Myterdom of Peter

[Eden]

BrianH:

Ok. So only a Pope sends letters?!?!

Why did Paul send letters then? He was not a Pope.
Why did Polycarp send letters? He was not a Pope.
Why did Cyprian send letters? He was not a Pope.
John DID send letters, not to the Romans though. He was not a Pope.

One other huge problem with what you just said as well.
There is not a firm date for when Clement was written.
There is not a firm date when John died.

BH

Bishops send letters all the time. It does not detract from or compete with the pope’s authority as long as they are in line with Catholic teaching. In fact, this is the role of bishops in their regions. I went to the News Link on EWTN for the latest examples of bishops writing letters or articles for the people. I’m just putting one as an example:

*24-February-2006-- Catholic News Agency *ewtn.com/images/printer.gif

BISHOP SAYS ‘PRO-CHOICE’ CATHOLICS ADHERE TO ‘RIGHT-TO-MURDER’ HERESY

LOS ANGELES, February 24 (CNA) - Bishop Robert Vasa of Baker, Oregon, has warned the faithful that Catholic politicians or voters who are pro-abortion commit heresy against the Fifth Commandment’s prohibition of murder.

“Bishop Vasa is to be praised for his clear, courageous, and firm defense of the integrity of the Fifth Commandment and the most innocent of human life,” said canon lawyer Marc Balestrieri. Balestrieri serves as president of the nonprofit organization De Fide, which was established in 2004 to combat the “right-to-murder” heresy and other grave crimes within the Church.

In an article in the Catholic Sentinel, Bishop Baker wrote: “There is a point at which passive ‘tolerance’ allows misleading teachings to be spread and propagated, thus confusing or even misleading the faithful about the truths of the Church . . . There is a very strong word, which still exists in our Church, which most of us are too ‘gentle’ to use. The word is ‘heresy’.”

“Pro-choice” Catholics “reject the clear and consistent teaching of the Church,” the bishop wrote. The bishop’s strong stance followed on the heels of a heresy trial adjudicated last month in the Diocese of San Bernardino. According to Balestrieri, the bishop’s words “lend further weight to canonical action now advancing against several prominent U.S. politicians.”

If you were reading this 1,000 years from now, would you try say that Bishop Baker had the same authority as the Bishop of Rome because he wrote an article correcting American Catholics?

 

[Eden]

catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/bible/svend-funeral.htm

The “Heos Who?” link doesn’t work in my original post. Hope this one does.

 

[BrianH]

BH, you have used Eric Svendsen as a source for the Easter controversy. I do not accept his interpretation of Christianity because he has been academically discredited. Firstly, he is not a “Doctor”:

Where? I used Jason I thought.

BH

PS
If you want to argue with me about regionally, DETC, or unaccredited schools go over to Degree Info. I am BrianH on that forum as well.

 

[BrianH]

Eden:

Bishops send letters all the time. It does not detract from or compete with the pope’s authority as long as they are in line with Catholic teaching. In fact, this is the role of bishops in their regions. I went to the News Link on EWTN for the latest examples of bishops writing letters or articles for the people. I’m just putting one as an example:

*24-February-2006-- Catholic News Agency *ewtn.com/images/printer.gif

BISHOP SAYS ‘PRO-CHOICE’ CATHOLICS ADHERE TO ‘RIGHT-TO-MURDER’ HERESY

LOS ANGELES, February 24 (CNA) - Bishop Robert Vasa of Baker, Oregon, has warned the faithful that Catholic politicians or voters who are pro-abortion commit heresy against the Fifth Commandment’s prohibition of murder.

“Bishop Vasa is to be praised for his clear, courageous, and firm defense of the integrity of the Fifth Commandment and the most innocent of human life,” said canon lawyer Marc Balestrieri. Balestrieri serves as president of the nonprofit organization De Fide, which was established in 2004 to combat the “right-to-murder” heresy and other grave crimes within the Church.

In an article in the Catholic Sentinel, Bishop Baker wrote: “There is a point at which passive ‘tolerance’ allows misleading teachings to be spread and propagated, thus confusing or even misleading the faithful about the truths of the Church . . . There is a very strong word, which still exists in our Church, which most of us are too ‘gentle’ to use. The word is ‘heresy’.”

“Pro-choice” Catholics “reject the clear and consistent teaching of the Church,” the bishop wrote. The bishop’s strong stance followed on the heels of a heresy trial adjudicated last month in the Diocese of San Bernardino. According to Balestrieri, the bishop’s words “lend further weight to canonical action now advancing against several prominent U.S. politicians.”

If you were reading this 1,000 years from now, would you try say that Bishop Baker had the same authority as the Bishop of Rome because he wrote an article correcting American Catholics?

We agree. Of course they do. That is why Jim’s point is not applicable.

 

[Eden]

BrianH:

Where? I used Jason I thought.

BH

PS
If you want to argue with me about regionally, DETC, or unaccredited schools go over to Degree Info. I am BrianH on that forum as well.

Ntrmin was “founded” by Eric Svendsen. Any research he sponsors on his site, including from his former contributor Jason Engwer is not credible to me.

Why would I be interested in discussing the general topic of unaccredited schools? I’m discusses a specific person, Eric Svendsen who claims to have a doctoral degree. That “degree” is from a school that requires only 5,000 pounds (was written in British pounds on the site) and the submission of an acceptable thesis. The thesis is not required to be written to buy a degree.

What do you mean by “if you want to argue with me about regionally”? Also, can you not stand on your own with your arguments on this forum? Why do I need to move to another one to discuss this with you?

 

[Eden]

BrianH:

We agree. Of course they do. That is why Jim’s point is not applicable.

Where in his quote does Jim say that “only popes” write letters and how does the fact that bishops write letters prove your statement that the pope was not the final authority in the days of the Easter controversy?

 

[BrianH]

Eden:

You really have no case here in stating that Rome was not following the traditions of the Apostles.

I quoted Irenaues It is not my case. It was his.

"For neither was Anicetus able to persuade Polycarp not to observe it, inasmuch as he had always done so in company with John the disciple of our Lord and the other apostles with whom he had associated; "

Lets break it down.
John is an Apostle. It also says he associated with other apostles. They were following the Nisan 14 date. Rome was doing something different. How can you disagree with this?

The Catholic Church has maintained a pure “deposit of faith” with the protection of the Holy Spirit for 2,000 years. Although I see that deception is a tactic frequently used by Protestant apologists, there is no need for the Church to deceive. It is Truth.

Who said the Catholic church is using deception?
New Advent spins. That is not the Catholic church though. Not sure what this means. I am sure the Catholic church believes what it is teaching, obviously. I am really not sure what you are getting at here?

you will find that the east claimed John and the west claimed tradition of Peter and Paul in this matter:

I do not follow you. You just said

“(This means all BUT the Asiatic churches followed the tradition of the Apostles and celebrated Easter on SUNDAY including Rome. The Asiatic celebration of Easter was based on an older JEWISH custom not from the Apostles.)”

You said that it was not of the Apostles and then you turn around and said the “east claimed John”. **Irenaeus ** said Polycarp and the bishop of Rome disagreed because Polycarp had learned it from the Apostle John

; Cf. J. B. Pitra, Spilegium Solesmense).

It appears to me that neither the ancients nor the moderns had much rational foundation for their debate … for with Christianity the obligation to observe the Mosaic Law and its ceremonial types ceased… Neither Christ nor His apostles enjoined this feast on us by any law

… but the feast of Easter came to be observed in each place according to the customs of that place … the Quartodecimans affirm that the observance of the fourteenth day was delivered to them by the apostle John while the Romans and those in the Western parts assure us their usage originated with the apostles Peter and Paul: but neither of these parties can produce any written testimony in confirmation of their claims. I am therefore of opinion that they who agree in faith differ according to custom and usage. (Text: PG. 67.625=LNPF 2,2.130

Irenaues is the source of the East’s view from Polycarp through the Apostle John. I dont think anyone can argue against that.

BH

 

[Eden]

Did you not read that the source of the Western tradition of celebrating Easter on Sunday is from Peter and Paul?

You still have not done the following:

1. Illustrated how Pope Victor was not the final authority in the Easter controversy
2. Illustrated how the tradition in Rome and Alexandria of celebrating Easter on Sunday was not from apostolic tradition
3. Illustrated how studying St. Polycarp will reveal that the Catholic Church is apostate (that’s another thread of course)

 

[BrianH]

Eden:

Where in his quote does Jim say that “only popes” write letters

How do you interpret this?

"But I will just note that John the Apostle was not Pope. That would seem to be why Clement of Rome sent his epistles to instruct and correct the Corinthians rather than John. "

and how does the fact that bishops write letters prove your statement that the pope was not the final authority in the days of the Easter controversy?

Eden
I never said that. Jim was saying that Clement sent his epistles instead of John because Clement was a Pope. I correctly pointed out that lots of people who were not Popes sent letters.

BH

 

[BrianH]

Eden:

Did you not read that the source of the Western tradition of celebrating Easter on Sunday is from Peter and Paul?

What year was that source Eden? What year was my source?

1. Illustrated how Pope Victor was not the final authority in the Easter controversy

Sure I did. His edict was ignored. Nothing happened.

1. Illustrated how the tradition in Rome and Alexandria of celebrating Easter on Sunday was not from apostolic tradition

It could be sure. The west does not have a documented source. All I wanted to illustrate was that Rome followed a tradition that was not from John. Which it seems you agree with now.

1. Illustrated how studying St. Polycarp will reveal that the Catholic Church is apostate

I would never call the Catholic church apostate.
BH

 

[Eden]

BrianH:

Eden:

How do you interpret this?

"*But I will just note that John the Apostle was not Pope. That would seem to be why Clement of Rome sent his epistles to instruct and correct the Corinthians rather than John. " *

The fact that Pope Clement was sending epistles instructing the Corinithians - people clearly outside his domain of Rome - shows he had the universal authority to address this region.

Eden
I never said that. Jim was saying that Clement sent his epistles instead of John because Clement was a Pope. I correctly pointed out that lots of people who were not Popes sent letters.

BH

I think you, Jim and I all agree that lots of people who were not pope sent letters.

Can you answer these questions?

Who was pope at the time of the Easter controversy?

Who was Anicetus and why was he being compared to Pope Victor regarding the Easter traditions of the Asiatic churches?

Who was asked to raise the excommunication put in place on the Asiatic churches?

Who had the authority to raise that ban?

Did more than one bishop representing Rome and Alexandria’s tradition place excommunication on the Asiatic churches?

Why did a bishop from the Asiatic churches not excommunicate Rome over the issue but instead had representatives such as Polycarp persuading the Bishop of Rome to rethink the issue?

Who let the dogs out?

I know the answers to all but the last one.

 

[Eden]

BrianH:

Eden:

Eden
I never said that. Jim was saying that Clement sent his epistles instead of John because Clement was a Pope. I correctly pointed out that lots of people who were not Popes sent letters.

BH

How is Jim’s post relevant to your claim that Pope Victor was not the preeminent authority in the Church at the time of the Easter controversy or your claim that the tradition of Easter and Sunday did not come from Peter and Paul?

 

[BrianH]

Eden:

BrianH:

The fact that Pope Clement was sending epistles instructing the Corinithians - people clearly outside his domain of Rome - shows he had the universal authority to address this region.

Polycarp was out of his domain if you mean geography.
Clement did not have authority outside of Rome. He never appeals to his “papal authority” in that whole letter. I am sure you have read it. Just like Paul. Just like Polycarp. Clement had stature. He was a tremendous man much more humble then some other more famous people.

I think you, Jim and I all agree that lots of people who were not pope sent letters.

I cannot speak for Jim but we agree, yes

Can you answer these questions?

Who was pope at the time of the Easter controversy?

Pope. That is your term I use out of respect to you guys. We know Victor was bishop of Rome.

Who was Anicetus and why was he being compared to Pope Victor regarding the Easter traditions of the Asiatic churches?

Anicetus was a bishop of Rome as well. He could not convince Polycarp to abandon the teachings of the Apostle John. Unlike Victor, he did not overassert his authority.

Who was asked to raise the excommunication put in place on the Asiatic churches?

Victor

Who had the authority to raise that ban?

Victor.

Did more than one bishop representing Rome and Alexandria place excommunication on the Asiatic churches (for instance, both Rome and Alexandria celebrated on Sunday)?

I am not sure of the question. Only Victor overstepped his boundaries if that is what you mean.

Why did a bishop from the Asiatic churches not excommunicate Rome over the issue but instead had representatives such as Polycarp persuading the Bishop of Rome to rethink the issue?

We do not know if they were representatives. Asia ignored him. I am sure they knew that the model of the early church did not have bishops excommunicating each other.
Brian

Who let the dogs out?

I know the answers to all but the last one.

 

[Eden]

BrianH:

What year was that source Eden? What year was my source?

Which source? The edited version from Eric Svendsen’s site or the edited version from the African Biography site? I don’t know what year the authors borrowed quotes from the ancient document to write their articles and post them on the websites. Do you?

Sure I did. His edict was ignored. Nothing happened.

It was an excommunication. What happened was, the Asiatic churches remained in union with Rome and Alexandria, i.e. there was no continued excommunication. If the excommunication had not been lifted, the Asiatic churches would have been in schism. Instead we have many saints from that time who have been canonized by the Church.

It could be sure. The west does not have a documented source. All I wanted to illustrate was that Rome followed a tradition that was not from John. Which it seems you agree with now.

I never disagreed that the tradition was not from St. John. I disagreed that the tradition of Rome was not apostolic. The Asiatic churches were following a Jewish custom.

I would never call the Catholic church apostate.
BH

You stated that the Church had strayed so far from the teachings of the time of Polycarp and you had evidence. If you are saying that the Church has not maintained the teachings of the “deposit of faith” handed to us through apostolic succesion, you are saying it is apostate.

 

[BrianH]

Eden:

BrianH:

How is Jim’s post relevant to your claim that Pope Victor was not the preeminent authority in the Church at the time of the Easter controversy or your claim that the tradition of Easter and Sunday did not come from Peter and Paul?

It is not. I thought I had already said that.

He was using the disproven Clement was Pope because he wrote instead of John. I answered this claim by showing that lots of people write letters and we have no firm date for Clements letter and Johns death. I get tired of that argument because it is very very weak, nothing against Jim, just his argument, and lots of others have used this as well.

BH

 

[JimG]

Of course I agree that it is not only Popes who write letters to their people. Bishops do as well. Clement wrote authoritatively to the Corinthians, in a manner suggesting that he had a right to do so; even though the presence of a living apostle at the time might have impelled the Corinthians to seek the counsel of the Apostle rather than the bishop of Rome. The fact that they did not do so indicates to me, at least, that they recognized Clement’s authority.

"Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in no small danger.” Source: catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9304frs.asp

 

[Eden]

Clement had stature.

He had stature because he had the authority as the successor to St. Peter upon whom the Church was built. He did not specifically appeal to his papal authority because it was understood. He was not writing the letter for future readers who were denying the legitimacy of the papacy. He wrote it to people who understood his position.

 

[BrianH]

QUOTE=Eden]Which source? The edited version from Eric Svendsen’s site or the edited version from the African Biography site? I don’t know what year the authors borrowed quotes from the ancient document to write their articles and post them on the websites. Do you?

Irenaues is my source.
Some guy from 400 something is ours. I am sticking to the primary sources Eden

It was an excommunication. What happened was, the Asiatic churches remained in union with Rome and Alexandria, i.e. there was no continued excommunication. If the excommunication had not been lifted,

The excommunication being lifted is open to a lot of debate.Lets go with primary sources if you are contending that.

I never disagreed that the tradition was not from St. John. I disagreed that the tradition of Rome was not apostolic. The Asiatic churches were following a Jewish custom.

What you said:

The Asiatic celebration of Easter was based on an older JEWISH custom not from the Apostles.

John is an apostle. How can you say, “not from the apostles”.

 

[BrianH]

JimG:

Of course I agree that it is not only Popes who write letters to their people. Bishops do as well. Clement wrote authoritatively to the Corinthians, in a manner suggesting that he had a right to do so; even though the presence of a living apostle at the time might have impelled the Corinthians to seek the counsel of the Apostle rather than the bishop of Rome. The fact that they did not do so indicates to me, at least, that they recognized Clement’s authority.

"Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in no small danger.” Source: catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9304frs.asp

Jim
Prove when Clement was written.
Prove when John died
or please quit saying something that is not proven. Does that seem reasonable?
Lets go further, prove where John was. Prove that at the age of, who knows how old, he could have answered. Prove they did not try. Do you see what I am getting at?
BH

 

[BrianH]

Eden:

He had stature because he had the authority as the successor to St. Peter upon whom the Church was built. He did not specifically appeal to his papal authority because it was understood. He was not writing the letter for future readers who were denying the legitimacy of the papacy. He wrote it to people who understood his position.

So they did not understand authority in their own church(which is what is about) but they did from Rome?

Fascinating hypothesis.
BH