Myth of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture

[Ozzie]

dennisknapp:

Has anyone noticed that this issue is more of an American phenomenon? It is because of religious liberty in the US, and other countries, that this is even an issue.

I’m not sure those Christians in China or Iraq even give a rip about pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, his-trib. my-trib, your-trib. It is because we in the West, and particularly America, have grown so soft that even the slightest discomfort would be considered the “wrath” of God.

Peace

It’s been fully established that everyday trials and tribulations experienced in this life are not identified with the “wrath” to come. The* “wrath”* to come is a major Biblical theme that should be understood. If God considered it important enough to write about, then we also must consider its importance. Don’t you think? Especially during the times in which we live.

 

[Ozzie]

MaggieOH:

These accusations have nothing to do with the subject of this thread. If you want to make these claims and see what others have to say then start your own thread.

You need to address this to “Briand”, Maggie. I didn’t originate the argument. He’s the one who opened the door and I addressed it. The same procedure would be valid in a court of law. You avoided addressing the originator out of prejudice.

 

[dennisknapp]

Ozzie:

It’s been fully established that everyday trials and tribulations experienced in this life are not identified with the “wrath” to come. The* “wrath”* to come is a major Biblical theme that should be understood. If God considered it important enough to write about, then we also must consider its importance. Don’t you think? Especially during the times in which we live.

But you have to admit it is an American phenomenon.

And what about the times they lived?

Peace

 

[Ozzie]

Cub in your #1:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=437195&postcount=1

You use a LINK from Call To Holiness which made this quote:

Furthermore, in the text of Matthew 24:14 the Greek word, oikoumene is used and translated as world. Scholars hold that it is used in a literal (historical) sense. They hold that it is used here to mean the world of the old Roman Empire. Indeed, certain Greek to English dictionaries state its meaning as: “land, i.e. the (terrene part of the) globe; specially, the Roman empire:–earth, world.”

call2holiness.org/Matthew2414/Matthew2414.htm

I would just like to point out that, in a practical sense, the Church hasn’t accepted what these scholars has said, because She has continued to evangelize and preach the Gospel of Christ beyond the bounds of the Roman Empire for the last 1950 years, beginning with St. Thomas’ MISSION to India, where he was martyred.

It should be considered that the writer of the Gospel was transmitting the words of Jesus himself, who, since He was God Incarnate, knew that the world encompassed far more than the known world of the time. In this case, the Gospel writer did not have to know that the World encompassed any part of the world beyond the Roman Empire. he only had to transmit the words of Our Lord as he actually heard them.

The main problem with any of this is that they’re overlooking a very important part of the text in Matt. 24:14. Christ says, "And this gospel of the KINGDOM shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come" Did you catch that? The “gospel of the kingdom.” Not the gospel of GRACE the Apostles began to preach after the ascension of Christ (Matt. 28:18-20; Acts 2).

“This gospel of the kingdom” is said in the context of the future Tribulation period, of which the Church Christ is building today has no part. Jesus was born “king of the Jews” (Matt. 2:2), the rightful heir to the throne of David. God, by covenant, promised king David an everlasting earthly Kingdom and that one of His descendants would sit upon his throne forever (2 Sam. 7:12-17; Ps. 89:20-37). Jesus is that descendant and with his incarnation the message that the kingdom was “at hand” was preached by John the Baptist (Matt. 3:2), Jesus (Matt. 4:17), and his disciples (Matt. 10:7).

But national Israel rejected their Messiah/King and the kingdom was *postponed *(Matt. 21;43). But during the seven year Tribulation period that is yet to come the "gospel of the Kingdom" will again be preached, only this time not only to national Israel, but to the whole world (Matt. 24:14), just prior to the King’s return to this earth to set up His Kingdom for 1000 years (Matt. 24:29-30).

But during this Church age, the time in which Christ is building His Church, made up of individual believing Jews and Gentiles, the message of salvation through faith in Christ Jesus is to be preached to the whole world - not the “gospel of the kingdom.” The gospel of GRACE has been in the world for two thousand years now!! The message/gospel of the kingdom belongs to a specific time in the future and has nothing to do with this Church age which we are now in. That’s why Jesus said the gospel of the kingdom will be preached to the whole world at that time and then the end shall come, i.e., the end of the age (cf. Matt. 24:3).

 

[Ozzie]

dennisknapp:

But you have to admit it is an American phenomenon.

And what about the times they lived?

Peace

No…it’s a major Biblical theme. I correspond with people from all over the world via e-mail on this great expectation. Some years ago I even ran a BBS (before the Internet) on my computer and conferences were set up specificially for this glorious hope. Believers throughout Europe, Australia and many other countries, where they spoke English, encouraged each other in these truths. No my dear friend, it’s a global hope and understood by millions. God’s word is not provincial.

What do you mean by the times they lived? Biblical prophecy transcends time. Even the prophecies concerning Christ’s incarnation were written hundreds of years before the event took place. For instance:

1PET. 1:10 "As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful search and inquiry,

1PET. 1:11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

1PET. 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven– things into which angels long to look."

 

[dennisknapp]

No…it’s a major Biblical theme. I correspond with people from all over the world via e-mail on this great expectation. Some years ago I even ran a BBS (before the Internet) on my computer and conferences were set up specificially for this glorious hope. Believers throughout Europe, Australia and many other countries, where they spoke English, encouraged each other in these truths. No my dear friend, it’s a global hope and understood by millions. God’s word is not provincial.

What do you mean by the times they lived? Biblical prophecy transcends time. Even the prophecies concerning Christ’s incarnation were written hundreds of years before the event took place. For instance:

1PET. 1:10 "As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful search and inquiry,

1PET. 1:11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

1PET. 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven-- things into which angels long to look."

Ok, its a Western phenomenon. Religious liberty has allowed for this highly speculative venture to even exist.

What we should be focusing on is our own End times. For you and I will have an end to life on earth. We are both going to die, so let’s focus on what truly matters and let God take care of the rest.

Peace

 

[Benadam]

Ozzie:

It’s been fully established that everyday trials and tribulations experienced in this life are not identified with the “wrath” to come. The* “wrath”* to come is a major Biblical theme that should be understood. If God considered it important enough to write about, then we also must consider its importance. Don’t you think? Especially during the times in which we live.

Psalms 77 31 And the wrath of God came upon them. And he slew the fat ones amongst them, and brought down the chosen men of Israel.
3 Baruch 4 9 For she saw the wrath of God coming upon you, and she said: Give ear, all you that dwell near Sion, for God hath brought upon me great mourning:
4 John 3 36 He that believeth in the Son, hath life everlasting; but he that believeth not the Son, shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
7 1 Thessalonians 2 16 Prohibiting us to speak to the Gentiles, that they may be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath of God is come upon them to the end.

These passages show the wrath of God is experienced in people throughout history. Sacrifice reconciles man to God in a similar way that men appease someone they have offended by some act of homage. It also removes the cause of the wrath which is sin. Christ removed it’s cause opening a door enabling Stephen to remove it’s cause from Saul which opened a door to his meeting with Jesus on the road to Damascus. I see nothing to distinguish the wrath to come from the former experiences amongst man of God’s wrath except that it is part of a final event.

The Gospel of Grace is distinguished from the Gospel of the Kingdom only in who Jesus is referencing as opposed to a time being referenced. The Gospel of the Kingdom is relative to those who lead the Church and are guided by the Holy Spirit in what they say to their persecutors who themselves are leaders of nations. Note that Jesus is talking to His Apostles.The Gospel of Grace refers to the action of grace on the baptized and through them the rest of the world. So the Gospel of Grace refers to baptism primarily and the Gospel of the Kingdom refers to teaching through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Ozzie, I have a new appreciation for you. I admire your enthusiasm and courage to expose your belief to scrutiny.

I understand the way prophecy can effect a persons perspective on events in relation to time. This phenomenon is particularly intense in the beginning when a person is first initiated into the wider world of spiritual reality. Even Paul was noticeably off balance because of it. One of the ways it manifests misjudgement is when we are first exposed to and recognize future events through their manifestations in the moment, a feeling of immediacy is experienced that interprets the furure events as something occurring right around the corner. This happens because we have yet to understand that those manifestations in the moment were there long before we noticed them and in fact were always there subliminally. Eventually the very notion of when the events are to occur becomes unimportant and the prophetic gift can take a more functional purpose typified by it’s description in Pauls letters. He had to curb this effect in Thessolonika

Prophecy transcends time but that transcendence doesn’t defines it’s purpose, it is just how it is most obviously distinguished. Remove the need to distinguish it that way and it finds it’s purpose.
I’m not sure why I went into all that, other than a new acceptance of Christ in you, I hope you don’t mind.

 

[MaggieOH]

Traditional Ang:

Ozzie:

I’ve read several, including several from Hal Lindsey, who predicted the Rapture and Second Coming in the 1970’s.

There’s a Scripture "So then, you will know them by their fruits.Ó Matthew 7:20 (NASB) And another But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,Ê Meekness, temperance: Galatians 5:22-23a KJV

During WW II, the Japanese interned every foreign Christian msisionary they could get their hands on.

Protestants Missionaries, most of whom believed in the Pre-Tribulation, believed that Our Lord would save them from any severe trials such as they ones they were goign through during their internment. Because of this, many of them had real crisis of faith and many fell away and lost their faith.

Catholic Missionaries, most of whom had been brought up and trained to believe that they would suffer just like early Christians suffered, suffered very few such crisis of Faith, and fewer still few away for that reason.

As Our Lord said, “You will know them from their fruits”, and as St Ignatius said of the other, “You will know the devul by his tail.”

That’s all I have to say.

Blessings to you and your household.

In Christ, Michael

Michael,

this is an excellent response, and I do see what you are saying very clearly.

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

Ozzie:

A few flaws in your logic:

1. The Temple the Jews will build in Jerusalem will be done in unbelief. The fact that it will/must be built is clearly established in Matt. 24:15, which Christ Himself places at the “end of the age” (vs. 3) and just prior to His 2nd Advent (Matt. 24:29-30). Paul confirms this in his letter to the Thessalonians (2 Thess. 2:4), as well does the Apostle John in the Book of Revelation where he is instructed to measure the Temple in Jerusalem which is standing at the time God’s two witnesses will prophesy in Jerusalem for 1260 days (Rev. 11:1-3). This is the time of the Tribulation, i.e., the wrath of God that is to come (Rev. 6:17).

the literal interpretation that you give to the Book of Revelation is flawed on many levels. It is extremely difficult to address every single flaw in your own logic. However, I will address your first statement in your long winded point one. The Temple is not to be rebuilt because the age of the Old Covenant has passed away, and the destruction of the Temple so thoroughly by the Romans is the proof that it will never be rebuilt again. If Christians are sending money to Jerusalem for the purpose of attempting to rebuild the Temple then they are in grave error because they have not understood the purpose of the Sacrifice on the Cross. The rest of what you say here is just too ridiculous to take seriously at all. Even the other End Times people know better when it comes to understanding the two witnesses. I think that we are in a time of tribulation right now.

Maggie

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Ozzie:

The main problem with any of this is that they’re overlooking a very important part of the text in Matt. 24:14. Christ says, "And this gospel of the KINGDOM shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come" Did you catch that? The “gospel of the kingdom.” Not the gospel of GRACE the Apostles began to preach after the ascension of Christ (Matt. 28:18-20; Acts 2).

“This gospel of the kingdom” is said in the context of the future Tribulation period, of which the Church Christ is building today has no part. Jesus was born “king of the Jews” (Matt. 2:2), the rightful heir to the throne of David. God, by covenant, promised king David an everlasting earthly Kingdom and that one of His descendants would sit upon his throne forever (2 Sam. 7:12-17; Ps. 89:20-37). Jesus is that descendant and with his incarnation the message that the kingdom was “at hand” was preached by John the Baptist (Matt. 3:2), Jesus (Matt. 4:17), and his disciples (Matt. 10:7).

But national Israel rejected their Messiah/King and the kingdom was *postponed *(Matt. 21;43). But during the seven year Tribulation period that is yet to come the "gospel of the Kingdom" will again be preached, only this time not only to national Israel, but to the whole world (Matt. 24:14), just prior to the King’s return to this earth to set up His Kingdom for 1000 years (Matt. 24:29-30).

But during this Church age, the time in which Christ is building His Church, made up of individual believing Jews and Gentiles, the message of salvation through faith in Christ Jesus is to be preached to the whole world - not the “gospel of the kingdom.” The gospel of GRACE has been in the world for two thousand years now!! The message/gospel of the kingdom belongs to a specific time in the future and has nothing to do with this Church age which we are now in. That’s why Jesus said the gospel of the kingdom will be preached to the whole world at that time and then the end shall come, i.e., the end of the age (cf. Matt. 24:3).

Ozzie:

The Cub answered this objection with his #211:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=458198&postcount=211
I think you might want to read it.

I also believe that you won’t find anything in the texts you’re citing that state that there will be a Pre-Tribulational Rapture. They do, however support the Doctrine of the Second Coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, which doesn’t require the modern notion of a Pre-Tribulational Rapture in order for it to occur.

Ozzie, try reading Hal Lindsey’s Late, Great, Planet Earth. In that book, he says he believes the world’s going to end very soon, within a matter of a few years, and that some of those who witnessed at the founding of the Nation of Israel (as adults) would still be alive when Our Lord returned. It was published in 1973.

That sounds like a prediction to me.

I fail to see how maintaining this new and novl Doctrine can lead to strengthening anyone’s faith. I think you need to ask yourself this one question.

The Fathers of the Church all spoke about the Second coming of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. None spoke about a “Pre-Tribulation Rapture”. Why? Why is this Doctrine NOT mentioned in any of the Church’s Creeds, but the Second Coming is is mentioned in them ALL?

Ozzie, If this doctrine is so important to the Faith of the people of God, why was it discloesed to a Protestant churchman by the name of Darby only 150 years ago?

Why not to all of those Doctors of the church both East and West?

Blessings to you and your family,.

In Christ, Michael

 

[MaggieOH]

Traditional Ang:

Ozzie:

I can see that you’ve lost the original debate…Or, from the tone of this post, shall I say “Argument”, because you’ve chosen the most childish way possible to start a giant furball by calling every Catholic on the board out for a fight.

That is what you’ve done - Isn’t it?

Ozzie, what you’re doing here, and what you’ve just done, can’t bring glory to Our Lord and His name, only shame to you.

I strongly recommend that you spend some serious time in repentence and prayer before Him before you go any further.

In Christ, Michael

 

[MaggieOH]

No…it’s a major Biblical theme. I correspond with people from all over the world via e-mail on this great expectation. Some years ago I even ran a BBS (before the Internet) on my computer and conferences were set up specificially for this glorious hope. Believers throughout Europe, Australia and many other countries, where they spoke English, encouraged each other in these truths. No my dear friend, it’s a global hope and understood by millions. God’s word is not provincial.

What do you mean by the times they lived? Biblical prophecy transcends time. Even the prophecies concerning Christ’s incarnation were written hundreds of years before the event took place. For instance:

1PET. 1:10 "As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful search and inquiry,

1PET. 1:11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

1PET. 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven-- things into which angels long to look."

Scriptural prophesy is an interpretation by the prophets of events in their own time. That is why in the Book of Isaiah there is a double meaning, one that applies to the time of Isaiah, and one that had a future meaning, that was pointed out by Jesus to His Apostles so that they understood how the prophets were referring to His manifestation on the earth.

The big BIBLICAL event that happened when all of these things were written is **the sacking of Jerusalem by the pagan Romans. **The wrath of God was prophesied by Jesus when He gave the Olivet discourse. That coming wrath was fulfilled when the Temple was destroyed.

However, that does not mean in the ages that have passed since that time there has not been a repeat of this wrath of God. There have been a lot of wars over a long period of time. One of the prophecies in the Book of Revelation was also fulfilled when pagan Rome was sacked by the Visgoths. Since those early days we have seen the rise and fall of many nations and empires. For example after the fall of the Roman Empire we saw the eventual rise of the British Empire, and in my own lifetime I have seen how the British Empire has declined to the point of near disintegration.

There is nothing new under the sun. There is just a continuing repeat of people falling into apostasy, that is turning away from God in favour of sin, and the unleashing of some cataclysmic world event that could be taken as being the wrath of God. There have been eruptions of volcanoes, Tsunamis, earthquakes and other natural disasters that have had devastating consequences. The nations involved in the Russian Empire were enslaved to communism, but there has been a Christian renewal indicating the triumph of the Two Hearts in Russia.

Yes, I even saw some Scriptural aspects in the downfall of Saddam Hussein. I refer to the toppling of his statue when the people beat their slippers upon that statue as though it was Saddam. The symbolism of that action was reminiscent of the end to the life of Jezebel when she was thrown from the window and her body left to the dogs.

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

Ozzie:

Well, then you must spend the rest of your life aguing against God’s written Word.

Maggie, you still haven’t answered my question regarding Matt. 24:29.

all questions were answered.

Also you are wrong. What is to come is God’s Kingdom. The Temple of Solomon and the temple described by Ezekiel are a microcosm of the Temple of God in the Heavens.

The Church itself is the new Temple. There will not be a new physical Temple in Jerusalem. To say so is to misinterpret the Scripture.

Maggie

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Maggie:

There’s another Thread on Judaism “just down the road”, and the Orthodox Jew providing commentary from that POV has stated that he knows of 2 cases were Animal Sacrifice was reinstated (during the Bar Kochba Rebllion and, possibly, during the reign of Julian the Apostate):

Re: Priests and Levites - Stillsmallvoice - #3
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=435319&postcount=3

MaggieOH:

the literal interpretation that you give to the Book of Revelation is flawed on many levels. It is extremely difficult to address every single flaw in your own logic. However, I will address your first statement in your long winded point one. The Temple is not to be rebuilt because the age of the Old Covenant has passed away, and the destruction of the Temple so thoroughly by the Romans is the proof that it will never be rebuilt again. If Christians are sending money to Jerusalem for the purpose of attempting to rebuild the Temple then they are in grave error because they have not understood the purpose of the Sacrifice on the Cross. The rest of what you say here is just too ridiculous to take seriously at all. Even the other End Times people know better when it comes to understanding the two witnesses. I think that we are in a time of tribulation right now.

Maggie

…According to the Gospel and the New Covenant, there is NO need for a Temple to be built in Jerusalem. But from the POV of the Orthodox Jew above, one needs tro be guilt so that the Jews may fulfill their obligations under the Old Covenant.

There are many Christians who believe that they are “Blessing the Jews” when they collect money to help them pay for the enterprise of building this Temple of God so that they can draw near and make sacrifice as prescibed in the book of Leviticus.

They are still others who believe, as you fear, that they are hastening the Day of our Our Lord’s coming by helping the Jews build their Temple.

On your later point, I’m afraid that you might be right, and that things will get a LOT worse before they get better.

May God bless you and your family.

In Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Ozzie:

The appropriate thing to do if you believe that someone has made a false acccusation is to call our attention to it, identifying it clearly by Post # and Link. The link can be produced by clicking on the underlined number in the upper right hand corner and then doing a “copy-paste” to you post. You’ll see that I’ve done it on a couple of posts here…

Ozzie:

I didn’t take the argument down that road, did I? Did you not see that my post was in response to another’s false accusation? You need to address the one to whom I replied. I didn’t open the door, he did. In my message I warned him not to go down that road. There’s nothing in my message that requires me to repent and pray.

…That still doesn’t absolve you from what you did, which was to respons to the “provocation” by calling all the Catholic posters out to a fight. You might not understand that that’s what you did, but that is what this post did.

Re: Myth of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture - OZZIE - 201

One could say as much for the church of Rome. I’ve been to the Vatican and I’ve seen the jewel studded crowns and other paraphernalia it has on display. These things weren’t bought by the Pope writing best selling books. While we’re at it, how about the sale of indulgences? Do you really want to take the debate down this rocky road? I don’t think so. You best leave it alone and try to add something with substance to the thead.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=457762&postcount=201

What I said to you stands. I believe that you need to repent of what you said. It was uncalled for and inexcusable in any forum dedicated to the glory of God and the edification of his people.

May God bless you and and bring you peace.

In Christ, Michael

 

[MaggieOH]

Traditional Ang:

Maggie:

There’s another Thread on Judaism “just down the road”, and the Orthodox Jew providing commentary from that POV has stated that he knows of 2 cases were Animal Sacrifice was reinstated (during the Bar Kochba Rebllion and, possibly, during the reign of Julian the Apostate):

Re: Priests and Levites - Stillsmallvoice - #3
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=435319&postcount=3

…According to the Gospel and the New Covenant, there is NO need for a Temple to be built in Jerusalem. But from the POV of the Orthodox Jew above, one needs tro be guilt so that the Jews may fulfill their obligations under the Old Covenant.

There are many Christians who believe that they are “Blessing the Jews” when they collect money to help them pay for the enterprise of building this Temple of God so that they can draw near and make sacrifice as prescibed in the book of Leviticus.

They are still others who believe, as you fear, that they are hastening the Day of our Our Lord’s coming by helping the Jews build their Temple.

On your later point, I’m afraid that you might be right, and that things will get a LOT worse before they get better.

May God bless you and your family.

In Christ, Michael

Michael,

thanks for the information that you provided. From what I saw of the references provided by SSV I do not think that the evidence is too strong that anything was restored in those periods. In fact the second reference that related to Julian the Apostate claimed that the story itself was false (and slandered St. Gregory of Nanzianes at the same time).

If these people believe that it is necessary to restore the Temple for the Jews, then they truly have failed to understand the promises of Christ, and the purpose of the New Testament.

We live in the Age (Era) of Grace and this started when the Old Age passed away when the Temple was destroyed. The prophecy of Malachi is that there would no longer be any animal sacrifice (I know that disagrees with SSV) and that there would be a pure offering to the Lord that will be offered from east and west and from all of the nations. What was prophesied is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass where we bring forth an offering of bread and wine, and where we remember the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Maggie

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Maggie:

Remember, the Jews don’t understand the promises given to them in the Tenach about the coming of the Messiah and the forgivenenss of sins. They chose the wrong guy instead, one Shimon bar Kochba who led them in revolt against the Roman Empire from 132-135 AD…

MaggieOH:

Michael,

thanks for the information that you provided. From what I saw of the references provided by SSV I do not think that the evidence is too strong that anything was restored in those periods. In fact the second reference that related to Julian the Apostate claimed that the story itself was false (and slandered St. Gregory of Nanzianes at the same time).

If these people believe that it is necessary to restore the Temple for the Jews, then they truly have failed to understand the promises of Christ, and the purpose of the New Testament.

We live in the Age (Era) of Grace and this started when the Old Age passed away when the Temple was destroyed. The prophecy of Malachi is that there would no longer be any animal sacrifice (I know that disagrees with SSV) and that there would be a pure offering to the Lord that will be offered from east and west and from all of the nations. What was prophesied is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass where we bring forth an offering of bread and wine, and where we remember the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Maggie

…The overwhelming majority of those sending money to help with building the Temple don’t believe in or understand the Sacrifice of the Eucharist or that we participate in that first Eucharist each time we hear the Priest say the words, "On the night in which he was betrayed,…Christ took the bread, and said, ‘This is my body. Do this in rememberance of me’…‘This is my Blood, the Blood of the new and everlasting covenant. Do this in rememberance of me.’"

Regarding the slanders against St. Gregory of Nanzianes, the Jews are reacting to some 1,700 years of lethal, Christian anti-Semitism. During this time, 100,000’s of them were killed in the name of Our Lord by members of the Church (Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant) and by the Civil Authorities allied with them. That’s why they have such a hard time internally accepting that Christians died with them in the ovens at Auschwitz, or that Pope Pius XII risked his papacy to save some 840,000 of them from those very same ovens. And, That’s why Pope John Paul II apologized and begged for their forgiveness.

It’s just too bad the various brands of Orthodox haven’t done the same for their POGROMS against the Jews.

It’s going to take a long time for then to forgive the 100,000’s of their people murdered combined Churches and their offshoots. When they begin to do this, and to personally accept that Chistians did risk their lives and died with them in those horrible death camps of the 3rd Reich, they’ll come into the Church by the 100,000’s, fulfilling the prophecies of the Church Fathers about what must come BEFORE Our Lord returns.

If I remember correctly, St. Malachi listed the Popes, and there are 2 left on his list after John Paul.

May God bless you and your household.

Good Night, Michael

 

[Ozzie]

dennisknapp:

Ok, its a Western phenomenon. Religious liberty has allowed for this highly speculative venture to even exist.

What we should be focusing on is our own End times. For you and I will have an end to life on earth. We are both going to die, so let’s focus on what truly matters and let God take care of the rest.

Peace

Is Roman Catholicism a “Western phenomenon?” The difference is the true Church is world wide and when the Rapture occurs (and it will) believers living all over the world will be taken up. You can’t regionalize it.

Actually, it’s spiritually healthful to live every day knowing that Christ could come for His true Church at any time. That we could see Him face to face at any moment. It would be depressing to wake up every morning thinking or hoping that today I am going to die, but it is not depressing to live with the expectation of Christ coming for His true Church. The Apostle John says:

1JO 3:1 See how great a love the Father has bestowed upon us, that we should be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.

1JO 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we shall be. We know that, when He appears, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him just as He is.

1JO 3:3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

And the Apostle says to the Thessalonians after informing them of the future rapture of the Church (1 Thess. 4:15-18), *“Therefore comfort one another with these words.” *

Consider this also, the doctrine of “Purgatory” is not in the Bible (despite what your apologists tell you), yet the rapture of the true Church most definitely is. The two doctrines cannot co-exist, they’re in opposition one to another. I will opt for the Biblical one, the one based on God’s immutable Word. How about you?

 

[Ozzie]

Traditional Ang:

What I said to you stands. I believe that you need to repent of what you said. It was uncalled for and inexcusable in any forum dedicated to the glory of God and the edification of his people.

I notice you don’t say this to the originator of the argument. Of course not, because you agree with him. It’s called prejudice. Maybe you need to do a little heart searching yourself.

Sorry, but I said nothing against God in my reply to this man’s accusations.

 

[Ozzie]

MaggieOH:

all questions were answered.

No, you have not yet answered my question regarding Matt. 24:29-30. Please answer it.

Also you are wrong. What is to come is God’s Kingdom. The Temple of Solomon and the temple described by Ezekiel are a microcosm of the Temple of God in the Heavens.

The only way you can come up with that interpretation is for YOU to spiritualize those chapters. But the prophet gives absolutely no indication that his writings are to be understood as an allegory. You’re imposing your own will on God’s.

The Church itself is the new Temple. There will not be a new physical Temple in Jerusalem. To say so is to misinterpret the Scripture.

Where in the Bible does it say the Church is the NEW Temple? Now it’s true Paul spiritually describes the true Church a “a” holy temple in the Lord" (Eph. 2:20-23), afterall, all true believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, but he does not say the Church is THE NEW Temple. You are not an Apostle, you have no authority to form new doctrines.