Mystical Experiences

[seeker_of_God]

I’ve had a draw to the mystical since I was a child.I’ve had a lot of experiences myself growing up.

I grew up more or less in the new age. Now I’m in the Catholic Church of course. But sometimes I don’t know where the line is. I know there have been saints who were mystics. But sometimes I don’t know what is right and what is wrong, besides the obvious things like fortune telling, clairvoyance and the like.

Let me give an example:

Astral projection, or out-of-body experiences, is something that seems to be pretty well studied. I’ve heard people discourage this, but I’ve also heard of Catholics who have had these experiences.

The person who I think has done the most research into this is Robert Bruce. He’s done studies where he has taped cards to the window, with the face of the card facing towards the window so he could not see it from inside. Then he’d have an OBE, travel to the outside and see the face of the card through the window. He’d check his results afterwards, and in the great majority of cases, it was the same card he had seen through the OBE.

That’s why I don’t think it’s just an illusion or a vivid dream.

But then I’m not sure what to think of it. Is it demonic? Is it a real experience?

 

[Lasting_faith]

New age…? OK, I am happy you are Catholic now, but try to understand that even if some “mystical” experiences may be real, most are certainly not. (Reckon 1% is real.) Occultism and “talking” to the dead and all sort of “magical” thing are against what all Christian Churches (at least in Europe) teach. Black Magic comes from Satan, so please talk to your priest for further advices before you go to far. I urge you to do so. A soul open to anything against RCC teachings is a soul open for Satan.

 

[Onedayatatime]

I’ve had a draw to the mystical since I was a child.I’ve had a lot of experiences myself growing up.

I grew up more or less in the new age. Now I’m in the Catholic Church of course. But sometimes I don’t know where the line is. I know there have been saints who were mystics. But sometimes I don’t know what is right and what is wrong, besides the obvious things like fortune telling, clairvoyance and the like.

Let me give an example:

Astral projection, or out-of-body experiences, is something that seems to be pretty well studied. I’ve heard people discourage this, but I’ve also heard of Catholics who have had these experiences.

The person who I think has done the most research into this is Robert Bruce. He’s done studies where he has taped cards to the window, with the face of the card facing towards the window so he could not see it from inside. Then he’d have an OBE, travel to the outside and see the face of the card through the window. He’d check his results afterwards, and in the great majority of cases, it was the same card he had seen through the OBE.

That’s why I don’t think it’s just an illusion or a vivid dream.

But then I’m not sure what to think of it. Is it demonic? Is it a real experience?

I would recommend reading some of the classics. The Cloud of Unknowing, Dark night of the Soul, Dialog of Catherine of Sienna, On Loving God, The Interior Castle, The Confessions of St. Augustine.

I think the Cloud of Unknowing would be a good place to start. Bear in mind most of these were written centuries ago, but have stood the test of time.

 

[Semangelof]

There is a book called “Hostage to the Devil”, by Malachi Martin. In it is a chapter called “the rooster and the tortoise”. In that chapter is a mystic, who among many other things participated in astral travel, with empirical results.

However he never left his body.

Compelled by Christ through an exorcist the demon inside him admitted he deceived him the entire time. None of that he though he new was real.

I would not recommend that book to anyone for a casual read. It will darken your soul. But I would recommend it to anyone who is tempted to go down that road. Better it be darkened a little rather than a lot.

 

[seeker_of_God]

There is a book called “Hostage to the Devil”, by Malachi Martin. In it is a chapter called “the rooster and the tortoise”. In that chapter is a mystic, who among many other things participated in astral travel, with empirical results.

However he never left his body.

Compelled by Christ through an exorcist the demon inside him admitted he deceived him the entire time. None of that he though he new was real.

I would not recommend that book to anyone for a casual read. It will darken your soul. But I would recommend it to anyone who is tempted to go down that road. Better it be darkened a little rather than a lot.

Oh wow, that’s crazy. I will check it out. Thank you for that.

 

[seeker_of_God]

There is a book called “Hostage to the Devil”, by Malachi Martin. In it is a chapter called “the rooster and the tortoise”. In that chapter is a mystic, who among many other things participated in astral travel, with empirical results.

However he never left his body.

Compelled by Christ through an exorcist the demon inside him admitted he deceived him the entire time. None of that he though he new was real.

I would not recommend that book to anyone for a casual read. It will darken your soul. But I would recommend it to anyone who is tempted to go down that road. Better it be darkened a little rather than a lot.

I want to believe this book, but I’ve just read the preface and it’s already lost its credibility with me.

After doing some research on these forums, I found this which validates my suspicions:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=648895

The preface reminds me too much of the craze about Satanic rituals and human sacrifice back a few decades ago, which were mostly falsified. I can tell you that I’ve known a few Satanists, and none have done any sort of sacrifice, let alone human. Most of them were Atheists, not even believing in a literal Satan.

The thing about covens is completely false, and I know that from personal experience. Satanists don’t hang out in covens. That’s more like Wiccans or Pagans, and they are the furthest thing from Satanist. While what they do is wrong, they believe themselves to be practicing something that is good, in order to help themselves and others. To group all covens as Satanic reveals a shocking lack of knowledge on the part of the author.

I still appreciate your response, but now that I have seen what the book is really about, it does nothing to answer my question in the OP.

My question is about how to know what falls under Catholic mystic practice. Certainly there have been mystic saints, such as St. Teresa of Ávila, St. John of the Cross, and so forth. And some of their ideas were quite different, though approved by the Church. I’ve read some of the Interior Castle, and found it quite interesting.

They also had some different experiences…and though the Church was a bit cautious about them at first, they approved them in the end.

Coming from a new age background in the past, it’s been tough for me to figure out what’s OK and what’s not. That’s really all I’m trying to figure out. It’s been very difficult for me to change my entire world view after coming back to the Church, and I don’t think it’s possible for someone who’s been Catholic all their life to understand that struggle. So I appreciate any help that anyone can offer.

By the way, I want to point out that I’m not doubting the Church. I’m just trying to figure out how everything fits together.

 

[Semangelof]

The author, Malachi Martin, originally chose 10 exorcist cases. They are recorded in audio tapes, and he interviewed all persons involved. He reduced it to the 5 most interesting ones.

Those are not Martins beliefs, they are the priests alone. That particular priest was visited by Martin during the time the statement was said. Martin said in his inner monologue that he didn’t believe it. That priest was known by this colleagues to be undeveloped in sexuality. By some misfortune he was called upon to exorcise a transgendered satanist. He failed in the first attempt, awfully. He did finish it at the end but it payed a toll on his mental state. Martin was there as a journalist, he did not visit to admonish the broken mind of F. Gerald.

To my knowledge his book has never been condemned by Gabriele Amorth, the chief exorcist of Rome. The book goes in line with others such as F. Amorth and it is referenced as useful to the cause by assistants in exorcisms such as Adam Blai here Martin has said some scathing and controversial things but so has F. Amorth. There are many in the field who could deny his book, but they don’t, not to my knowledge. It would be easy to put an end to him with a wave of F. Amorths hand, but he has not done so. In fact they affirm each other in the claims others call controversial.

Now Martin does not accuse all covens and satanist as being the same. In the case of F. Gerald, the possessed is a general satanist and is pulled deeper into a more private circle of satanism to which the others are unaware. Father Martin is a journalist in this book, although he does speak from his own experience when interviewed, he doesn’t provide anything of himself to the book other than what is required to make a complete and flowing story of the event.

Here is a few pages from the chapter I mentioned. All that you read here is based off a video tape of the event.

bibliotecapleyades.net/vatican/esp_vatican27m.htm (If you change the “m” in vatican27m then you can see other pieces, go backward down the alphabet.

Based on what I know of him I cannot throw Martin out without, for the same reasons, throwing the chief exorcist of Rome out.

 

[Semangelof]

I know and identify this world by my senses. For some reason God put in place in me bonds that seat my spirit to my body to completely thrust my soul into this world.

But Christ came into my heart and now I live in two worlds. One in the flesh and one in the spirit. As a Christian the Holy Spirit is at work in my heart explaining the things of the spirit.
**
1 Corinthians 2:10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.**

However my heart reveals two types of revelations. Those from God and those from our enemy. My mind, through faith in God is what keeps my heart tied to the true Spirit. If I get the revelation to kill, my mind shows it to be folly because the true God has said “thou shalt not murder”.

This works well in this world. However when we submit to the spirit world almost all reason is lost. Our senses are not real, we can’t trust them. We have the Word of God to test spirits but even then we do not know their limitations when it comes to lying.

The most dangerous part is that we have to break the bonds that God placed in us from the start. We have to manually break them. We have to open the doors to reach the spirit world, but by doing so we open the door that protects us from the spirit world. We enter blindly, and dangerously.

I do not think the saints manually willed bi-location, levitation, or stigmata by ability. I think God caused it to happen.

I think to be a Christian mystic is to pray and pray and devote your heart to God. He will come and break the bonds, safeguarding the path to His will for you. If we do it manually we are just a mystic, not a Christian mystic. We can’t tinker around with ourselves, we just don’t know what we are doing.

You and I have openings in our bonds. It’s important to give it to God for him to use alone. It safe guards us, because those openings are also a weakness.

What God wishes us to know and be able to do will happen in their own time, increasingly as we devote ourselves to Him. The greatest miracle is the invisible transformation of the heart through Christ. It is from that miracle that other smaller miracles are enabled to proceed. The more our hearts transform the more the Spirit can enter, and the Spirit is our only guide to things of the spirit. But even so we must always test the spirit in our hearts by reason and the church no mater how saintly we may become.

There are general mystic paths one could take that might not be dangerous, but astral projection opens too many doors. It’s extremely dangerous. God is not opening those doors we are, and we are opening it to something or someplace that is not of Him.

 

[Tobias65]

I placed a hold on the book at my local library after you mentioned it on the other thread S. But after Seeker’s review, I was ready to cancel that! I read (and believed) enough books on satanic covens and SRA… I don’t need another. It sounds though like it might be worth looking at.

I’ve been a member of the deliverance team at my church. (That’s exorcism for us non-Catholics! ) I happen to live in Mike Warnke’s home town (author of The Satan Seller). As a teenager went to the same church as Jack Chick (from the very anti-Catholic Chick Tracks), and therefore found Rebbecca Brown’s books soon after he first started printing them. When both Warnke and Brown were proven to be frauds, I figured the only way to avoid these kinds of people that take advantage of Christians, is to investigate the occult myself.

I started with Theistic Satanism, and eventually moved on to Neo-paganism. My most pressing question was: How would I know if I’m following the wrong god? One of the first things I found on the internet was that my approach to spirituality is from the position of a mystic. Being in Charismatic churches I hadn’t realized just how few are the percentage of believers who take this approach. And now after researching this fully, I am convinced that I do indeed follow the right God. I am however, having difficulties re-assimilating into Christianity.

Question: Are you using Rebbecca Brown’s theory that nothing can be done by Man in the spiritual realm, unless an artificial link is established between the soul and spirit? This link can either be made by God, or by demons, according to her teachings. It is based upon Watchman Nee’s book about The Spiritual Man, and his ideas concerning the improper use of soul power (The Latent Power of the Soul.)

These ideas that are still quite popular amongst non-Catholics. I’m just wondering where you are coming from.

 

[seeker_of_God]

Tobias65, wow would I love to hear your story. Sound similar to me, minus the Satanism.

Question: Are you using Rebbecca Brown’s theory that nothing can be done by Man in the spiritual realm, unless an artificial link is established between the soul and spirit? This link can either be made by God, or by demons, according to her teachings. It is based upon Watchman Nee’s book about The Spiritual Man, and his ideas concerning the improper use of soul power (The Latent Power of the Soul.)

These ideas that are still quite popular amongst non-Catholics. I’m just wondering where you are coming from.

I’ve not heard of this theory, but i disagree with it. I think that we are perfectly capable to do things on our own. Whether we know what we are doing or not is up for question, but I do think we can act spiritually. But then again…I’m still recovering from a new age mindset.

 

[Tobias65]

I’ve not heard of this theory, but i disagree with it. I think that we are perfectly capable to do things on our own. Whether we know what we are doing or not is up for question, but I do think we can act spiritually. But then again…I’m still recovering from a new age mindset.

I disagree with it too.

A common Charismatic teaching is that a person can hear voices from three different possible sources when it comes to trying to hear the Voice of God. We might indeed hear God’s voice, or we could hear Satan’s voice instead. Or we could mistake our inner voice/imagination as the voice of God. (Satan is usually used as a catch all name for any spirit opposed to God.)

I place spiritual activity under those same three categories. If God inspires you to say or do something, then what happens falls into the category of being one of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. If you are inspired by a different spirit, then what you do is of another spirit and generally considered wrong.

There is a third possibility though too, if we reject the completely black and white spiritual realm model that most Christians believe. This would have to do with human capabilities. Humans are born with different talents. Some have musical talents, others are better at artwork or poetry. Some have none of these, but are good with numbers or spelling.

If we consider the psychic abilities as a purely human condition, then we can see that some people are born with the ability to see into the spiritual realm, while others can only hear, feel, taste, smell, or simply know things (as in the case with claircognizance.) These talents can be used, or they can be ignored. Just like artistic or any other kind of talent. I would say I started with claircognizance, but developed clairaudience over years of practice in hearing the voice of God.

As I investigated the occult world, I found these talents I had developed (using them for God), could also be used for other purposes. With my clairaudience I could easily hear the voices of other spirits; and as I had done previously for God, I could let them inspire me to speak on their behalf. Not that I cared to do that!

Speaking for the dead is forbidden. Speaking on behalf of other gods isn’t really encouraged in the Bible either. But the point here is that the talents are my own; and the difference between right and wrong is what I choose to do with my abilities. Just like a musician can play for God or for the Devil; or simply write songs using his own abilities alone.

I do not think the answer to my spiritual problems is to cut off my spiritual ears and make myself deaf. For some that might be a most radical solution, like cutting off a hand or gouging out an eye to gain entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven. But for me I know that with the same “ears” that I hear the voices of pagan gods and the dead, I also hear the sweet voice of the Lord God.