Myth of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture

[Ozzie]

Scott_Lafrance:

John Nelson Darby’s Synopsis to the Books of the Bible

That’s it??? No recent scholars such as Walvoord, Pentecost, Ryrie, etc.? Those who thoroughly address and cover the doctrine?

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Ozzie:

And which Dispensational scholars have you actually read/studied to be able to assertively make the statement that it’s just a “doctrine of men?”

The original one:

, 1 Thessalonians, Chapter 3, para 21-30]

Upon this the apostle gives some more detailed explanation of the Lord’s coming in the form of express revelation, shewing how they would be with Him so as to come with Him when He appears. The living will not take precedence of those who sleep in Jesus. The Lord Himself will come as the Head of His heavenly army, dispersed for a time, to gather them to Himself. He gives the word. The voice of the archangel passes it on, and the trumpet of God is sounded. The dead in Christ will rise first, that is to say, before the living go up. Then we who shall be alive and remain shall go with them, all together, in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. So shall we be for ever with the Lord.

In this part of the passage, where he explains the details of our ascension to the Lord in the air nothing is said of His coming down to the earth; it is our going up (as He went up) to be with Him. 8] Neither, as far as concerns us, does the apostle go farther than our gathering together to be for ever with Him. Nothing is said either of judgment or of manifestation; but only the fact of our heavenly association with Him in that we leave the earth precisely as He left it. This is very precious. There is this difference: He went up in His own full right, He ascended; as to us, His voice calls the dead, and they come forth from the grave, and, the living being changed, all are caught up together. It is a solemn act of God’s power, which seals the Christians’ life and the work of God, and brings the former into the glory of Christ as His heavenly companions. Glorious privilege! Precious grace! To lose sight of it destroys the proper character of our joy and of our hope.

All the rest refers to His government of the earth: an important subject, a part of His glory; and we also take part in it. But it is not our own peculiar portion. This is, to be with Him, to be like Him, and even (when the time shall come) to quit in the same manner as Himself the world which rejected Him, and which has rejected us, and which is to be judged.

I repeat it: to lose sight of this is to lose our essential portion. All lies in the words, “so shall we ever be with the Lord.” The apostle has here explained how this will take place. 9] Remark here, that verses 15-18 are a parenthesis, and that chapter 5:1 follows on chapter 4:14; chapter 5 shewing what He will do when He brings the saints with Him according to chapter 4:14.

The Lord comes in Person to receive us to Himself; He does not send. With full authority over death, which He has conquered, and with the trump of God, He calls together His own from the grave; and these, with the living (transformed), go to meet Him in the air. Our departure from the world exactly resembles His own: we leave the world, to which we do not belong, to go to heaven. Once there, we have attained our portion. We are like Christ, we are forever with Him, but He will bring His own with Him, when He shall appear. This then was the true comfort in the case of a Christian’s death, and by no means put aside the daily expectation of the Lord from heaven. On the contrary this way of viewing the subject confirmed it. The dead saint did not lose his rights by dying-by sleeping in Jesus; he should be the first object of his Lord’s attention when He came to assemble His own. Nevertheless the place from which they go forth to meet Him is the earth. The dead should be raised-this was the first thing- that they might be ready to go with the others; and then from this earth all would depart together to be with Christ in heaven. This point of view is all important, in order to apprehend the true character of that moment when all our hopes will be consummated.
John Nelson Darby:

The apostle had already instructed the Thessalonians with regard to this wicked one, when at Thessalonica; and in the former epistle he had taught them concerning the rapture of the church. In order that the Lord should come in judgment, iniquity must have reached its height, and open opposition to God have been manifested. But the truth had another and more precious side: the saints were to be in the same position as Christ, to be gathered together unto Him, before He could manifest Himself in glory to those outside. But these truths require a more connected examination.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Ozzie:

That’s it??? No recent scholars such as Walvoord, Pentecost, Ryrie, etc.? Those who thoroughly address and cover the doctrine?

Who cares about more modern writers, as they all fall on the premise established by Darby. If you start with a flawed premise, all conclusions based on that premise will be wrong. Why should I involve myself in discovering the writings of “Modern” dispensational rapturists, if they are all just expositions of the original flawed theory propagated by Darby?

 

[Benadam]

Union with our Lord is a union that we have little to draw on for comparison in the way of experience. Primarily it is a union of knowledge of a kind that requires likeness.

“We will see Him as He is because we will be like Him”

There is no way around this reality. Our soul must be without spot or wrinkle to meet her Lord. This means that if there are people who will meet the Lord in the twinkling of an eye, their souls will have been reformed into His likeness during their earthly lives. They will be able to see Him as He is because they will be like Him.

The Church teaches that their will be a persecution the faithfull will endure before the Lord returns to judge the world.
The Church will follow her Lord to the cross and as He was perfected through suffering so will His Bride.

 

[pgeorgejr]

Why worry about which scholar says what? Take the words of Our Lord on the subject. Matthew 24 records his longest discourse on the end of time, but the following verses spell out the persecution that his believers will have to endure:

9“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

I hope I am one who is able to stand firm to the end. BTW, this is from the NIV so the dispensationalists don’t think we’re trying to fool them.

 

[dumspirospero]

That is referring to the second coming…I am sorry, but there can only be one second coming…as Christians, we are supposed to live our lives as Christ lived his…what makes you think we shall escape tribulations, temptations, and suffering? Christ didn’t. During the end times, to quote the CCC 675: “Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the 'mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth . The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh."

I was raised protestant and fed all of that pre-trib rapture garbage and that is all it is…it is false hope inspired into people and people believe it because it is the easiest way out…they think that all they have to do is have faith in Jesus, they are automatically saved, and they will be spared from the hard times that result from the great tribulation…I am sorry, but that is childish concept to have. We are going to be tried, tested, shaken, misled, etc…even some of the Elect will turn away from God…this will be the final test to see just how true our Faith is…please don’t think anyone will be spared from it. It is something that all of us will endure if we live that long. How are you going to feel when your “rapture” doesn’t happen and you are left with a bunch of John Hagee dvd’s and Left Behind books that just became less valuable than toilet paper?

Seek the truth and you shall find.

bkniceley:

ok… ill just state a few things… Look at the bible back to the old testament. U remember Lot who was spared from the destruction of soddom and gomorah because he was righteous in god’s eyes. And look at noah who was also spared from the flood. God has saved many of his believers from his wrath. Why dont u think he will in the future when the antichrist comes? He didnt save us in order for us to suffer his wrath u see… so it would be kinda foolish for him to leave us during the tribulation. If u look at 1 thessalonians: “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.” If this isnt referring to a rapture then what else would it be? I dont know just a thought

 

[dumspirospero]

Great point alyssa

Maybe it will be those 144,000 male virgins someone was talking about in another thread LOL just kidding of course

alyssa:

Why would God take all the believers away? Who would be left to teach those who convert in the last days?

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Gee dums, don’t hold back now. Tell us how you really feel.

dumspirospero:

That is referring to the second coming…I am sorry, but there can only be one second coming…as Christians, we are supposed to live our lives as Christ lived his…what makes you think we shall escape tribulations, temptations, and suffering? Christ didn’t. During the end times, to quote the CCC 675: “Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the 'mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth . The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh."

I was raised protestant and fed all of that pre-trib rapture garbage and that is all it is…it is false hope inspired into people and people believe it because it is the easiest way out…they think that all they have to do is have faith in Jesus, they are automatically saved, and they will be spared from the hard times that result from the great tribulation…I am sorry, but that is childish concept to have. We are going to be tried, tested, shaken, misled, etc…even some of the Elect will turn away from God…this will be the final test to see just how true our Faith is…please don’t think anyone will be spared from it. It is something that all of us will endure if we live that long. How are you going to feel when your “rapture” doesn’t happen and you are left with a bunch of John Hagee dvd’s and Left Behind books that just became less valuable than toilet paper?

Seek the truth and you shall find.

 

[dumspirospero]

You know how it is with converts…we are full of a firey passion to set the record straight against the heresies that were force fed to us for most of our lives before converting.

Scott…what are you doing for the superbowl? Who are you pulling for?

Scott_Lafrance:

Gee dums, don’t hold back now. Tell us how you really feel.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

dumspirospero:

You know how it is with converts…we are full of a firey passion to set the record straight against the heresies that were force fed to us for most of our lives before converting.

Scott…what are you doing for the superbowl? Who are you pulling for?

I am going to a friends house to watch my beloved Patriots win their 3rd Superbowl on his 72" Plasma screen, and indulge myself in some liquified hops and buffalo wings.

 

[dumspirospero]

Sounds like a good plan…I am planning on doing the same, however I am neutral in this Super Bowl, because I am a Colts Fan …but I am still up for adult beverages and some wings.

Scott_Lafrance:

I am going to a friends house to watch my beloved Patriots win their 3rd Superbowl on his 72" Plasma screen, and indulge myself in some liquified hops and buffalo wings.

 

[Ozzie]

Conster74:

He didn’t zap Noah and his family into heaven; He didn’t beam up the Israelites out of Egypt; He didn’t beam up David when he faced Goliath.; He didn’t beam up St. Stephen as the crowd was stoning him

True, but none of this suggests that God won’t Rapture the Church at the proper time. He allowed the Church to endure 300 consecutive years of persecution, and every true believer has his own personal trials during his/her life time. But still, none of this has anything to do with the Rapture of the (true) Church. Your argument is totally subjective. Obviously God’s plan was not catch up Noah, David or Stephen. Nor is it His plan to rescue any of us out of personal trials that we must face while living on this earth. But there is a future Tribulation Period called the “wrath” that true believers who make up the Church at that time are not destined:

1THES. 1:10 “…and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come.”

1THES 5:9 “For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,”

It’s true God does not promise to rescue us from our own personal trials, but the coming “wrath” of God, which will come upon the whole earth, is a wholly different story. The *true Church *is the Body of Christ and Christ does not bring wrath upon His own Body. The true Chruch is the Bride of Christ, and Christ does ot bring wrath upon His Bride. For this reason God’s Word says we (the true Church, true believers) are not destined for “wrath.”

 

[Ozzie]

Scott_Lafrance:

The original one:

Ok, you proved you know how to cut and paste. But you have not proven that you’ve actually studied the issues. I suggested the more recent writers because they address the issues in their writings.

There’s a lot of “opinions” declared on this thread, but so far I haven’t encounted anyone (including you) who has actually studied the doctrines and issues.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

alyssa:

Why would God take all the believers away? Who would be left to teach those who convert in the last days?

Hi Alyssa, Gods plan is perfect. God will not destroy the good among the bad. He will pull out the good and then destroy the evil. Remember this time it will be with Fire and I dont want to be burnt. God Bless

 

[dumspirospero]

None of the things you cite suggest or even imply there is going to be a rapture…so let me get this straight, I guess Catholics are not a part of your idea of the “true Church” and after this Rapture of yours takes place, all the believers will be gone and everyone “left behind” at the risk of souding cliche is a bunch of non-believers who are damned…and if all the true believers are gone, then who in the world is Christ coming back for during his Second Coming…assuming what you are saying is true? Also, who will be around to convert people and keep the Church together since all of the believers are gone?

Ozzie:

True, but none of this suggests that God won’t Rapture the Church at the proper time. He allowed the Church to endure 300 consecutive years of persecution, and every true believer has his own personal trials during his/her life time. But still, none of this has anything to do with the Rapture of the (true) Church. Your argument is totally subjective. Obviously God’s plan was not catch up Noah, David or Stephen. Nor is it His plan to rescue any of us out of personal trials that we must face while living on this earth. But there is a future Tribulation Period called the “wrath” that true believers who make up the Church at that time are not destined:

1THES. 1:10 "…and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come."

1THES 5:9 "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

It’s true God does not promise to rescue us from our own personal trials, but the coming “wrath” of God, which will come upon the whole earth, is a wholly different story. The *true Church *is the Body of Christ and Christ does not bring wrath upon His own Body. The true Chruch is the Bride of Christ, and Christ does ot bring wrath upon His Bride. For this reason God’s Word says we (the true Church, true believers) are not destined for “wrath.”

 

[dumspirospero]

Why in the world if God is going to snatch all the believers and leave only the non-believers…would he put them through a period of tribulation to test their faith if he is just going to destroy them anyway and burn them and damn them to hell forever…why not just get it over with because hell is worse than anything one could face on Earth…you and Ozzie need to think about what you all are saying…it doesn’t make any sense whatsoever.

So I guess with all the believers gone with this miraculous rapture, the tribulation is going to be a period where God has fun torturing those left behind before he burns them up and sends them to hell…doesn’t sound like the God I know…it also makes those naked photos at Abuh Ghraib not seem so bad.

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Alyssa, Gods plan is perfect. God will not destroy the good among the bad. He will pull out the good and then destroy the evil. Remember this time it will be with Fire and I dont want to be burnt. God Bless

 

[bkniceley]

God’s wrath is the whole of revelation the whole book which describes the endtimes… if god says that we were not meant to suffer his wrath then we cannot be in those times… also look at 2Th 2:6 You know what it is that now holds him back, so that he will be revealed when his time comes.
2Th 2:7 The mystery of this sin is already at work. But it cannot work effectively until the person now holding it back gets out of the way.
2Th 2:8 Then the man of sin will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will destroy him by what he says. When the Lord Jesus comes, his appearance will put an end to this man.

Now something is not letting this false messiah be revealed… what is it then? And what is this person holding back? The person is holding back sin and the person is a christian. So once all the people resisting sin are removed(christians) then the antichrist will be revealed and is not being held back any longer.

And for the person that doesnt read any “modern” books… what makes u think that the older books are the ones always in the right? God pours out his knowledge through the holy spirit whom all christians have today. You cant just rule out all “modern” books for everything.

 

[dumspirospero]

Please tell me what the purpose in the anti-christ is, if the only people around when he gets here are non-Christians? It is pointless for the anti-christ to be let loose on a population that has already turned their backs on God…does anyone else see the absurdity in this? The person in those scriptures yet to be revealed is the Son of Perdition or the Anti-Christ and the only person holding him back is Christ…once Christ decides to let him loose upon the world, The Church will experience a time that will shake all believers and even have some of the believer turn away from God…I am sorry, but you are foolish if you think man is holding back the Anti-Christ…we have no power whatsoever to prevent these things from happening and there sure isn’t going to be some fairytale rapture to save us from them happening.

Also, The Catholic Church is the one true Church…we are the only Church to have the blessings of being started by Christ, Apostolic sucession, Tradition, etc…We have the gift of the Holy Spirit as well…so why are our beliefs so different? I find it troubling that you and other protestants suggest that the Holy Spirit contradicts himself. A single man is not able to interpret and understand the Bible, Christianity, or the Divine Mysteries…that is why there is a Magisterium, Tradition, Dogma, Encyclicals, etc…which allow us to Truly know where the HOly Spirit is leading the Church.

bkniceley:

Now something is not letting this false messiah be revealed… what is it then? And what is this person holding back? The person is holding back sin and the person is a christian. So once all the people resisting sin are removed(christians) then the antichrist will be revealed and is not being held back any longer.

And for the person that doesnt read any “modern” books… what makes u think that the older books are the ones always in the right? God pours out his knowledge through the holy spirit whom all christians have today. You cant just rule out all “modern” books for everything.

 

[MaggieOH]

Ozzie:

And which Dispensational scholars have you actually read/studied to be able to assertively make the statement that it’s just a “doctrine of men?”

Its not in the Scripture. It came about because of the “visions” of a Scots girl by the name of Margaret McDonald. It was taken up by Schofield and disseminated throughout the United States. It was not taught by the early Church Fathers.

If you want more information you can refer to Paul Thigpen “The Rapture Trap” and David Currie “Rapture”.

The Dispensationalist Rapture is a doctrine of men. It is not of Christ or the Holy Spirit. It spreads fear, and gives rise to conspiracy theories. Have been to many of those sites on the Internet. They are enough to make one either laugh or be sick.

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

Scott_Lafrance:

The original one:

As I said, the doctrine of Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a doctrine of men.

Maggie