service or gesture to us, was in reality imparting the love of Christ to us?
Yes, all goodness shown to us comes from actual graces that all men receive daily.
How can we quicken our perception of this heavenly doctrine?
I think it’s more important to understand this doctrine as Pope Pius XII and previous Popes taught it…lest we “quicken our mis-perceptions” about it. 🙂

Gorman
 
Hello again, Tomster,

How wonderfully Our Lady has helped to deliver you from a most debilitating sickness that extended well beyond the physical! We certainly can rejoice with you and give glory to God. He has kept you safe and in the palm of His hand for many years. It was so good of you to share this with us, since we are able to know you a little better, and understand how the Man of Suffering has come to mean so much to you.

Many of us have suffered also, and have come to know God’s goodness to us in the cross He permits. I might never know Him had it not been for the cross.

This beautiful prayer from St. Patrick is written by one whom I’m certain was very much attuned to the Mystical Body:

Christ to shield me today
Against poison, against burning,
Against drowning, against wounding,
So that there may come to me abundance of reward.
Christ with me, Christ before me, Christ behind me,
Christ in me, Christ beneath me, Christ above me,
Christ on my right, Christ on my left,
Christ when I lie down, Christ when I sit down, Christ when I arise,
Christ in the heart of every man who thinks of me,
Christ in the mouth of everyone who speaks of me,
Christ in every eye that sees me,
Christ in every ear that hears me.
 
I found this great passage in the Catechism–I love the quote from St. Joan of Arc!

**795 **Christ and his Church thus together make up the “whole Christ” (Christus totus). The Church is one with Christ. The saints are acutely aware of this unity:

Let us rejoice then and give thanks that we have become not only Christians, but Christ himself. Do you understand and grasp, brethren, God’s grace toward us? Marvel and rejoice: we have become Christ. For if he is the head, we are the members; he and we together are the whole man… The fullness of Christ then is the head and the members. But what does “head and members” mean? Christ and the Church.230

Our redeemer has shown himself to be one person with the holy Church whom he has taken to himself.231 Head and members form as it were one and the same mystical person.232 A reply of St. Joan of Arc to her judges sums up the faith of the holy doctors and the good sense of the believer: **“About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they’re just one thing, and we shouldn’t complicate the matter.”**233
 
Genesis315,

:hug1: I know I can always count on you for excellent resources! As usual, you are an angel to bring us these truths! I love your post!

I was also impressed with this statement in your document Unity in the Church:
Another head like to Christ must be invented - that is, another Christ if besides the one Church, which is His body, men wish to set up another. “See what you must beware of - see what you must avoid - see what you must dread. It happens that, as in the human body, some member may be cut off a hand, a finger, a foot. Does the soul follow the amputated member? As long as it was in the body, it lived; separated, it forfeits its life. So the Christian is a Catholic as long as he lives in the body: cut off from it he becomes a heretic - the life of the spirit follows not the amputated member.” (S. Augustinus, Sermo cclxvii., n. 4).
God bless,
Carole
 
Genesis315,

:hug1: I know I can always count on you for excellent resources! As usual, you are an angel to bring us these truths! I love your post!

I was also impressed with this statement in your document Unity in the Church:

God bless,
Carole
On Pentecost the priest preached on that very issue with the spirit. You can’t have the Holy Spirit apart from the Church 👍

It was great for a reason besides just truth–this parish had been pretty lax and the priest preached a general culture of dissent and indifference (I go to this parish when I visit my mother). It used to be I would cringe everytime I went. So, I began to make reparations and do penances and pray for this priest. And I kid you not, time passed, but then things started to change there. Incense appeared at Mass reglularly, but most importantly, the priest began preaching like somebody new. He preached the beauty of our faith, like the portions you quoted from St. Augustine or concerning our mandate to evangelize our secular culture and people of Islam so Jesus reigns in all hearts, lest we see our society destroyed by them both. I thank God everyday and pray that he continues lighting the fire of charity in that parish!
 
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Genesis315:
So, I began to make reparations and do penances and pray for this priest. And I kid you not, time passed, but then things started to change there. Incense appeared at Mass reglularly, but most importantly, the priest began preaching like somebody new.
Spoken like a true apostle! I knew a priest in Florida whose manner of celebrating liturgy tore at my spirit, and like you, he received probably more prayers than any other person I knew at the time. Little by little, yes there was a change. Prayer moves mountains, and I think the Lord inclines us to serve one another in the manner related by St. Paul. You reminded me of this passage as I read your post.
1 Cor. 12:24 But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked, so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.
26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it.
:hmmm: I have to wonder how much more good might have been accomplished if I had added the penances you mentioned. So many saints gave this very example. There is a special person for whom I pray now, not a priest, and maybe the Lord is speaking to me through you to add mortification. “This kind comes out only by prayer and fasting.”
 
Gorman,

It has sometimes been argued that non-Catholics in good faith may be said to belong to the soul, as distinguished from the body, of the Church. It can be pointed out that this is not an entirely satisfactory way of viewing the matter, as the distinction in question is not free from ambiguity. It lends itself to the false antithesis between an “invisible” and “visible” Church, and suggests that one might belong Christ’s Mystical Body without being incorporated, simultaneously and in the same degree, in the visible Catholic Church - which is impossible. Moreover, the “soul” of the Church, according to tradition, is the Holy Spirit, by whose power the Mystical Body is animated. Although, from a slightly different viewpoint, we may also consider the created effects of the Spirit’s activity - viz., the vital organism made up of grace, the theological virtues and the gifts of the Holy Spirit - as being the source of the Church’s supernatural life, and to that extent her “soul.” But limitations of space preclude a detailed examination of the relevance of this doctrine to the position of non-Catholics in good faith.

The whole tenor of the Church’s official documents makes it clear that, apart from two cases, it is necessary for salvation to belong explicitly (in re) to the Catholic Church. The two exceptions, wherein membership of the Church by desire (in voto) suffices, are the following: 1) In the event of impossibility of Baptism, which is always necessary for membership, being effectively received. Since, according to the teaching of the Council of Trent (Session VI, cap.iv), the desire for Baptism (contained in the act of charity) can suffice for the soul’s regeneration, it is clear that the desire for membership of the Church, which is made effective by this sacrament, can likewise suffice. And this holds good for catechumens, who are prevented from receiving the sacrament owing to some insuperable obstacle, and for converts from heresy whose antecedent Baptism may be uncertain and who are impeded by the like extremityfrom the actual reception of the sacrament. 2) The Church teaches no less clearly that actual membership of the Catholic Church is not necessary for the salvation of those in invincible ignorance of her true nature. This is stated expressly in the consistorial allocution Singulari quadam of Pope Pius IX, December 9, 1854, and in his Encyclical to the Italian Bishops, August 10, 1863. It follows therefore that in this case also to belong to the Church in voto suffices for salvation.

continued
 
But, when rightly understood, these seeming exceptions serve to emphasize rather than diminish the universal urgency of full and explicit membership of the Catholic Church. “We invite them all,” writes Pope Pius XII, alluding to the whole non-Catholic world, “each and everyone, to yield their free consent to the inner stirrings of God’s grace and strive to extricate themselves from a state in which they may be related to the Mystical Body of the Redeemer by some unconscious yearning and desire, yet they are deprived of those many great and heavenly gifts and aids which can be enjoyed only in the Catholic Church. Let them enter Catholic unity, therefore, and joined with us in the one organism of the Body of Jesus Christ, hasten together to the one Head in the fellowship of most glorious love. We cease not to pray for them to the Spirit of love and truth, and with open arms we await them, not as strangers but as those who are coming to their own father’s home.”

Tomster
 
Going through my archives this morning (on a beautiful day off from the “salt mine” 😃 ) I found a wonderful volume "The Catholic Doctrine of Grace written by G.H. Joyce S.J., copyright 1950.

In chapter 11, titled The Church the Home of Grace, Fr. Joyce teaches that the New Testament never allows us to lose sight of the truth that the Catholic Church alone is the home of grace. The Church is the company of the redeemed - the society of those who, through the Passion of Christ Jesus, have been delivered from the bondage of sin, and reconciled to God. But this deliverance from sin consists in the possesion of sanctifying grace. It is this that reconciles us with God, that elevates us to the dignity of His children, that procurs for us the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Christ, our Lord, purchased these benefits for all mankind. Through His messengers He offers them to the whole world. But the greater part of men reject them: they have little desire for blessings which belong to another life. Their whole interests are centered on this present existence; and they will have nothing to say to privileges which, as far as this life is concerned, entail self denial and sacrifice. Some, however, welcome to offer, and desire to partake of the blessings. The conditions imposed on them are simple. They must believe the message, and enter the Church. Faith is an essential prerequisite, for God deals with us as rational beings. Our acceptance of salvation must be a free act of our own. We cannot be saved unless we seek salvation, nor can we seek salvation unless we believe the message which announces it. Baptism admits us into the Church; and in admitting us to the number of Christ’s followers, incorporates us into Him. We become members of His Mystical Body, branches of the true Vine, partakers of all that won for man on Calvary.

Throughout Christian history there has ever been one only body which has displayed this mark of unity. This body is the Church in communion with the see of Rome, and ruled by the successor of St. Peter. She, and she alone, has the right to claim to be the home of grace.
 
Gorman,

It has sometimes been argued that non-Catholics in good faith may be said to belong to the soul, as distinguished from the body, of the Church. It can be pointed out that this is not an entirely satisfactory way of viewing the matter, as the distinction in question is not free from ambiguity. It lends itself to the false antithesis between an “invisible” and “visible” Church, and suggests that one might belong Christ’s Mystical Body without being incorporated, simultaneously and in the same degree, in the visible Catholic Church - which is impossible. Moreover, the “soul” of the Church, according to tradition, is the Holy Spirit, by whose power the Mystical Body is animated. Although, from a slightly different viewpoint, we may also consider the created effects of the Spirit’s activity - viz., the vital organism made up of grace, the theological virtues and the gifts of the Holy Spirit - as being the source of the Church’s supernatural life, and to that extent her “soul.” But limitations of space preclude a detailed examination of the relevance of this doctrine to the position of non-Catholics in good faith.
Dear Tomster,

Thank you for your response. Most of it I agree with…but there is some clarification needed as to what you mean in the first paragraph. It is precisely the term “soul of the Church” that has been abused by those who wish to in some way to explain away the Catholic Church as a necessity of means.

Remember that there are no true exceptions to the dogma that we speak of here. Here’s a excerpt from Monsignor Fenton on this subject, The Theological Proof for the Necessity of the Catholic Church – Part I:

catholicresponse.net/proofpart1.htm
The fact of the matter is, of course that the possibility and existence of a genuine invincible ignorance about the true Church of God has nothing whatsoever to do with the Church’s real necessity of means for eternal salvation. If the Church were requisite merely in terms of the necessity of precept, then the existence of a really inculpable ignorance with reference to it would automatically excuse all of those held in the ties of that ignorance. But it so happens that the Church is necessary for salvation with the necessity of means. Hence, those who have hitherto remained in ignorance of the true Church through no fault of their own still need this society in order to attain to the Beatific Vision.
In order to understand this portion of the Singulari quadam it is absolutely essential to keep in mind the truth which forms the essential background to all of the Catholic teaching about the necessity of the Church for salvation, the divinely revealed doctrine that the salvation of mankind is something intrinsically supernatural and something of which the family of Adam is rightly deprived because of original sin. For this twofold reason, then, eternal salvation must not be considered as something naturally due to man. Salvation, as the term itself indicates, implies a transfer from an undesirable status to a condition of blessedness. Concretely, the salvation of any human being involves a transfer from the fallen family of Adam to that company which is known as the Body of Jesus Christ.
The man who is not thus brought or transferred into the Body of Jesus Christ, but who remains merely a member of the fallen Family of Adam, will not attain to the Beatific Vision. Even though such a man has had no means of knowing the existence of the true Church of Jesus Christ, and consequently is in no way to blame for not entering this society or not even desiring to enter it, he will remain deprived of the Beatific Vision if he departs from this life in such a condition. The mortal sins which he many have committed in this life, together with original sin itself, would suffice to constitute him as unworthy of heaven. The fact that he had not been incorporated into the one supernatural society within which the divine fellowship is to be found in this world render him ineligible for the essentially supernatural beatitude of the Church triumphant.
…Any doctrine which, even under the pretense of explaining the axiom “extra ecclesiam nulla sallas,” actually presents the Catholic Church as an agency not really requisite for salvation is rightly designated by the Singulari quadam as fostering or inculcating religious indifferentism. For it is by no means characteristic of this indifferentism to say that one religion is as good as another. What is essential to it is the mistaken notion that man can achieve his ultimate end outside of and apart from the true Church of Jesus Christ.
Gorman
 
[Footnote: This thread was not begun to debate, yet again, the topic of E.E.N.S. (Outside the Church there is no salvation), and I ask those who are desirous of discussing this to please begin another thread and refrain from sabotaging this one. Thanks so much.]

A reminder from my post here.

Gorman, the reason for this reminder was to prevent another opportunity to spread erroneous doctrine that is not the fullnes of church teaching. Any slight crack in a door here is your moment to inject it, yet again. Past experience has shown that you do not listen to the arguments of others, not to those of the church, since you admit you are a sedevacantist. There is therefore, no point in hijacking this thread for your purpose.
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You:
Even though such a man has had no means of knowing the existence of the true Church of Jesus Christ, and consequently is in no way to blame for not entering this society or not even desiring to enter it, he will remain deprived of the Beatific Vision if he departs from this life in such a condition.
I sense that this comment may ultimately foment a downward spiral to close the thread, but I am grateful that there was adequate discussion for those interested in the Mystical Body of Christ.
 
joysong said:
[Footnote: This thread was not begun to debate, yet again, the topic of E.E.N.S. (Outside the Church there is no salvation), and I ask those who are desirous of discussing this to please begin another thread and refrain from sabotaging this one. Thanks so much.]

Gorman, the reason for this reminder was to prevent another opportunity to spread erroneous doctrine that is not the fullnes of church teaching. Any slight crack in a door here is your moment to inject it, yet again.

Dear Carole,

I don’t care about your footnote. It was an effort to avoid talking about the subject of membership in the Church, which definitely a part of the encyclical Mystici Corporis, which was being discussed, if I’m not mistaken.
Past experience has shown that you do not listen to the arguments of others, not to those of the church, since you admit you are a sedevacantist. There is therefore, no point in hijacking this thread for your purpose.
It is the subject of Mystici Corporis…and I have answered the arguments of others on many if not all occasions. You, however do not have a track record of answering anyone
Monsignor Fenton:
Even though such a man has had no means of knowing the existence of the true Church of Jesus Christ, and consequently is in no way to blame for not entering this society or not even desiring to enter it, he will remain deprived of the Beatific Vision if he departs from this life in such a condition.
This is a quote, not from me, but from Monsignor Joseph Clifford Fenton, S.T.D. and it is relevant to the discussion here. If you have a problem with me posting it, you problem is with Monsignor Fenton and the Church. Past experience has shown that you do not listen to those who are authorities and learned men such as Monsignor Fenton was…I believe that he was involved in the development of the encyclical Mystici Corporis.
I sense that this comment may ultimately foment a downward spiral to close the thread, but I am grateful that there was adequate discussion for those interested in the Mystical Body of Christ.
I find it quite telling that you are predicting a downward spiral…a self fulfilling prophesy to be sure.

Gorman
 
Here’s a bit more from Monsignor Fenton, American Ecclesiastical Review, March 1948:
Monsignor Fenton:
During the nineteenth century, however, the traditional Catholic teaching on the necessity of the Church had become obscured or confused in some Catholic circles. Hence, Pope Pius IX found it necessary to insist upon this dogma and to take measures to overcome the misunderstanding generated by a somewhat naïve “Catholic liberalism.” His most extensive treatment of the dogma of the Church’s necessity is to be found in his Allocution, the Singulari quadam, pronounced on Dec. 9, 1854.

In this Allocution the Holy Father dealt with two distinct errors then troubling the minds of European Catholics. Having completed his teaching on rationalism, the first of these errors, he proceeded to deal with the other.

“Not without sorrow have we seen that another error, and one not less ruinous, has taken possession of certain portions of the Catholic world, and has entered into the souls of the many Catholics who think that they can well hope for the eternal salvation of all those who have in no way entered into the true Church of Christ. For that reason they are wont to inquire time and time again as to what is going to be the fate and the condition after death of those who have never yielded themselves to the Catholic faith and, convinced by completely inadequate arguments, they expect a response that will favor this evil teaching. Far be it from Us, Venerable Brethren, to presume to establish limits to the divine mercy, which is infinite. Far be it from us to wish to scrutinize the hidden counsels and judgments of God, which are a “great deep,” and which human thought can never penetrate. In accordance with our apostolic duty, we desire to stir up your episcopal solicitude and vigilance to drive out of the mind of men, to the extent to which you are able to use all of your energies, that equally impious and deadly opinion that the way of eternal salvation can certainly be found in any religion. With all the skill and learning at your command, you should prove to the people committed to you care that this dogma of Catholic faith is in no way opposed to the divine mercy and justice.” [15]

The basic approach of Pope Pius IX to the dogma of the Church’s necessity was such as to show very clearly that the great Pontiff regarded this particular truth as one about which the faithful should be particularly well informed. The contradiction, or even the weakening of this dogma must be regarded as an evil which the Bishops of the Catholic Church are bound to oppose with all the intellectual forces at their disposal. And, we must remember that the Holy Father was not dealing with any crass denial of the axiom extra ecclesiam nulla sallas. He was faced with a situation in which it was taken for granted that non-Catholics would be saved through the use of those spiritual resources available to them as non-members of the Church of Christ, apart from any real acceptance of the Catholic Faith or of the Catholic Church. It was precisely this attitude or opinion which Pius IX characterized as impious and deadly.

The Singulari quadam then goes on to give the fundamental explanation of that teaching which the Holy Father had commanded the Catholic Bishops to expound to their own flocks. They had been told those over whom they were placed that the Catholic dogma on the necessity of the Church for salvation was in no way opposed to the truths about the divine justice and mercy. They were to proceed in this fashion.

“Certainly we must hold it as of faith that no one can be saved outside of the apostolic Roman Church, that this is the only Ark of Salvation, that the one who does not enter this is going to perish in the deluge. But, nevertheless we must likewise hold it as certain that those who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if that (ignorance) be invincible, will never be charged with any guilt on this account before the eyes of the Lord. Now who is there who would arrogate to himself the power to point out the extent of which ignorance according to the nature and the variety of peoples, regions, talents and so many other things? For really when, loosed from these bodily bonds, we see God as He is, we shall certainly understand with what intimate and beautiful a bond the divine mercy and justice are joined together. But, while we live on earth, weighed down by this mortal body that darkens the mind, let us hold most firmly out of the Catholic doctrine that there is one God, one faith, one baptism. It is wicked to go on inquiring beyond this.” [16]
 
I find it quite telling that you are predicting a downward spiral…a self fulfilling prophesy to be sure.
Experience, Gorman. Whenever the topic gets personal, Jean closes it. You have caused another thread to close, and not being content, attempted to continue your dialog with me by P.M. - however, still clinging to your original opinion. It is impossible to debate when those involved are steadfast in their beliefs and condescending of others who oppose you.
It is the subject of Mystici Corporis…and I have answered the arguments of others on many if not all occasions. You, however do not have a track record of answering anyone.
Correction: I do not answer YOUR posts, due to the above reason.

I’m not sure which pope you believe vacated the papacy and when you discontinued your belief in their teachings, but it appears that Pius XII was the last one you put any credence in. Hence, you will support Msgr. Fenton’s writings, even though he is not vested with Peter’s “keys.” I will not debate with you for your posts are skewed to EENS, and are not the teachings of the CURRENT popes. That’s where we differ, and I do not believe it is conducive to this thread to begin a side discussion on the whys and wherefores of your beliefs.

Again, there is an existing thread for you to debate.
 
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joysong:
Hence, you will support Msgr. Fenton’s writings, even though he is not vested with Peter’s “keys.”
Dear Carole,

Monsignor Fenton was a theologian of considerable weight and was explaining the DOGMA of EENS as the Church has always understood it. It’s a DOGMA, Carole…it does not change!
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joysong:
I will not debate with you for your posts are skewed to EENS
You accuse me of being “skewed to EENS” which is a DOGMA OF THE CHURCH. I take it you disagree with that dogma or you think it has changed somehow.
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joysong:
and are not the teachings of the CURRENT popes.
For those of you who have eyes to see and ears to hear, I rest my case. Carole believes the CURRENT popes no longer teach the dogma of EENS. If one reads Unitatis Redintegratio, Lumen Gentium, or Gaudium et spes one can see why she thinks this way.
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joysong:
That’s where we differ, and I do not believe it is conducive to this thread to begin a side discussion on the whys and wherefores of your beliefs.
Our divergent beliefs are and should be of the utmost importance and interest to all Catholics who want to understand what is wrong in the conciliar church.

Gorman
 
Why would Pius XII allow Fr. Feeny to be censured and later excommunicated or why would he tell the midwives that all that was needed was one act of perfect charity? Why would St. Pius X allow the statement in his catechism to say that those outside the Church in good faith can be saved (because they are united to the soul of the Church)? Either you are misunderstanding the dogma or they too were heretics and not Popes (according to you).

The deposit of faith is not a matter of private judgment.
 
Please return to the original topic. EENS is NOT the topic of this thread. Thank you.
 
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