Mystics/visions of Hell etc

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Hello everyone! I’ve recently been exploring Josepha Menendez a bit, and also Saint Faustina…I love the divine mercy emphasised in both…

I’m not so keen on the images of Hell! Now - I totally and completely realize just because “I” am not happy with something - doesn’t mean its not true - but nonetheless, I’m exploring different ways of understanding these visions.

One Catholic friend/mentor of mine (who is a very very committed and knowledgeable catholic) said that I can look at any of the visions as representations or symbols…I can take them seriously while not taking them literally…

I do not believe Hell is a place of endless torment - I just don’t think an all merciful God would exist with that also existing…however I can understand Hell as the absence of God, wilfully chosen by someone with their free will…

I’m trying to square that with the vision of the mystics…

Would love opinions!

Blessings!
 
When pondering Hell look to the words of Christ, who speaks about Hell several times. He doesn’t pull punches on the subject. At Mark 9:43 he calls Hell a fire that is unquenchable. I’m sure the Church allows a range of opinions on the subject but I don’t think we can reason our way out of the words of Christ on this one. Whether mystics’ visions are literal, however the “fire” we hear about is interpreted, we cannot forget that Hell is the just punishment for sin and that God is just. I wouldn’t say I’m comfortable with the idea of eternal torment, but if I were comfortable with it then it wouldn’t really be Hell. That’s just my two cents though.
 
zaida said:
I do not believe Hell is a place of endless torment - I just don’t think an all merciful God would exist with that also existing…however I can understand Hell as the absence of God, wilfully chosen by someone with their free will…

I’m trying to square that with the vision of the mystics…
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I’m sorry, but you can’t square these two positions. Hell is a place of pain and suffering. Jesus makes this undeniably clear.

There are two primary sufferings in Hell: The Suffering of Loss, and the Suffering of Sense.

Matthew 25:41
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
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The Suffering of Loss is the loss of the Beatific Vision. It is the loss of knowing that you forfeited an eternity of bliss and happiness, and instead chose to suffer eternally. This is, by far, the greatest pain of Hell.

The Suffering of Sense is the pain that accompanies the fires of Hell. This is what most people think of when they think of Hell.

For more reading on the subject:
Catholic Encyclopedia: Hell

I understand why you have trouble with the concept of Hell, many people do. However, to ignore the reality of Hell; to lessen its horrors, can only serve to make you more likely to go there.
 
Hell is 1) conscious, 2) eternal, 3) irrevocable, and 4) populated.

It is also widely understood in private revelation that the agony of hell makes extreme earthly pain trifling in comparison, but that the extent of agony is nonetheless reduced by existing in hell instead of in the presence of God, which would be unimaginably horrible for a reprobate.
 
zaida said:
Hello everyone! I’ve recently been exploring Josepha Menendez a bit, and also Saint Faustina…I love the divine mercy emphasised in both…

I’m not so keen on the images of Hell! Now - I totally and completely realize just because “I” am not happy with something - doesn’t mean its not true - but nonetheless, I’m exploring different ways of understanding these visions.

One Catholic friend/mentor of mine (who is a very very committed and knowledgeable catholic) said that I can look at any of the visions as representations or symbols…I can take them seriously while not taking them literally…

I do not believe Hell is a place of endless torment - I just don’t think an all merciful God would exist with that also existing…however I can understand Hell as the absence of God, wilfully chosen by someone with their free will…

I’m trying to square that with the vision of the mystics…

Would love opinions!

Blessings!
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olrl.org/doctrine/cry.shtml
 
The Apocalypse of Peter is a very early Christian 2nd century text that was cited as scripture by some early Christian bishops. It gives pretty good view of heaven and hell. I prefer the longer Ethiopic version that is probably more true to the original, opposed to the fragmentary Koine Greek version.
 
Thank you for all the (name removed by moderator)ut…

I know there are very many opinions on this…I choose to follow, simply, the catechism…hell is a loss of the presence of God…and I also choose to follow the (acceptable) Catholic belief that there are few, if any, in it…because Gods love is so overwhelming, so beyond any human love - I have trust that He made a world where most of His children go back to Him. (even if after a very long time in purgatory!) Of course I “know” nothing - and leave it in Gods hands.

I realise that my view wont be everyone’s - but it seems to have some good backers!Father Barron…Balthassar…De Lubac (I think…)…some of the early church fathers…

Blessings everyone!
 
What follows is personally pure opinion.

A mystic who has a vision of some people in hell is not the same thing as actually seeing them: those individuals have not had the resurrection of the body, so the only thing that is in hell is their soul. I have yet to see anyone explain that a visionary seeing hell actually saw a place, as places are physical things, just as bodies are.

That is not to say that the mystic did not somehow “see” individual souls. But hell is a state of being, not a physical place.

Keep in mind that, for example, people have had visions of Mary; and often they have been culturally characteristic; that is, for example, Our Lady of Guadalupe appearing as an indigenous person of central America. She did not appear as a Jewish person, or an Anglo Saxon person…

As far as “fire”, one needs to remember that “fire” as a means of pain and punishment goes back well before the time of Christ. Fire was both extremely necessary for survival, and at the same time, an extremely dangerous matter. One who was seriously burned likely was going to die either from infection or from loss of bodily fluids; and the death was going to be extremely painful. Thus fire brings up the image of someone in extreme pain.

Not everyone experiences meeting someone else who is what is politely referred to as a “tortured soul”. But if you ever come across someone who is filled with hate and loathing (most often of themselves, and spilling over to everyone they come in contact with), someone who is entirely self-centered and has no concept whatsoever of being other directed. then you will have the opportunity to observe someone who is in extreme mental and emotional pain. On several occasions I have met such individuals and it is a chilling and sobering experience.

God does not send anyone to hell. He allows us the freedom to choose self over Him, and He is just in honoring our choice.

Theologians, true to the Magisterium, have wrestled with the question of the issues of God’s mercy and God’s justice, and some have posited that few go to hell. Scripture, and Christ specifically, seem to say otherwise. Ultimately it (others’ salvation or loss thereof) is not our problem; if God in His mercy provides something which would turn an individual away from self and towards God, in that last instant of dying, that is between God and the individual. However we each need to approach our own personal judgement with fear and trembling, as we have the options to sin or to be reconciled to God. God doesn’t play “gotcha!”. We choose.
 
OTJM - That’s a very powerful response…thank you! the only thing I disagree with is it not being “our business” - I feel that the salvation of the people I Iove is very much my business as the thought of us being separated at death is unbearable…so I pray for them and for God to soften their hearts, and for the ones who have died without any seeming connection to God - I pray that God came to them and had them choose Him in their dying moments.

Interesting discussion!
 
zaida said:
OTJM - That’s a very powerful response…thank you! the only thing I disagree with is it not being “our business” - I feel that the salvation of the people I Iove is very much my business as the thought of us being separated at death is unbearable…so I pray for them and for God to soften their hearts, and for the ones who have died without any seeming connection to God - I pray that God came to them and had them choose Him in their dying moments.

Interesting discussion!
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I do not mean to say we do not pray for the dead - I was brought up on the concept. Rather, we should not dwell on the issue but rather trust them to God, and realize the Church does not comment on any of the dead, except the saints.

Been to too many funerals in the last 30 - 40 years where purgatory is no longer posited.
 
Not believing in the existence of Hell will not make it cease to exist.
 
JEGirl said:
How do we know it is populated?
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Revelation 20 implies that there will be people who are resurrected out of Hell at the end of time and sent into the lake of fire. So even if it’s not populated now, it seems that it will be by that point.

In Matthew 7 Our Blessed Lord predicts that many will enter by the wide gate that leads to perdition, whereas only a few will enter the narrow gate that leads to life. That is still not technically evidence that it is currently populated but it makes it seem likely.
 
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