Myth of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture

[Benadam]

Ozzie:

So you believe EVERY martyr saw the same vision of Jesus Stephen saw? I don’t think so, my friend. You’re spiritualizing a text when, in context, it demands a literal fulfillment. Also, Stephen did not see Jesus coming in the clouds with great glory, but the heavens opened up and he saw Him STANDING at the right hand of God (Acts 7:55-56).

St Stephen saw the Son of Man and followed his master faithfully to the point of asking the Father to forgive his murderers. In that respect it follows as an example of what Christ meant when He said " From now on"
I believe that the suffering that accompanies martyrdom is accompanied by Grace that comforts, offers virtue and sometimes manifests physically in a miracle. I see in the deaths of martyrs the same formula displayed is St Stephens death and even the protomartyrs in Macabbees who were strengthened by the Grace of the resurrection. They saw the Son of Man coming on the clouds as well and it angered Antiochas Epiphenes(?) as it did the Sanhedrin. I believe all martyrs experience it whether it is visible or not.

I believe that vision is Grace to the suffering and a condemnation to persecutors when witnessed on earth.

I’ll throw a curve ball into this and say I believe in a caused by tribulation rapture in that I believe that the suffering of Christians in the tribulation will be so united to Christ that those who participate in it’s fulfillment will experience a purging of all corruption and will be taken up.

 

[Ignatius]

Ozzie:

So you believe EVERY martyr saw the same vision of Jesus Stephen saw?.

No, some saw the vision of Steven, some of Polycarp, some of Ignatius, as so on; right on down through the ages to the present day.

 

[Ozzie]

Benadam:

I’ll throw a curve ball into this and say I believe in a caused by tribulation rapture in that I believe that the suffering of Christians in the tribulation will be so united to Christ that those who participate in it’s fulfillment will experience a purging of all corruption and will be taken up.

Sorry, my friend, but no man is ever purged of corruption by his own suffering or shedding of his own blood - only the precious blood of Jesus Christ has that power. And this He did on the cross 2000 years ago (Heb. 1:3).

Will you put your faith in Christ alone so that ALL your sins will be forgiven and inherit eternal life?

 

[Ozzie]

dennisknapp:

Doesn’t it bother you that what you are saying is found NO WHERE in the history of the Church prior to the 18th century. Sure, many early Christians were pre-millennialists, but not in the same way you seem to be saying.

I concede that the advanced and detailed theology of today’s Pretribulationalism is not found in early Church writings (although hinted to). But neither is the doctrine of the Trinity. The fact is, the development of most important doctrines took centuries, so in respect to eschatology it is not surprising that in the twentieth century new light should be cast on our understanding of what the Scriptures have to say on this slow-to-develop doctrine. Your question reveals your lack of understanding of doctrinal development in Church history. The doctrine of the Trinity didn’t receive permanent statement until the fourth century and thereafter, beginning with the Council of Nicaea in 325. And even after that Council the majority of the Bishops in the East and West remained Arian in their view. In fact, the eastern Germanic tribes (east of the Danube) were evangelized by Arian Bishops. The doctrine of human depravity was not a settled doctrine until the fifth century and after. The doctrine of the sufficiency of Scripture and the priesthood of all believers were not recognized until the Protestant Reformation (which I’m sure you disagree with, but nevertheless, a fact). It wasn’t until the liberation of the Reformation with its emphasis on the Scriptures that men began to study intensely what’s revealed there regarding national Israel, the Church and end time events. Eventually “replacement theology” (that the Church is the “new Israel”) was debunked based on a literal delineation of the prophetic Scriptures and men began to understand more clearly God’s separate programs for both the Church Christ is building during this Church age, and national Israel with whom He has yet to fulfill His prophetic and covenant promises. Not until the Scriptures got back into the hands of men could men again study His immutable Word for the truths it contains therein.

The true faith is based entirely on what is divinely revealed to men (God’s written Word), not on what is believed by men.

 

[Ozzie]

briand:

Actually it is a good business, some have made quite abit off this view. I guess that makes it true, if not true it is effective.

One could say as much for the church of Rome. I’ve been to the Vatican and I’ve seen the jewel studded crowns and other paraphernalia it has on display. These things weren’t bought by the Pope writing best selling books. While we’re at it, how about the sale of indulgences? Do you really want to take the debate down this rocky road? I don’t think so. You best leave it alone and try to add something with substance to the thead.

 

[Benadam]

Ozzie:

Sorry, my friend, but no man is ever purged of corruption by his own suffering or shedding of his own blood - only the precious blood of Jesus Christ has that power. And this He did on the cross 2000 years ago (Heb. 1:3).

Will you put your faith in Christ alone so that ALL your sins will be forgiven and inherit eternal life?

Jesus IS the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

If what you say is true, Jesus’ Way cannot be taken, His Truth cannot be revealed, His Life cannot be lived.

Ozzie with that statement you teach what you do not see. You don’t see something so you say it isn’t so. The statement I made is taught from what is seen. I see something and I say this is so.
I have no doubt you know well the Gospel passage of Jesus’ saying, so I won’t quote it.

Scripture does reveal that He is the Master and His disciples participate in His life.

 

[MaggieOH]

Ozzie:

One could say as much for the church of Rome. I’ve been to the Vatican and I’ve seen the jewel studded crowns and other paraphernalia it has on display. These things weren’t bought by the Pope writing best selling books. While we’re at it, how about the sale of indulgences? Do you really want to take the debate down this rocky road? I don’t think so. You best leave it alone and try to add something with substance to the thead.

These accusations have nothing to do with the subject of this thread. If you want to make these claims and see what others have to say then start your own thread.

 

[MaggieOH]

Mickey:

You crack me up , Maggie! smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_6.gif

I feel sad for Ozzie. He is an angry person lost in a stir fry of revisionist theology. And it’s not his fault. He was probably fed all these untruths his entire life!

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_1_5.gif

You are right, Ozzie does not know anything better. That is why he twists what people are saying and interprets their words to mean something that is not being said.

Honestly he just does not get it, that I am not saying that the prophecies have been fulfilled and there will be no futher fulfillment. What I am saying is that the Dispensationalist Rapture is a myth because it does not take into account what the audience at the time the Scriptures were written understood. Before you look at anything in the future you have to also consider the history of the time.

At the same time I do not go along with the modern “visionaries” who also talk about the Tribulation etc. because there are things that they are saying that just do not add up.

It does not mean that we are not seeing an end of the Times as we know them because there are plenty of things going on that could be seen as signs of the Times and those things such as the devastation caused by the Tsunami should not be ignored.

On the other hand I will continue to debate against anyone who claims that the Temple must be rebuilt in Jerusalem. That is a very big error, and it shows that those who make this claim do not understand the purpose of Jesus’ death on the Cross. There will not be any more animal sacrifices. Anyone who thinks so should read the prophets again and again until they finally see the Truth. When they do they will have to abandon their error and come back to the Catholic Church.

Maggie

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Mickey:

I don’t know if this have been resolved…

Mickey:

You prove that she didn’t!

…But since it is impossible to prove a negative, as a matter of Law, it is incumbant on the accuser to prove the positive. The usual standard in historical matters is clear and compelling evidence that demonstrates to that your accusation is more likely to be true than not to the preponderance of the evidence.

Ozzie was right on this one. It was up to you to demonstrate that the person in question had an association with Darby.

I know this will probably make me as popular with you as a meat dish in a restaurant full of Catholics on Friday in Lent, but that’s the normal standard for historical and civil inquiry.

That would seem to apply here.

Blessings to you and your household.

In Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Cub in your #1:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=437195&postcount=1

You use a LINK from Call To Holiness which made this quote:

Furthermore, in the text of Matthew 24:14 the Greek word, oikoumene is used and translated as world. Scholars hold that it is used in a literal (historical) sense. They hold that it is used here to mean the world of the old Roman Empire. Indeed, certain Greek to English dictionaries state its meaning as: “land, i.e. the (terrene part of the) globe; specially, the Roman empire:–earth, world.”

call2holiness.org/Matthew2414/Matthew2414.htm

I would just like to point out that, in a practical sense, the Church hasn’t accepted what these scholars has said, because She has continued to evangelize and preach the Gospel of Christ beyond the bounds of the Roman Empire for the last 1950 years, beginning with St. Thomas’ MISSION to India, where he was martyred.

It should be considered that the writer of the Gospel was transmitting the words of Jesus himself, who, since He was God Incarnate, knew that the world encompassed far more than the known world of the time. In this case, the Gospel writer did not have to know that the World encompassed any part of the world beyond the Roman Empire. he only had to transmit the words of Our Lord as he actually heard them.

I don’t think the person writing the article considered that as a possibility.

You do not have to accept what he says to reject Pre-Tribulationalism, which is an intrinsically selfish doctrine.

Just by skimming it, I can see that the LINK from your next post appears to be correct:

call2holiness.org/mythofrapture/MythofRaptureHTML.htm

Blessings to you and your household.

Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Ozzie:

I’ve read several, including several from Hal Lindsey, who predicted the Rapture and Second Coming in the 1970’s.

Ozzie:

And which Dispensational scholars have you actually read/studied to be able to assertively make the statement that it’s just a “doctrine of men?”

There’s a Scripture "So then, you will know them by their fruits.Ó Matthew 7:20 (NASB) And another But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,Ê Meekness, temperance: Galatians 5:22-23a KJV

During WW II, the Japanese interned every foreign Christian msisionary they could get their hands on.

Protestants Missionaries, most of whom believed in the Pre-Tribulation, believed that Our Lord would save them from any severe trials such as they ones they were goign through during their internment. Because of this, many of them had real crisis of faith and many fell away and lost their faith.

Catholic Missionaries, most of whom had been brought up and trained to believe that they would suffer just like early Christians suffered, suffered very few such crisis of Faith, and fewer still few away for that reason.

As Our Lord said, “You will know them from their fruits”, and as St Ignatius said of the other, “You will know the devul by his tail.”

That’s all I have to say.

Blessings to you and your household.

In Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Scott_Lafrance:

Who cares about more modern writers, as they all fall on the premise established by Darby. If you start with a flawed premise, all conclusions based on that premise will be wrong. Why should I involve myself in discovering the writings of “Modern” dispensational rapturists, if they are all just expositions of the original flawed theory propagated by Darby?

Scott:

You mean “REGURGITATIONS” don’t you?

Hal Lindsey quotes him all over the place, as di the other guys on Ozzie’s LIST!

Have a gret Weekend!

In Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Ozzie:

I can see that you’ve lost the original debate…Or, from the tone of this post, shall I say “Argument”, because you’ve chosen the most childish way possible to start a giant furball by calling every Catholic on the board out for a fight.

That is what you’ve done - Isn’t it?

Ozzie:

One could say as much for the church of Rome. I’ve been to the Vatican and I’ve seen the jewel studded crowns and other paraphernalia it has on display. These things weren’t bought by the Pope writing best selling books. While we’re at it, how about the sale of indulgences? Do you really want to take the debate down this rocky road? I don’t think so. You best leave it alone and try to add something with substance to the thead.

Ozzie, what you’re doing here, and what you’ve just done, can’t bring glory to Our Lord and His name, only shame to you.

I strongly recommend that you spend some serious time in repentence and prayer before Him before you go any further.

In Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Dumspirospero:

I was forcefed much of the same stuff…

dumspirospero:

You know how it is with converts…we are full of a firey passion to set the record straight against the heresies that were force fed to us for most of our lives before converting.

Scott…what are you doing for the superbowl? Who are you pulling for?

…That probably contributed to my leaving when things got tough, why I staid out so long, and why it took such an effort on God’s part to bring me back in.

If the Orthodox Rabbi posting on another thread knew that God used one of his comrades to do the deed, I don’t know what he’d say…

So, I can tell you from personal experience that expecting to be “snatched away” is simply not doctrine that bears good fruit.

Blessings to you and your household.

In Christ, Michael

 

[The_Cub]

Traditional ANG,

You have taken the referenced text out of context. The text that you quote addresses only the satisfaction of Mat 24:14, and as Scripture states in Romans 10:18, it has been satisfied to the satisfaction of God.

If you read farther in the writing that you refer to, you will find the following (and much more):

"It is also worthy of emphasis that for purposes of the satisfaction of Matthew 24:14 only, at any particular time it is irrelevant whether the Church is engaged in an ongoing evangelization effort, or whether any significant part of the world is in the state of non-belief. Once again, it is the cumulative effort of preaching the Gospel throughout the “world” that is the measure.(4) The Catholic Church teaches that it “exists in order to evangelize” (5), and that it is the primary responsibility of the bishops to assure that the Gospel is preached throughout the world. Furthermore, in 2 Thes. 2, St. Paul speaks of the Great Apostasy or falling away from the faith. Jesus told us in Luke’s Gospel: “When the Son of man comes, will he find faith on earth?” (Cf. Luke 18.8). Satan never sleeps. Clearly, the Church will be involved in some evangelization effort when the Son of Man returns."

Later on it speaks of the “Second Evangelization” as called for by the Popes, in particular, H.H. John Paul II.

God bless you and your family,

Cub

 

[Ozzie]

Traditional Ang:

Ozzie:I’ve read several, including several from Hal Lindsey, who predicted the Rapture and Second Coming in the 1970’s.

I’ve read Lindsey’s books. He never predicted a time or date, he was always careful not to. Based on what he wrote I think he really felt it could take place very soon, but he never predicted a date. It’s wrong to say someone said something when he actually didn’t. Or even imply that they did. Do you not agree?

Protestants Missionaries, most of whom believed in the Pre-Tribulation, believed that Our Lord would save them from any severe trials such as they ones they were goign through during their internment. Because of this, many of them had real crisis of faith and many fell away and lost their faith.

Understanding the Biblical truth that God has not destined the true Church for "the wrath to come" in no way means He always protects believers from *trials *and tribulations of life (even the most severe ones). Only one generation of believers will experience being caught up alive. The rest of the true Church will be resurrected, some of whom were martyred and tortured for their faith in Christ. In all of my research on the subject I have yet to find even one author to suggest that God will protect believers from any severe trials. Nor does the Bible suggest any such thing. The Rapture is not sparing one from the trials of life, but the wrath to come. The “hour of testing” that will come upon the whole world (Rev. 3:10). Christ loves His Church.

I’m not saying your anecdote is false, but it seems a bit too self-serving. What documentation do you have, or is it just hearsay?

 

[Ozzie]

Traditional Ang:

Ozzie:

I can see that you’ve lost the original debate…Or, from the tone of this post, shall I say “Argument”, because you’ve chosen the most childish way possible to start a giant furball by calling every Catholic on the board out for a fight.

That is what you’ve done - Isn’t it?

Ozzie, what you’re doing here, and what you’ve just done, can’t bring glory to Our Lord and His name, only shame to you.

I strongly recommend that you spend some serious time in repentence and prayer before Him before you go any further.

In Christ, Michael

I didn’t take the argument down that road, did I? Did you not see that my post was in response to another’s false accusation? You need to address the one to whom I replied. I didn’t open the door, he did. In my message I warned him not to go down that road. There’s nothing in my message that requires me to repent and pray.

 

[Ozzie]

MaggieOH:

On the other hand I will continue to debate against anyone who claims that the Temple must be rebuilt in Jerusalem.

Well, then you must spend the rest of your life aguing against God’s written Word.

Maggie, you still haven’t answered my question regarding Matt. 24:29.

 

[dennisknapp]

Ozzie:

I’ve read Lindsey’s books. He never predicted a time or date, he was always careful not to. Based on what he wrote I think he really felt it could take place very soon, but he never predicted a date. It’s wrong to say someone said something when he actually didn’t. Or even imply that they did. Do you not agree?Understanding the Biblical truth that God has not destined the true Church for “the wrath to come” in no way means He always protects believers from *trials *and tribulations of life (even the most severe ones). Only one generation of believers will experience being caught up alive. The rest of the true Church will be resurrected, some of whom were martyred and tortured for their faith in Christ. In all of my research on the subject I have yet to find even one author to suggest that God will protect believers from any severe trials. Nor does the Bible suggest any such thing. The Rapture is not sparing one from the trials of life, but the wrath to come. The “hour of testing” that will come upon the whole world (Rev. 3:10). Christ loves His Church.

I’m not saying your anecdote is false, but it seems a bit too self-serving. What documentation do you have, or is it just hearsay?

Has anyone noticed that this issue is more of an American phenomenon? It is because of religious liberty in the US, and other countries, that this is even an issue.

I’m not sure those Christians in China or Iraq even give a rip about pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, his-trib. my-trib, your-trib. It is because we in the West, and particularly America, have grown so soft that even the slightest discomfort would be considered the “wrath” of God.

Peace

 

[Ozzie]

MaggieOH:

On the other hand I will continue to debate against anyone who claims that the Temple must be rebuilt in Jerusalem. That is a very big error, and it shows that those who make this claim do not understand the purpose of Jesus’ death on the Cross. There will not be any more animal sacrifices. Anyone who thinks so should read the prophets again and again until they finally see the Truth. When they do they will have to abandon their error and come back to the Catholic Church.

A few flaws in your logic:

1. The Temple the Jews will build in Jerusalem will be done in unbelief. The fact that it will/must be built is clearly established in Matt. 24:15, which Christ Himself places at the “end of the age” (vs. 3) and just prior to His 2nd Advent (Matt. 24:29-30). Paul confirms this in his letter to the Thessalonians (2 Thess. 2:4), as well does the Apostle John in the Book of Revelation where he is instructed to measure the Temple in Jerusalem which is standing at the time God’s two witnesses will prophesy in Jerusalem for 1260 days (Rev. 11:1-3). This is the time of the Tribulation, i.e., the wrath of God that is to come (Rev. 6:17).

2. To understand and believe that the Word of God teaches that a temple must be be rebuilt in Jerusalem before the 2nd Advent of Christ occurs does not at all suggest one fails to comprehend Christ’s death on the cross. But it does suggest he understands God’s literal Word and does not try to historically manipulate it in order to fit his own preconceived notions or disbelief.

3. To reject God’s literal written Word on this most important theme does not conclude one must then convert to Catholicism. Many Protestants are Post-trib. and Amill. in their eschatology. But their soteriology keeps them from converting to RC’ism. That is, they fully understand the soteriological significance of Christ’s cross.

4. If one (Catholic or Protestant) would read the O.T. prophets again and again, not spiritualizing them to conform to his OWN presuppositions, he would surely see a Temple will also be rebuilt during the Millennial reign of Christ on earth. A glorious Temple like no other before it. Ezekiel, the Hebrew prophet starts out by saying:

EZE 39:23-29 “And the nations will know that the house of Israel went into exile or their iniquity because they acted treacherously against Me, and I hid My face from them; so I gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and all of them fell by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I dealt with them, and I hid My face from them.” Therefore thus says the Lord God, “Now I shall restore the fortunes
of Jacob, and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I shall be jealous for My holy name. And they shall forget their disgrace and all their treachery which they perpetrated against Me, when they live securely on their own land with no one to make them afraid. When I bring them back from the peoples and gather them from the lands of their enemies, then I shall be sanctified through them in the sight of the many nations. (see Matt. 24:29-31) Then they will know that I am the Lord their God because I made them go into exile among the nations, and then gathered them again to their own land; and I will leave none of them there any longer. And I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,” declares the Lord God. (see Zech. 12:10; 14:16)

Ezekiel then goes on in chapters 40-44 to describe IN GREAT DETAIL the glorious Temple that will stand in Jerusalem during Christ’s Millennial reign there. It is no coincidence that Iarael is back as a nation once again in its ancient home land. This is one of the main signs that this Church age is coming to an end and, as the Bride of Christ, will be caught up to meet her Bridegroom in the air, always to be with Him. Even when He returns to this earth after the “hour of testing” that will come upon the whole world.