Myth of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture

[MaggieOH]

Ozzie:

Ok, but when you get home and do your research, let me know in what month in 70 AD the Jews in Jerusalem actually saw the Lord return and gather His elect. So, evidently, based on your interpretation and events, we no longer have to look forward to Christ’s 2 nd Advent, right?

In light of the way that the Scripture speaks about the retribution of God when they turn away and sin, I would say that the event was triggered by the death of James the Bishop of Jerusalem. It was after this event that the Jews began their final descent into disaster. They fought against the Romans at Masada and lost. The Romans were looking for an excuse to teach the Jews a lesson.

Since this was the end of the Temple era, the Lord came in judgment upon the Jews, and 1,000,000 perished at the hands of the Romans. The Temple in Jerusalem was sacked and destroyed. During this time, not one Christian lost his or her life because they had already gone to Pella, where they managed to survive the disaster that had befallen Jerusalem.

The events that were played out in 70 A.D. are significant in our understanding of the prophecy of Jesus Christ.

As for the second coming, yes we do have the presence of Christ every hour of every single day in the Eucharist. This is rightly called the parousia.

Maggie

 

[Ozzie]

Scott_LaFrance:

Those of us faithful Catholics reject that proposal out of hand because it is not supported by the entirety of Scripture (taken in context) the Sacred Tradition of the Church, and the Magisterium of the Catholic faith.

Your statement that it is not supported by the entirety of Scripture, taken in context, is either intentionally misleading or based on the fact that you’ve never really studied the issues from a totally Biblical point of view.

Jesus says in Matt. 24:21 that at the “end of the age” (24:3), “there will be a great tribulation such as not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall.” The text continues in that same time frame and states that IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation the Lord returns to this earth in great glory (Matt. 24:29-30).

A major theme presented by the O. T. Hebrew prophets is the “Day of the Lord,” contrasted with a glorious, earthly Kingdom to follow. Like Jesus (Jesus Himself being a Prophet), the prophet Joel says “there has never been anything like it, nor will there be again after it” (Joel 2:2b). Both Jesus and Joel agree that it occurs only one time in Israel’s history.

In Joel 2:11 Joel states that* “the day of the Lord is indeed great and very awesome.”* He goes on to describe that day by the same words that Jesus describes it in Matt. 24:29. But Jesus states that "IMMEDIATELY AFTER those days the Son of Man returns to this earth. This coincides perfectly with Joel because Joel goes on in chapter three to state that in those days God will *“restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem” *and He will gather all the nations before Him in the valley of Jehosephat and enter into judgment with them on behalf of His people, Israel, whom they had scattered all over the world and divided up HIS LAND (which they are still trying to do today with the so-called Palestinians).

It is made very obvious in Matt. 24 that Jesus saw that time of great Tribulation, corresponding with Joel’s “Day of the Lord,” as yet future and being fulfilled just prior to His 2nd Advent (which is yet future). Obviously He did not see that time as being fulfilled in the days of Antiochus IV. (the Maccabeean revolt). Those who hold to a historical fulfillment of this awesome day do so IN SPITE of what Jesus Himself reveals concerning the time frame of that “day” in Matt. 24.

Continued next post:

 

[Ozzie]

Continued from previous post:

The Apostle Paul also communicates to us that the “Day of the Lord” is yet future in his second letter to the Thessalonians.

2THESS. 2:1-2 “Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.”

Like people on this thread, the RCC, and many Protestant churches, some among the Thessalonian believers were saying that the “Day of the Lord” had already come - which had upset them greatly. So it begs the question: Why would that upset them? The anwer to this question is revealed in verse one: Paul is informing them in regards to the coming of the Lord and our gathering together TO HIM. Obviously Paul had told them that they would not experience the “Day of the Lord.” So, if the “Day” had actually already come then they would have missed “our gathering together TO Him.” But Paul assures them that the DOL had not come and is yet future, because certain things must occur at that time and, unquestionably, they had not:

2THESS. 2:3-4 "Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless (1) the apostasy comes first, (2) and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God."

1. The “man of lawlessness” exalts himself as God, and takes his seat in the temple of God. An event that is yet future according to both Paul and Jesus (Matt. 24:15).
2. If this man is to take his seat in the temple of God, then a temple MUST be rebuilt on the temple mount in Jerusalem. Alas, Israel is back as a nation and the desire to rebuild that temple is alive amongst them.

3. Paul states that “the apostasy” must come first. That word is transliterated from the Greek, “he apastasia,” into our English translations as “the apostasy.” It can mean " the falling away," or “the departure.” If the latter, then Paul is saying that the “Day of the Lord” will not occur UNTIL THE DEPARTURE comes first. The latter makes perfect sense because Paul is writing to the Thessalonians in the context of “our gathering together to Him,” in verse one. Hence, the “Day of the Lord,” spoken about by the O.T. Hebrew prophets, which coincides with the “great tribulation” spoken about by Jesus, cannot occur UNTIL the true church is departed, i.e., RAPTURED.

4. For this reason Paul had already written to the Thessalonians in his first letter that God "delivers us (the true Church) from the wrath to come" (1 Thess. 1:10), for He has not destined us (the true Church) for that wrath (5:9).

5. Paul says that this “lawless one” will meet his end at the Lord’s coming (2 Thess. 2:8). This coincides perfectly with Rev. 19:19-20 where the “beast” and the "false prophet" are seized by Christ and thrown alive into the “Lake of Fire” at His 2nd Advent (Rev. 19:11-16). Satan is THEN bound for a 1000 years (a Millennium) so that THEN, and only then, he cannot deceive the nations on earth during that specific period of time. Clearly, this is the time of Christ’s reign on earth - after His 2nd Advent: the earthly, Davidic/Messianic Kingdom promised to national Israel in prophetic and covenant form.

Conclusion:
(1) The true Church is raptured before the Day of the Lord.

(2) The Messianic Kingdom established ON EARTH after Christ’s physical return.

(3) Contrary to your uninformed statement above, it does fit into the entirety of Scripture, and without having manipulate them by allegorizing or spiritualizing any text.

 

[MaggieOH]

The Cub:

We have gotten way off target……

Maggie,

Please read the following:

In Chapter 5: “Multiple Fulfillment” of his writing entitled: “Free From All Error: Authorship, Inerrancy, Historicity of Scripture, Church Teaching, and Modern Scripture Scholars”. In it he states:

“A remarkable phenomenon appears in a number of places in Scripture. Oddly, it has been little noticed by scholars. It seems that prophecies can have more than one fulfillment…”

http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/most/getchap.cfm?WorkNum=216&ChapNum=6

Cub,

my quote came from Dr. Scott Hahn, a very reputable theologian.

The source that you gave says that the Jerome Bible Commentary is a source free from error. I have the New Jerome Bible Commentary and I disagree with that comment.

Since I have used a reputable source and I have stated the source as that of Dr. Scott Hahn, from a publication that has the Imprimatur where is the problem?

I am not sure that I agree with the site that you told me to see when it comes to sources.

Maggie

 

[Ozzie]

The Cub:

Ozzie,

Here is your “rapture”:

http://www.call2holiness.org/RefugesonWings/RefugesonWings.htm

****http://www.call2holiness.org/mythofrapture/MythofRaptureHTML.htm

---

God bless you and your families,

cub

Sorry, dear fellow, that’s not my Rapture. I’d have nothing to do with it. And you can call it a “myth” all you want, and side with those who call it fantasy, but God is watching over His Word to perform it (Jer. 1:12), and Christ loves His (true) Church and has not destined it for wrath. Remember the Thessalonians.

 

[Ozzie]

MaggieOH:

In light of the way that the Scripture speaks about the retribution of God when they turn away and sin, I would say that the event was triggered by the death of James the Bishop of Jerusalem. It was after this event that the Jews began their final descent into disaster. They fought against the Romans at Masada and lost. The Romans were looking for an excuse to teach the Jews a lesson.

Since this was the end of the Temple era, the Lord came in judgment upon the Jews, and 1,000,000 perished at the hands of the Romans. The Temple in Jerusalem was sacked and destroyed. During this time, not one Christian lost his or her life because they had already gone to Pella, where they managed to survive the disaster that had befallen Jerusalem.

The events that were played out in 70 A.D. are significant in our understanding of the prophecy of Jesus Christ.

As for the second coming, yes we do have the presence of Christ every hour of every single day in the Eucharist. This is rightly called the parousia.Maggie

So you’re claiming that we’re not to expect a Second coming of Jesus Christ to this earth. His coming in glory is your “Eucharist.” Am I reading you right? If so, then you’re a Catholic full Preterist.

 

[The_Cub]

Maggie,

Perhaps you overlooked the credentials of Fr. William G. Most:

catholicculture.org/docs/most/start.cfm?choice=2

catholicculture.org/docs/most/browse.cfm

If not, then we can agree to disagree (with respect to the credentials of Fr. Most vs. Scott Hahn with respect to the issues raised by this thread, including without limitation “multiple fulfillment prophecy”).

---

Others,

I’m not sure where we are in this circuitous thread, but if you fail to yield to truth as contained in the initial link posted re: the Myth of the Pre-Trib. Rapture…then by all means, please prepare a Plan B:

call2holiness.org/RefugesonWings/RefugesonWings.htm

God bless you and your families,

cub

 

[Benadam]

Ozzie:

So you’re claiming that we’re not to expect a Second coming of Jesus Christ to this earth. His coming in glory is your “Eucharist.” Am I reading you right? If so, then you’re a Catholic full Preterist.

nothing of the sort. In fact part of the liturgy of the Eucharist and something said by the entire congregation is " Christ has died, Christ IS Risen, Christ will come again.

There is a spiritual reality that seems to go unrealized by most protestants I’ve encountered in regards to Holy Scripture, prophetic literature in particular, and Christ Himself. That’s the IS part of their nature. Was, Is, and yet to come. That part seems to remain unrecognized in the way spiritual realities connected to Salvation history are conceptualized.

In the Eucharist Christ’s reality can be found in that IS part denied by other Christians.

Remember the two disciples walking along the road being taught by a stranger. The stranger taught them Scripture in a way that made their heart burn but even this wasn’t eneogh to open their eyes to who it was their heart was responding to through the words of Scripture untill He broke bread with them. Of course once the bread was broke just who that man was knocking on the door of their heart became known. Christ Jesus.

 

[MaggieOH]

Ozzie:

So you’re claiming that we’re not to expect a Second coming of Jesus Christ to this earth. His coming in glory is your “Eucharist.” Am I reading you right? If so, then you’re a Catholic full Preterist.

No I am a Preterist/Amillenarianist.

I do believe that Jesus will come again to judge the living and the dead, and that this will happen at the end of time.

What I am saying is that Jesus is also with us now every time we celebrate Mass and He is exposed in the Blessed Sacrament for Adoration.

Jesus Himself said: “Whenever two or three are gathered in my name I am there with you” (paraphrased)

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

The Cub:

Maggie,

Perhaps you overlooked the credentials of Fr. William G. Most:

catholicculture.org/docs/most/start.cfm?choice=2

catholicculture.org/docs/most/browse.cfm

If not, then we can agree to disagree (with respect to the credentials of Fr. Most vs. Scott Hahn with respect to the issues raised by this thread, including without limitation “multiple fulfillment prophecy”).

---

Others,

I’m not sure where we are in this circuitous thread, but if you fail to yield to truth as contained in the initial link posted re: the Myth of the Pre-Trib. Rapture…then by all means, please prepare a Plan B:

call2holiness.org/RefugesonWings/RefugesonWings.htm

God bless you and your families,

cub

Cub,

we will have to agree to disagree because Fr. Most’s credentials are no better than the credentials of most other theologians. I have one of his books and quite frankly I was disappointed with the content, hardly getting past a few pages.

You see the problem here is: I live in another country and as such I tend to follow a theologian of the calibre of Cardinal Pell. My own parish priest is also a Scripture scholar who has studied in Rome and I have contact with yet another priest with a similar background.

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

Ozzie:

I guess you’re in need of a quick lesson in geography and history. In my post I quoted what Paul wrote to the Church at Thessalonica, which was in ancient Greece. In 1 Thess. 1:10 and 5:9 he tells them that God has not destined us (believers) for wrath. The “wrath” he was referring to could have nothing to do with what took place in 70 A.D. since what took place in 70 A.D. was the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman army under Titus. What Titus did to Jerusalem in 70 A.D. had absolutely no relevance, nor could it have, on the Gentile believers Paul was writing to in Thessalonica, Greece. Obviously, Paul was not referring to something that would take place in Jerusalem, hundreds of miles from the city in which these he was writing to were living. Why would the Thessalonians need to be told they would not endure the coming destruction of Jerusalem? A little common sense is needed here.

Also, the prophetic Book of Revelation was penned after 70 A.D., and in context of the breaking of the “seals” in chapter six, it is said, “for the great day of their wrath has come; and who is able to stand” (Rev. 6:17). The Book goes on to describe world wide catastrophes (trumpet and bowls judgments) which can not fit into the limited 70 A.D. event of the destruction of Jerusalem anyway.

Let me ask you again, Maggie, what books have you actually read/studied on this subject? Besides internet articles which agree with YOUR preconceived prejudices?

Reality check. What Paul wrote to the Thessalonians has yet another meaning that has nothing to do with the myth of the Raptue.

 

[dennisknapp]

Ozzie:

Me with the ad hominem attacks??? There’s no anger in my posts, just tired of those who have nothing to offer but sarcasm and funny pictures.But you’re not replying, Maggie. You’re simply cutting and pasting.

I’ll ask you again. Can you give me at least the month in the year 70 A.D. that the world saw the Son of Man coming in the clowds with power and great glory? Jesus did say "immediately after the tribulation of those days…"

Can we visit the site where He set up His glorious throne and all the nations were gathered before Him? Where is He now?

Ozzie,

Doesn’t it bother you that what you are saying is found NO WHERE in the history of the Church prior to the 18th century. Sure, many early Christians were pre-millennialists, but not in the same way you seem to be saying.

Also, how many second comings are there? In 1st Thes. it speaks of the Day of the Lord, why could this not mean just the second coming? Why does it have to refer to the Rapture? In context it seems as though Christ is returning to stay and not to return again at the later date. Would this not make 2 second comings? One to grap his church and the other to set up his earthy kingdom? How is this one second coming?

BTW, what exactly is a “bible” Christian anyway? You seem to disagree with my definition, so what is yours? Where the early Christians “bible” Christians?

Peace

 

[Ozzie]

MaggieOH:

No I am a Preterist/Amillenarianist.

I do believe that Jesus will come again to judge the living and the dead, and that this will happen at the end of time.

What I am saying is that Jesus is also with us now every time we celebrate Mass and He is exposed in the Blessed Sacrament for Adoration.

Jesus Himself said: “Whenever two or three are gathered in my name I am there with you” (paraphrased)

Maggie

So what does this have anything to do with Matt. 24:29-30? Please stay focused.

 

[briand]

The Cub:

.
THE MYTH OF THE PRE-TRIBULATIONAL RAPTURE

Actually it is a good business, some have made quite abit off this view. I guess that makes it true, if not true it is effective.

 

[Benadam]

I’ll ask you again. Can you give me at least the month in the year 70 A.D. that the world saw the Son of Man coming in the clowds with power and great glory? Jesus did say "immediately after the tribulation of those days…"

I believe in light of St stephen’s martyrdom that the vision of the Son of Man coming in the clouds is seen by those who are persecuted in His name. It is a sign that strengthens faith and increases the anger of those who persecute the faith. This is implied when Christ say’s this to the Sanhedrin and when St Stephen says it while being stoned to death. It’s easy to picture this vision happening to many Jewish citizens remembering Jesus while Jerusalem is being sacked amongst whom many can be thought of as taken and many left.

 

[MaggieOH]

The Cub:

We have gotten way off target……

Maggie,

Please read the following:

In Chapter 5: “Multiple Fulfillment” of his writing entitled: “Free From All Error: Authorship, Inerrancy, Historicity of Scripture, Church Teaching, and Modern Scripture Scholars”. In it he states:

“A remarkable phenomenon appears in a number of places in Scripture. Oddly, it has been little noticed by scholars. It seems that prophecies can have more than one fulfillment…”

Cub,

I have just realized that because you did not read the whole of what I had written you did not see that I have not denied the multiple fulfillment of prophecy aspect, and neither has Scott Hahn.

What I had typed in from the Gospel of Matthew commentary regarding the timing of the fulfillment is equally true of the prophecy of Daniel. A good portion of what is written in Daniel chapter 12 was fulfilled during the Maccabean Wars.

However, since this is not relevant to your thread I have started a new one so that the focus of the discussion can continue along these paths without seeking out the modern alleged prophets.

Maggie

 

[Ozzie]

MaggieOH:

I have just realized that because you did not read the whole of what I had written you did not see that I have not denied the multiple fulfillment of prophecy aspect, and neither has Scott Hahn.

Maggie, it is at times possible for a prophecy to have multiple fulfillments. But every prophecy has a FINAL fulfullment, and the context demands it. Such as in Matt. 24 Jesus says* “immediately after the tribulation of those days…”* the Son of Man is seen coming in glory. So I’ll ask you AGAIN, which month in 70 a.d. did all the tribes of the earth see the Son of Man coming in glory IN THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY? You say this applies to the “Eucharist.” Another says the vision of Stephen. Sorry, these just won’t fit the context since Jesus is talking about His “coming at the end of the age” (vs. 3).

What I had typed in from the Gospel of Matthew commentary regarding the timing of the fulfillment is equally true of the prophecy of Daniel. A good portion of what is written in Daniel chapter 12 was fulfilled during the Maccabean Wars.

Not in chapter 12. Chapter eleven swiftly covers much of the history of Greece and their dealings with Israel, and verse 32 explicitly refers to the Maccabean revolt, but verse 36 is a whole different prophetic context and parallels what Paul wrote to the Thessalonians in 2 Thess. 2:3.

However, since this is not relevant to your thread I have started a new one so that the focus of the discussion can continue along these paths without seeking out the modern alleged prophets.

Before you go off to another thread, please answer my question on Matt. 24:29.

 

[Ozzie]

I’ll ask you again. Can you give me at least the month in the year 70 A.D. that the world saw the Son of Man coming in the clowds with power and great glory? Jesus did say "immediately after the tribulation of those days…"

I believe in light of St stephen’s martyrdom that the vision of the Son of Man coming in the clouds is seen by those who are persecuted in His name. It is a sign that strengthens faith and increases the anger of those who persecute the faith. This is implied when Christ say’s this to the Sanhedrin and when St Stephen says it while being stoned to death. It’s easy to picture this vision happening to many Jewish citizens remembering Jesus while Jerusalem is being sacked amongst whom many can be thought of as taken and many left.

So you believe EVERY martyr saw the same vision of Jesus Stephen saw? I don’t think so, my friend. You’re spiritualizing a text when, in context, it demands a literal fulfillment. Also, Stephen did not see Jesus coming in the clouds with great glory, but the heavens opened up and he saw Him STANDING at the right hand of God (Acts 7:55-56).

 

[Mickey]

… was that the hot air that came wafting into my house with a somewhat vile odour?

You crack me up , Maggie! smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_6.gif

I feel sad for Ozzie. He is an angry person lost in a stir fry of revisionist theology. And it’s not his fault. He was probably fed all these untruths his entire life!

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_1_5.gif

 

[Benadam]

Ozzie:

So you believe EVERY martyr saw the same vision of Jesus Stephen saw? I don’t think so, my friend. You’re spiritualizing a text when, in context, it demands a literal fulfillment. Also, Stephen did not see Jesus coming in the clouds with great glory, but the heavens opened up and he saw Him STANDING at the right hand of God (Acts 7:55-56).

St Stephen saw the Son of Man and followed his master faithfully to the point of asking for the Father to forgive his murderers. In that respect it follows as an example of what Christ meant when He said " From now on"
I believe that the suffering that accompanies martyrdom is accompanied by Grace that comforts, offers virtue and sometimes manifests physically in a miracle. I see in the deaths of martyrs the same formula displayed is St Stephens death and even the protomartyrs in Macabbees who were strengthened by the Grace of the resurrection. They saw the Son of Man coming on the clouds as well and it angered Antiochas Epiphenes(?) as it did the Sanhedrin. I believe all martyrs experience it whether it is visible or not.

I believe that vision is Grace to the suffering and a condemnation to persecutors when witnessed on earth.

I’ll throw a curve ball into this and say I believe in a caused by tribulation rapture in that I believe that the suffering of Christians in the tribulation will be so united to Christ that some who participate in it will experience a purging of all corruption and will be taken up.