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mardukm
Guest
For me, because I don’t know if it’s “brother” or “sister.” I have also been specifically informed by a few of our Orthodox brethern not to address them in such terms.
Blessings,
Marduk
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Blessings,
Marduk
D
dzheremi
Guest
Mardukm,
Buddy…pal…akhy…did you read my post in response to Malphono? How I brought up Mar Maroun to make the point precisely that he is not referred to as a “mystic”? And maybe you even caught why I think that is illustrative of a difference in the Oriental tradition vis-a-vis the Western/Latin tradition. Because I think the same could be said about the Coptic saints, and I would suspect (but don’t really know, as I’m not any of these other things) about all Orthodox saints, OO or EO. That is the only point I’m making. I don’t think we have this idea 'mystics". Latins apparently do or else you wouldn’t be able to provide examples of particular “mystics” who, as you say, “represent an ideal”.
So I think it’s pretty hilarious that you would suggest that I am hung up on categories when I am openly admitting to not understanding this whole idea precisely because we don’t have it. Somehow having no idea = being hung up on categories? If anything, I’m hung up on** trying to understand** this whole “mysticism” thing because it was brought up to me, and it is foreign to my ways. I don’t have a frame of reference. I can’t look at St. Pigol or St. Abanoub or whoever and say “ah, yeah…those saints are like the saints you’re talking about”. Because again, we don’t even have this as a separately-conceived idea. (Is that better than “category”?)
It’s sort of funny, because when I first read the Desert Fathers (long before I actually went to a Coptic church), I was nervous because I expected it to be some kind of weird, otherworldly thing…y’know, it’s Egyptian, and Syrian, and Palestinian, and it’s in the desert and blahblahblah. I thought “well, this is going to be something I’m going to try to read and it’s going to come out very weird and surreal, and I’ll have to try something else”. I think that’s the approach that a lot of Western people like myself have to Oriental spirituality, since it is strongly identified with non-Western cultures in which it grew up (recall that the OO were largely non-Hellenized country-folk, even if their centers such as Alexandria were Hellenized, and hence the liturgies were originally in Greek; the 1983 English edition of the biography of St. Shenouda the Archimandrite gives a good description of the cultural background of the saint, who is famous for putting forth perhaps the first 100% native/non-Hellenized expression of Orthodoxy in Egypt – in Coptic).
So I was primed to have a very “different” experience…yet, as I began to read, I was bowled over by how utterly ordinary it all seemed. So and so went to see so and so. They had dinner together. The end. So and so came to see St. Anthony. The saint told them they should go work in the fields. They said they can’t. The saint suggested something else. The end. On and on and on. Of course, that’s a bit crass, as there is great spiritual wisdom and depth in the ordinary, but the point is that was the first time I saw that Orthodoxy isn’t mysticism at all. It’s not about living in a cave (though some do that), or atop a high pillar (though some do that), etc. So I would say rather than being obsessed with “categories”, after actually discovering the particular spirituality which is ordinary to the Orthodox tradition, I was freed from categories that had been imposed on me in the Latin experience and could live as the pilgrims who visited Saint Anthony lived: With a few simple words to think about and work on, and then after I’ve grasped their meanings as they apply to my life, I could maybe go back for a few more.
That’s all. Such simplicity should seem familiar to any traditional Latin, as I certainly observed a very similar way of life at the Benedictine abbey I mentioned earlier (and traditional Catholic masses, at least in the recordings I have, seem to embody a certain simplicity that is very much in line with a particularly Western/Latin interpretation of that same impulse). So the disconnect is not there, but rather as I wrote about in my post in response to Malphono’s post: That this spirituality is largely not what shapes the Latin Church. Instead you have things like “mortal” and “venial” sins, purgatory, different types of grace, etc. and all kinds of other things that the Orthodox have gotten along just fine without for 2000 years and counting.
So please do not be confused if I seem to harp on “categories”. It’s because we don’t have them, so they make no sense to me.
Buddy…pal…akhy…did you read my post in response to Malphono? How I brought up Mar Maroun to make the point precisely that he is not referred to as a “mystic”? And maybe you even caught why I think that is illustrative of a difference in the Oriental tradition vis-a-vis the Western/Latin tradition. Because I think the same could be said about the Coptic saints, and I would suspect (but don’t really know, as I’m not any of these other things) about all Orthodox saints, OO or EO. That is the only point I’m making. I don’t think we have this idea 'mystics". Latins apparently do or else you wouldn’t be able to provide examples of particular “mystics” who, as you say, “represent an ideal”.
So I think it’s pretty hilarious that you would suggest that I am hung up on categories when I am openly admitting to not understanding this whole idea precisely because we don’t have it. Somehow having no idea = being hung up on categories? If anything, I’m hung up on** trying to understand** this whole “mysticism” thing because it was brought up to me, and it is foreign to my ways. I don’t have a frame of reference. I can’t look at St. Pigol or St. Abanoub or whoever and say “ah, yeah…those saints are like the saints you’re talking about”. Because again, we don’t even have this as a separately-conceived idea. (Is that better than “category”?)
It’s sort of funny, because when I first read the Desert Fathers (long before I actually went to a Coptic church), I was nervous because I expected it to be some kind of weird, otherworldly thing…y’know, it’s Egyptian, and Syrian, and Palestinian, and it’s in the desert and blahblahblah. I thought “well, this is going to be something I’m going to try to read and it’s going to come out very weird and surreal, and I’ll have to try something else”. I think that’s the approach that a lot of Western people like myself have to Oriental spirituality, since it is strongly identified with non-Western cultures in which it grew up (recall that the OO were largely non-Hellenized country-folk, even if their centers such as Alexandria were Hellenized, and hence the liturgies were originally in Greek; the 1983 English edition of the biography of St. Shenouda the Archimandrite gives a good description of the cultural background of the saint, who is famous for putting forth perhaps the first 100% native/non-Hellenized expression of Orthodoxy in Egypt – in Coptic).
So I was primed to have a very “different” experience…yet, as I began to read, I was bowled over by how utterly ordinary it all seemed. So and so went to see so and so. They had dinner together. The end. So and so came to see St. Anthony. The saint told them they should go work in the fields. They said they can’t. The saint suggested something else. The end. On and on and on. Of course, that’s a bit crass, as there is great spiritual wisdom and depth in the ordinary, but the point is that was the first time I saw that Orthodoxy isn’t mysticism at all. It’s not about living in a cave (though some do that), or atop a high pillar (though some do that), etc. So I would say rather than being obsessed with “categories”, after actually discovering the particular spirituality which is ordinary to the Orthodox tradition, I was freed from categories that had been imposed on me in the Latin experience and could live as the pilgrims who visited Saint Anthony lived: With a few simple words to think about and work on, and then after I’ve grasped their meanings as they apply to my life, I could maybe go back for a few more.
That’s all. Such simplicity should seem familiar to any traditional Latin, as I certainly observed a very similar way of life at the Benedictine abbey I mentioned earlier (and traditional Catholic masses, at least in the recordings I have, seem to embody a certain simplicity that is very much in line with a particularly Western/Latin interpretation of that same impulse). So the disconnect is not there, but rather as I wrote about in my post in response to Malphono’s post: That this spirituality is largely not what shapes the Latin Church. Instead you have things like “mortal” and “venial” sins, purgatory, different types of grace, etc. and all kinds of other things that the Orthodox have gotten along just fine without for 2000 years and counting.
So please do not be confused if I seem to harp on “categories”. It’s because we don’t have them, so they make no sense to me.
D
dzheremi
Guest
Maybe I’m just naive on this point, but this thread is the first I’ve heard of Ste Thérèse de Lisieux referred to as a “mystic”
She was one of the ones recommended to me by the RCIA director at the church I attended in Oregon, along with St. John of the Cross. Maybe she doesn’t fit there. Again, I don’t get this whole “mystic” thing in the first place, so I’m more than likely wrong to have associated her with it.
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Marybeloved
Guest
Perhaps you’re mixing two St. Teresa’s, both doctors. The one normally recommended along with John of the Cross is Teresa of Avila- a great spiritual authority in Latin Catholicism and (along with John of the Cross) founder of the Carmelites (reformed).
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TrueLight
Guest
Is the term “ascetic” in Eastern language?
As I said earlier a lot of Latin’s just go about trying to live lives that are pleasing to God. They may not spend hours in contemplation like some of the mystics did, but they pray and try to do what is right.
Now I have a question for the Orthodox and EC’s. How does the average person in the pew approach their spirituality?
Are they all concentrating on achieving union with God? Are they living their lives simply, following their fasts, attend DL and raising their families?
That is exactly what the Latin is doing.
As I said earlier a lot of Latin’s just go about trying to live lives that are pleasing to God. They may not spend hours in contemplation like some of the mystics did, but they pray and try to do what is right.
Now I have a question for the Orthodox and EC’s. How does the average person in the pew approach their spirituality?
Are they all concentrating on achieving union with God? Are they living their lives simply, following their fasts, attend DL and raising their families?
That is exactly what the Latin is doing.
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dzheremi
Guest
Could be? I remember reading St. Teresa because it was in Spanish (didn’t often get to use that in Oregon, you see), but the other one’s writings in English, since I don’t read French. And from John of the Cross, “The Dark Night of the Soul” (after asking my FOC what the heck he was talking about when he used that term with me; hahaha).
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mardukm
Guest
Ascetism is a big part of the Oriental Tradition. We recognize the ideal as lived by the monks, but everyone is expected to share in this life of ascetism.
Blessings,
Marduk
D
dzheremi
Guest
I would echo what mardukm has said. Only the monks may be completely devoted to without distraction (after all, such is the life they have chosen to live), but every person is expected to do what they can do to shape their lives by the keeping of the the fasts (every Wednesday and Friday, plus the seasonal fasts such as those for Lent, Nativity, the Ninevites, etc), regularly reading the Bible and the Agpeya (the Coptic Book of the Hours), attending Vespers and Liturgy, giving alms, etc. You’ll see many Copts carry their Agpeyas with them in order to pray from it at the appropriate hour even if they are out and about, for instance. So I would say rather than having a separate “prayer life” (in the sense of “over here I keep my prayer life” or whatever 
), it is integrated into the daily life to a very high degree.
Here is one Coptic Orthodox individual’s take on it, which I agree with (though I don’t have such a nice set-up here in my home, unfortunately; the only actual icons that I own are Russian, which my grandmother brought back from a trip to Russia in 1991, but I have a few of those little laminated card things [like the one in the video of HH Pope Cyril VI, which you can see when he is talking about the cross he uses during prayer; I have a cross like that, too, sent to me by a friend who got it from a monastery in Egypt] of Coptic saints like St. Macarius, which I’ll incorporate just like icons in my daily prayer).
), it is integrated into the daily life to a very high degree.Here is one Coptic Orthodox individual’s take on it, which I agree with (though I don’t have such a nice set-up here in my home, unfortunately; the only actual icons that I own are Russian, which my grandmother brought back from a trip to Russia in 1991, but I have a few of those little laminated card things [like the one in the video of HH Pope Cyril VI, which you can see when he is talking about the cross he uses during prayer; I have a cross like that, too, sent to me by a friend who got it from a monastery in Egypt] of Coptic saints like St. Macarius, which I’ll incorporate just like icons in my daily prayer).
M
malphono
Guest
Well, I guess I don’t get the “mystic thing” either, or at least not the whole picture of it.All of this leads me to remember the story of the one Maronite “mystic” I’m familiar with: her name was Hindiyeh (do a find for Hindiyeh on the page). It’s actually an interesting account … replete with Roman interference in internal affairs etc.) Now, whether I’d actually consider her to have been a “mystic” is up for grabs. I tend to agree with you
about the whole classification thing. 
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TrueLight
Guest
Good answer. I would say it is the same with Latin mysticism.
We are all called to contemplate and to seek union with God. However, there have been Saints who have really focused their lives on this type of relationship with God. And so we call them mystics.
But we are all called to do that.
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dzheremi
Guest
^^^ see, this guy gets it.
All of this leads me to remember the story of the one Maronite “mystic” I’m familiar with: her name was Hindiyeh (do a find for Hindiyeh on the page). It’s actually an interesting account … replete with Roman interference in internal affairs etc.) Now, whether I’d actually consider her to have been a “mystic” is up for grabs. I tend to agree with you
Thanks for the story of Hindiyeh. Very interesting, what with the whole controversy growing to the point where the Roman Pope censured the Patriarch. Yikes. Maybe it wasn’t so outlandish after all to read, as I have in certain 18th century sources (such as Schaff; see here) that there once were Maronites in certain places who abhorred Rome. I had always assumed that this was probably a mix-up on the part of Western authors (maybe they were talking about the Syrian Orthodox, or the Nestorians, or some other Syriac Church), but I dunno…with friends like these, eh…
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TrueLight
Guest
I like that altar/icon corner or whatever you call it.I would echo what mardukm has said. Only the monks may be completely devoted to without distraction (after all, such is the life they have chosen to live), but every person is expected to do what they can do to shape their lives by the keeping of the the fasts (every Wednesday and Friday, plus the seasonal fasts such as those for Lent, Nativity, the Ninevites, etc), regularly reading the Bible and the Agpeya (the Coptic Book of the Hours), attending Vespers and Liturgy, giving alms, etc. You’ll see many Copts carry their Agpeyas with them in order to pray from it at the appropriate hour even if they are out and about, for instance. So I would say rather than having a separate “prayer life” (in the sense of “over here I keep my prayer life” or whatever
Here is one Coptic Orthodox individual’s take on it, which I agree with (though I don’t have such a nice set-up here in my home, unfortunately; the only actual icons that I own are Russian, which my grandmother brought back from a trip to Russia in 1991, but I have a few of those little laminated card things [like the one in the video of HH Pope Cyril VI, which you can see when he is talking about the cross he uses during prayer; I have a cross like that, too, sent to me by a friend who got it from a monastery in Egypt] of Coptic saints like St. Macarius, which I’ll incorporate just like icons in my daily prayer).
It’s beautiful. I want some of those little icons. Where can I get them?
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dzheremi
Guest
There are a lot of places you can buy icons, though I’ve never done so online. This Orthodox bookstore has a good selection of the type of icon you see in that video, which is pretty standard in the Coptic Church these days (earlier Coptic icons didn’t look quite like that; the new style is pretty heavily influenced by Byzantine art, which is not a comment on its quality). I ordered a few books from there once, and they were timely and professional in getting them to me.
L
lssanjose
Guest
Well,
- It’s a habit I’m trying to adopt.
- I don’t know the proper gender of some posters.
- It’s a habit I’m trying to adopt, which means I’m inconsistent, and forgetful.
L
lssanjose
Guest
Thanks, for sharing this, brother.I would echo what mardukm has said. Only the monks may be completely devoted to without distraction (after all, such is the life they have chosen to live), but every person is expected to do what they can do to shape their lives by the keeping of the the fasts (every Wednesday and Friday, plus the seasonal fasts such as those for Lent, Nativity, the Ninevites, etc), regularly reading the Bible and the Agpeya (the Coptic Book of the Hours), attending Vespers and Liturgy, giving alms, etc. You’ll see many Copts carry their Agpeyas with them in order to pray from it at the appropriate hour even if they are out and about, for instance. So I would say rather than having a separate “prayer life” (in the sense of “over here I keep my prayer life” or whatever
Here is one Coptic Orthodox individual’s take on it, which I agree with (though I don’t have such a nice set-up here in my home, unfortunately; the only actual icons that I own are Russian, which my grandmother brought back from a trip to Russia in 1991, but I have a few of those little laminated card things [like the one in the video of HH Pope Cyril VI, which you can see when he is talking about the cross he uses during prayer; I have a cross like that, too, sent to me by a friend who got it from a monastery in Egypt] of Coptic saints like St. Macarius, which I’ll incorporate just like icons in my daily prayer).
Lester
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TrueLight
Guest
Does anyone get what I’m saying here?
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Bookcat
Guest
on the idea of suchSuch is very good for the life of prayer
My wife and I found that once we set aside a room as our oratory (influenced by Carthusian cell)-- such was a wonderful way to seek God more in silence and solitude or pray as a family.
A great little section in the Catechism:
Places favorable for prayer
2691 The church, the house of God, is the proper place for the liturgical prayer of the parish community. It is also the privileged place for adoration of the real presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. The choice of a favorable place is not a matter of indifference for true prayer.
- For personal prayer, this can be a “prayer corner” with the Sacred Scriptures and icons, in order to be there, in secret, before our Father.48 In a Christian family, this kind of little oratory fosters prayer in common.
- In regions where monasteries exist, the vocation of these communities is to further the participation of the faithful in the Liturgy of the Hours and to provide necessary solitude for more intense personal prayer.49
- Pilgrimages evoke our earthly journey toward heaven and are traditionally very special occasions for renewal in prayer. For pilgrims seeking living water, shrines are special places for living the forms of Christian prayer “in Church.”
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TrueLight
Guest
That’s awesome. I really want to create an altar corner too, but I haven’t yet.
Such is very good for the life of prayer
My wife and I found that once we set aside a room as our oratory (influenced by Carthusian cell)-- such was a wonderful way to seek God more in silence and solitude or pray as a family.
L
lssanjose
Guest
Brother/sister, don’t we all? it costs $$$… although BusterMartin (i’ll have to dig his PM up) has advised me of ways to save on it. Although I’ve found some decent places (at least I think so)
P
Peter_J
Guest
I don’t really call her either, generally, but if I did it would be “Sister TrueLight” rather than “Brother TrueLight”.
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