D
dennisknapp
Guest
Ok, so 1 1/2 Second Comings–one is the air, which is half way to Earth, and one to the Earth. So, 1 1/2…Still not just one.
Peace
- Status
Peace
O
Ozzie
Guest
It still can be considered ONE Second Coming, just in two phases. Phase one: coming for His Church/Bride in the air. Phase two: His actual descent TO EARTH at least 7years later with His Bride.
At that time He sets up His Kingdom on earth for 1000 years, just as the Bible reveals it.
Matt. 25 is in the CONTEXT of phase two: His descent to EARTH in glory with His pre-Raptured Bride. Then He sits on His glorious throne and all the nations (Gentiles) are gathered before Him and He enters into judgment with them. These are Gentiles living on earth at the time He returns. He separates them: the “sheep” (believers) to His right, the “goats” (unbelievers) to His left. The believing “sheep” enter and enjoy the earthly Kingdom as mortals. The unbelieving “goats” are cast off to await the White Throne Judgment which takes place AFTER Christ’s 1000 year reign on earth (Rev. 20:11ff).
The “brothers” of Christ in Matt. 25:40 refer to believing Jews who were being persecuted by Antichrist during the seven year Tribulation period (the 70th Week of Daniel) just prior to Christ’s return. Those Gentiles understood the “gospel of the Kingdom” (Matt. 24:14) that was being preached by the 144,000 Jews (Rev. 7:3-8), they believed in the coming Messiah/King, believed that the Kingdom was “at hand,” and committed acts of kindness toward Christ’s persecuted, Jewish, believing “brethren.”
None of this has to do with the Church today. It is future and in context belongs to the Tribulation period yet to come. The true Church is taken up to be with Christ before that time of *wrath *comes on earth.
D
dennisknapp
Guest
Whow! One Second Coming in two phases? Where do you get that?
Also, where is it revealed in Matt. 25 the fiction you just mentioned? Where is there two phases in Matt. 25?
Where does it say any of this– “Matt. 25 is in the CONTEXT of phase two: His descent to EARTH in glory with His pre-Raptured Bride. Then He sits on His glorious throne and all the nations (Gentiles) are gathered before Him and He enters into judgment with them. These are Gentiles living on earth at the time He returns. He separates them: the “sheep” (believers) to His right, the “goats” (unbelievers) to His left. The believing “sheep” enter and enjoy the earthly Kingdom as mortals. The unbelieving “goats” are cast off to await the White Throne Judgment which takes place AFTER Christ’s 1000 year reign on earth (Rev. 20:11ff)”–in the context of Matt. 25?
Cont.
D
dennisknapp
Guest
Here is the text in question. Please show me where you got all that you just posted from the text?
Matt. 25:31-46.
**The Sheep and the Goats **
31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34“Then the King will say to those on his right, **‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ **
37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40**“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’**
41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ 46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Peace
Matt. 25:31-46.
**The Sheep and the Goats **
31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34“Then the King will say to those on his right, **‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ **
37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40**“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’**
41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ 46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Peace
O
Ozzie
Guest
Matt. 25:31-46 doesn’t stand alone. As much as you would like it to, so that you can just apply it to one’s own eschatological scheme, it actually fits into all of what Scripture itself has to reveal. In a previous message I said “If you allow the Scriptures to speak for themselves, if you allow for a literal delineation of the prophetic Scriptures…” In other words you need to do a study of BIBLICAL eschatology. When you do, then, and only then, can you know how the text in question fits in. You just can’t lift it out of context and apply it to your own prophetic, end times scheme.
“When the Son of man comes in His glory” is a direct reference to Matt. 24:29-31 which is describing His 2nd Advent to this earth. The text states that at this time “He will sit on His glorious throne.” This is referring to the Davidic throne. While in Heaven Jesus was sharing His Father’s throne (cf. Rev. 3:21) and operating as the believer’s High Priest (Heb. 7:25) and Advocate before the Father (1 Jn. 2:1); but now He ascends the throne of David, the throne on which He was born to rule (Matt. 2:2).
This is a paraphrase, it’s not in the Original Greek. The (Gr. ethne) nations are gathered before Him and He identifies them, individually, as sheep and goats. “Sheep” in Scripture is identified as followers of Christ (i.e., true believers, Jn. 10:4, 26). The “goats” here are identified as unbelievers because they’re eventually end cast off.
The sheep on His right inherit the kingdom. Now, mind you, the text speaks nothing of a general resurrection of the dead here. Christ returns to the earth, ascends His rightful, glorious throne, nations are gathered before Him, judged as “sheep” or “goats,” the sheep inherit the kingdom, the “goats” do not. Don’t read something into the text that which is not there. It says NOTHING about a resurrection of all the dead throughout time. This does not take place until the “white throne judgment” after the 1000 years of Christ’s reign on earth (see. Rev. 20:11-15 - and in the context and sequence of Revelation chapters 19 and 20).
Matt. 25:31-46 is an earthly scene. Christ has come back to this earth as King of kings and Lord of Lords (cf. Rev. 19:11-16). The “kingdom” the “sheep” on His right inherit is not Heavenly (nor is it Heaven), but earthly. It is not the eternal state, these “sheep” are mortal and the “kingdom” they enter is on earth, earthly. If you ever studied the glorious kingdom prophecies in the O.T., you’d know that it is that promised, Messianic Kingdom that these “sheep” inherit.
The events described in Matt. chapters 24-25 are the beginning of Christ’s promised, earthly, Davidic, Kingdom revealed by the O.T. prophets. It’s what He’s come back to fulfill as Israel’s rightful King, to reign and rule upon David’s throne on this present earth from Jerusalem for 1000 years (see Zech. 14).
REV 19:15 “And from His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may smite the nations; and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.”
In a previous post you asked:
The problem is, Dennis, if all the believers are taken up to meet the Lord in the air just prior to Christ’s 2nd Advent to this earth, then there would be no “sheep” left on earth to separate from the “goats” as described in Matt. 25:31-34. All that would be left on earth is “goats.” 1 Thess. 4:17 does not nor cannot fit the context of Matt. 25:31-34.
M
MaggieOH
Guest
:tsktsk: there is an abundance of self interpretation here that is not truly substantiated from the Scripture. I see that all the protestation of Bible alone is a myth, because I think that all of these ideas are written and taught in Dispensationalist books.
Maggie
D
dennisknapp
Guest
So, what you are saying is that if we do some major interpretive gymnastics, we can come up with any interpretation we want?
The way you have interpreted this passage is highly unusual and is even a minority view among Protestants.
Peace
M
MaggieOH
Guest
:tsktsk: Careful, Ozzie is losing the argument and is attempting a diversion. Do not fall for it.
Maggie
T
Traditional_Ang
Guest
Ozzie:
I’ve read what you actually said, which was manifestly offensive. If you’d red the thread, you’ll see that I did a DEFENSE of you against another poster, in spite of the fact that I disagreed with your overall point:
Re: Myth of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture - # 205:
*…But since it is impossible to prove a negative, as a matter of Law, it is incumbant on the accuser to prove the positive. The usual standard in historical matters is clear and compelling evidence that demonstrates to that your accusation is more likely to be true than not to the preponderance of the evidence.
Ozzie was right on this one. It was up to you to demonstrate that the person in question had an association with Darby.
I know this will probably make me as popular with you as a meat dish in a restaurant full of Catholics on Friday in Lent, but that’s the normal standard for historical and civil inquiry.*
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=457942&postcount=205
Ozzie:
Re: Myth of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture - #201
One could say as much for the church of Rome. I’ve been to the Vatican and I’ve seen the jewel studded crowns and other paraphernalia it has on display. These things weren’t bought by the Pope writing best selling books. While we’re at it, how about the sale of indulgences? Do you really want to take the debate down this rocky road? I don’t think so. You best leave it alone and try to add something with substance to the thead.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=457762&postcount=201
BTW, some writers writing on the “Last Days” have made a ton of money, and there’s NOTHING WRONG with that, so long as they really believe that they’re telling the truth!
I’ve finally found Briand’s original post:
Re: Myth of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture - #190
Actually it is a good business, some have made quite abit off this view. I guess that makes it true, if not true it is effective.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=456023&postcount=190
You reponse was a dramatic overreaction. I strongly urge you to apologize to the other members and to move on! Is it really that hard for you to do that?
Blessings be upom you.
In Christ, Michael
I’ve read what you actually said, which was manifestly offensive. If you’d red the thread, you’ll see that I did a DEFENSE of you against another poster, in spite of the fact that I disagreed with your overall point:
Re: Myth of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture - # 205:
*…But since it is impossible to prove a negative, as a matter of Law, it is incumbant on the accuser to prove the positive. The usual standard in historical matters is clear and compelling evidence that demonstrates to that your accusation is more likely to be true than not to the preponderance of the evidence.
Ozzie was right on this one. It was up to you to demonstrate that the person in question had an association with Darby.
I know this will probably make me as popular with you as a meat dish in a restaurant full of Catholics on Friday in Lent, but that’s the normal standard for historical and civil inquiry.*
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=457942&postcount=205
…Ozzie, you’ve given me NOTHING to justify the personal attack on every single Catholic on the board that this post represented:
Re: Myth of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture - #201
One could say as much for the church of Rome. I’ve been to the Vatican and I’ve seen the jewel studded crowns and other paraphernalia it has on display. These things weren’t bought by the Pope writing best selling books. While we’re at it, how about the sale of indulgences? Do you really want to take the debate down this rocky road? I don’t think so. You best leave it alone and try to add something with substance to the thead.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=457762&postcount=201
BTW, some writers writing on the “Last Days” have made a ton of money, and there’s NOTHING WRONG with that, so long as they really believe that they’re telling the truth!
I’ve finally found Briand’s original post:
Re: Myth of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture - #190
Actually it is a good business, some have made quite abit off this view. I guess that makes it true, if not true it is effective.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=456023&postcount=190
You reponse was a dramatic overreaction. I strongly urge you to apologize to the other members and to move on! Is it really that hard for you to do that?
Blessings be upom you.
In Christ, Michael
T
Traditional_Ang
Guest
Ozzie:
The Christians in Judea and Samaria fled across the Jordan River during a break in break in the fighting, as they we ordered by Our Lord. Thus, the early Christians in Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria were saved from almost certain death at the hands of the Romans…
Ozzie:
Christ will come again, just NOT in the way you say he is! The prophecies will all have their final fulfilment, but NOT in the way you say!
As I said once before, if the RAPTURE were something that God wanted Christians to know, don’t you think he would have told the EARLY CHURCH or the UNDIVIDED CHURCH which actually BOUND the LIST OF CANONICAL BOOKS?!?
Blessings to you.
On Christ, Michael
The Christians in Judea and Samaria fled across the Jordan River during a break in break in the fighting, as they we ordered by Our Lord. Thus, the early Christians in Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria were saved from almost certain death at the hands of the Romans…
…Many of these prophecies have MULTIPLE Fulfillments, but NONE of the ones in Matt. speak of a RAPTURE! And, the two verses (when read in context) in 1 Thess. very clearly state that you and I and have been saved from eternal seperation from God and the fires of hell that await the Devil and his angels.
Christ will come again, just NOT in the way you say he is! The prophecies will all have their final fulfilment, but NOT in the way you say!
As I said once before, if the RAPTURE were something that God wanted Christians to know, don’t you think he would have told the EARLY CHURCH or the UNDIVIDED CHURCH which actually BOUND the LIST OF CANONICAL BOOKS?!?
Blessings to you.
On Christ, Michael
M
MaggieOH
Guest
The audience of the Gospels in particular understood the meaning of “imminent” to mean something unexpected would come. This happened when Jerusalem was sacked by the Romans. It has been guesstimated that around 1 million Jews died at the hands of the Romans.
Also, the Hebrew had an understanding different from our own on such things as the Christ coming in the clouds. This understanding is explained to some extent in the Book of Isaiah, and again in the Book of Exodus (only two examples).
The Book of Exodus explains to us that when the Hebrew escaped from the Egyptians, Yahweh protected them. How? A pillar of cloud came between the Egyptians and the fleeing Hebrew. One group saw darkness and the other was provided with light (see Ex 14:19-21). It is also reported that “Yahweh in the pillar of cloud and fire looked towards the Egyptian camp and threw it into confusion” (Ex 14:24)
How then is the Theophany explained in the Book of Exodus? It is in the following way:
“On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning and a dense cloud over the mountain and a very loud trumpet was heard… The whole mountain shook violently, while the blast of the trumpet became louder and louder” (Ex 19: 16-19)
All of the synoptic Gospels contain a version of the Olivet Discourse give sufficient detail to indicate that Jesus did prophesy the fall of Jerusalem as well as making a prophesy for the end of the world. What then is the purpose? According to one commentary the Jews of Jesus’ time expected the day of God’s Judgment to mean terror for the godless and glory for the chosen people. The splendour of the temple is a sign of that glory. What Jesus says is that the temple is not going to last; it will be destroyed.
Before considering any further interpretation of Biblical End Times literature we need to understand the proper perspective. There will not be a two part second coming as some have claimed. The Scripture says:
“But in those days after the tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light…” (Mk 13:24)
There will not be any “rapture” of the “elect”.
MaggieOH
Also, the Hebrew had an understanding different from our own on such things as the Christ coming in the clouds. This understanding is explained to some extent in the Book of Isaiah, and again in the Book of Exodus (only two examples).
The Book of Exodus explains to us that when the Hebrew escaped from the Egyptians, Yahweh protected them. How? A pillar of cloud came between the Egyptians and the fleeing Hebrew. One group saw darkness and the other was provided with light (see Ex 14:19-21). It is also reported that “Yahweh in the pillar of cloud and fire looked towards the Egyptian camp and threw it into confusion” (Ex 14:24)
How then is the Theophany explained in the Book of Exodus? It is in the following way:
“On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning and a dense cloud over the mountain and a very loud trumpet was heard… The whole mountain shook violently, while the blast of the trumpet became louder and louder” (Ex 19: 16-19)
All of the synoptic Gospels contain a version of the Olivet Discourse give sufficient detail to indicate that Jesus did prophesy the fall of Jerusalem as well as making a prophesy for the end of the world. What then is the purpose? According to one commentary the Jews of Jesus’ time expected the day of God’s Judgment to mean terror for the godless and glory for the chosen people. The splendour of the temple is a sign of that glory. What Jesus says is that the temple is not going to last; it will be destroyed.
Before considering any further interpretation of Biblical End Times literature we need to understand the proper perspective. There will not be a two part second coming as some have claimed. The Scripture says:
“But in those days after the tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light…” (Mk 13:24)
There will not be any “rapture” of the “elect”.
MaggieOH
O
Ozzie
Guest
Traditional Ang:
And this I appreciate.
This is an overreaction.
Then why didn’t you write that to “Briand.” But you know exactly what his intention was.
My response was adequate and nothing in it was false. The RCC has many extremely valuable items and historically indulgenses were sold for church revenue. What’s your problem?
O
Ozzie
Guest
To the contrary, it’s all very substantiated by Scripture, and you know it. The Pre-Trib./Pre-Mill. view is totally based on a literal interpretation of the Scriptures and a literal delineation of the O.T. prophetic writings. In other words, it’s rooted in and supported by what God has revealed, not simply what men have determined they want to believe.
But you still haven’t answered my question, Maggie, on Matt. 24:29-30. “Immediately after the tribulation of those days” (ref. Matt. 24:21) the Son of Man comes in great glory and ALL the world sees Him. And when He returns He gathers together His elect. Please tell me what month in 70 A.D. this all took place.
I’ve presented no diversion on this thread. In fact, I’ve presented more Scriptural evidence for my eschatological position than anyone here. You avoid my question and just cut and paste from writings of people with whom you agree. Demonstrating that you’ve done no research of the prophetic Scriptures yourself. Others on this thread make sarcastic and ad hominem remarks with funny pictures, but no Scriptural substance.
I will have lost the argument when you can tell what month in 70 A.D. the world saw the coming of the Son of Man in glory. I’m waiting… If Christ came back to this earth in all His glory in 70 A.D., why then is this world system still in such a mess?
O
Ozzie
Guest
Traditional Ang:
The destruction of Jerusalem by Titus in 70 A.D is not the "wrath" Paul told the Thessalonian believers that they were not destine for. Jesus called it “the hour of testing” which will come upon the WHOLE world, not just Judea (Rev. 3:10), and not just Jews. In Revelation 6:17, the breaking of the seals is referred to as the great day of their “wrath.” And what follows in the Book of Revelation are world wide devastations (Rev. 6 -18)
1 Thess. 1:10 and 5:9 are not talking in the context of Hell and eternal separation from God, as you assume. 1 Thess. 5:2 puts Paul’s teaching on being delivered from wrath in the context of the yet future “Day of the Lord” (read 1 Thess. 5:1-11). This is an earthly event, an earthly time. And Paul continues with that same “Day of the Lord” theme in his 2nd letter to the Thessalonians (2 Thess. 2:1-12). Please see my posts #178 & 179.
This is historically true, but in the CONTEXT of Matt. 24, Jesus is not making reference to that time. Because He states in verse 29 that “immediately after the tribulation of those days” the Son of Man returns in glory. You and Maggie cannot rationalize around that verse which puts what Christ is saying in historical context.
The destruction of Jerusalem by Titus in 70 A.D is not the "wrath" Paul told the Thessalonian believers that they were not destine for. Jesus called it “the hour of testing” which will come upon the WHOLE world, not just Judea (Rev. 3:10), and not just Jews. In Revelation 6:17, the breaking of the seals is referred to as the great day of their “wrath.” And what follows in the Book of Revelation are world wide devastations (Rev. 6 -18)
I never said Matt.24 speaks of the Rapture of the Church. Why would I? Matt. 24 has nothing to do with the Church. In context Jesus is addressing Jews in Jerusalem, the “Abomination of Desolation,” the Temple, Judea, the Sabbath, etc. Against the orders of Titus, the soldiers destroyed the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 A.D. They did not set up the “Abomination of Desolation” in the Holy Place, spoken about by Daniel. In fact, Titus looked inside and then just walked away. These prophecies are yet to be fulfilled and have nothing to do with the Church Christ is building today called out from both Jews and Gentiles.
The wrath of God is not restricted to eternal separation from God or the abode of those eternally separated from Him (Hell, the “Lake of Fire”). All unbelievers are called “vessels of wrath” (Rom. 9:22; cf. Jn. 3:36) and are destined for destruction, i.e., eternal separation from God, if they refuse to turn from their unbelief to belief in Christ before they die. But there is a Divine wrath that is yet to come upon this earth (Rev. 6:17). And whether it be the wrath of God resulting in eternal destruction (separation), or the wrath that is yet to come upon this world, the Church is not destined for either; it is not destined for any kind of Divine wrath. Christ does not bring wrath upon His own “Body,” His own “Bride.” You fail to understand this simple concept because you fail to understand the Biblical definition of the Church.
1 Thess. 1:10 and 5:9 are not talking in the context of Hell and eternal separation from God, as you assume. 1 Thess. 5:2 puts Paul’s teaching on being delivered from wrath in the context of the yet future “Day of the Lord” (read 1 Thess. 5:1-11). This is an earthly event, an earthly time. And Paul continues with that same “Day of the Lord” theme in his 2nd letter to the Thessalonians (2 Thess. 2:1-12). Please see my posts #178 & 179.
D
dennisknapp
Guest
You see Ozzie, its in two phases. One phase in when the “Abomination of Desolation” takes place and the other is when Jesus returns in glory.
Don’t you see this? One event two phases, its clear to me.
Peace
B
Benadam
Guest
Hi Dennis,
you’re right, and this struggle has been echoed at the beginning and ending of ages since the dawn of time.
An internal spiritual interpretation is the abomination is a lie, the desolation is that it’s complete in it’s replacement of it’s opposite Truth, and the Holy place is the sanctuary of God in man, his heart or conscience where the law of God is written and completely replaced by another law based on lies that we accept from our infancy and cling too in fear.
M
MaggieOH
Guest
Go back and read my post about cosmology. I have already given you the answer that there is not a literal understanding in the sense that you want.
Everything that was supposed to happen at that time happened when the Temple of Jerusalem was destroyed. That does not mean that there will not be a Second Coming, which will be the Last Judgement.
Go do some further reading on the subject, because there are plenty of theologians who disagree with the interpretation that you give.
MaggieOH
T
Traditional_Ang
Guest
Brothers and Sisters in the Lord:
If the Early Church Fathers are right, this is a important:
**Messianic Parallels: The Lubavitcher Jews and the Neocatechumenals
by Sandro Magister **
*ROMA, February 16, 2005 - In an extensive interview in the first issue of “Oasis,” the new international magazine of the patriarchate of Venice, the Custodian of the Holy Land, Franciscan Fr. Pierbattista Pizzaballa, speaks of the “Israeli Jews who have encountered Christ and received baptism.”
In Israel, he says, these amount to “several hundred persons.” And he foresees that they will remain few in number: “Judaism does not allow for conversion. Of course, the state does not forbid making different choices. But there is a lack of understanding, and tension.” For this reason, Hebrew Christians maintain “a certain discretion” and “do not make an excessive show of their Christian identity; they do not provoke or constrain those around them to take too much notice of them.”
But these are the Jews who have entered the Catholic Church, and have a bishop exclusively for themselves. Because there are also others, more numerous, without a relationship with the Church. They simply believe that the Jesus of the New Testament is the Messiah who will return at the end of time. They are the “messianic Jews,” and Fr. Pizzaballa estimates that there are “thousands” of them. Both the first and the second kind come predominantly from religious Judaism, which is generally called “Orthodox.” *
chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=22847&eng=y
The ECF’s said that the 2nd coming would be proceeded by swarms of Conversions of Jews to Our Lord Jesus Christ, but not how long these would take.
There are other things they said would happen as well, one of which was a great apostasy as people left the faith. This was confirmed by this Orthodox Saint, who got all the other details right:
**Prophecy of Saint Nilos, A hermit and Myrr-streaming of Mt. Athos, Greece - Died Nov. 12, 1651 **
*After the year 1900, toward the middle of the 20th century, the people of that time will become unrecognizable. When the time for the advent of the antichrist approaches, people’s minds will grow cloudy from carnal passions, and dishonor and lawlessness will grow stronger. Then they will become unrecognizable. People’s appearance will change, and it will be impossible to distinguish men from women due to their shamelessness in dress and style of hair. These people will be cruel and will be like wild animals because of the temptation of the Anti-Christ. There will be no respect for parents and elders; Love will disappear.
Christian pastors, bishops and priests will become vain men, completely failing to distinguish the right hand way from the left. At that time the morals and traditions of Christians and of the Church will change. People will abandon modesty, and dissipation will reign. Falsehood and greed will obtain great proportions, and woe to those who pile up treasures. Lust and adultery, homosexuality, secret deeds, and murder will rule in society. At that future time, due to the power of such great crimes and licentiousness, people will be deprived of the grace of the Holy Spirit, which they receive in the Holy Baptism, and equally of remorse.
The churches of God will be deprived of God fearing and pious pastors, and woe to the Christians remaining in the world at that time; they will completely lose their faith because they will lack the opportunity of seeing the light of knowledge from anyone at all. Then they will separate themselves out of the world in holy refuges in search of lightening of their spiritual sufferings, but everywhere they will meet obstacles and constraints. And all this will result from the fact that the Antichrist wants to be lord over everything and become the ruler of the whole universe, and he will produce miracles and fantastic signs. He will also give depraved wisdom to an unhappy man so that he will discover a way by which one man can carry on a conversation with another from one end of the earth to the other.
At that time man will also fly through through the air like birds and descend to the bottom of the sea like fishes. And when they have achieved all this, these unhappy people will spend their lives in comfort without knowing, poor souls, that it is the deceit of the Anti-Christ, and the Ungodly one! - he will so complete science with vanity that it will go off the right path and lead people to lose faith in the existence of God in three hypostases.
Then the All-Good God will see the downfall of the human race and will shorten the days for the sake of those few who are being saved…Then the sword of chastisement will suddenly appear and kill the perverter and his servants.*
stmichaelacademy.org/nilos.html
Blessings and Peace to you, Michael
If the Early Church Fathers are right, this is a important:
**Messianic Parallels: The Lubavitcher Jews and the Neocatechumenals
by Sandro Magister **
*ROMA, February 16, 2005 - In an extensive interview in the first issue of “Oasis,” the new international magazine of the patriarchate of Venice, the Custodian of the Holy Land, Franciscan Fr. Pierbattista Pizzaballa, speaks of the “Israeli Jews who have encountered Christ and received baptism.”
In Israel, he says, these amount to “several hundred persons.” And he foresees that they will remain few in number: “Judaism does not allow for conversion. Of course, the state does not forbid making different choices. But there is a lack of understanding, and tension.” For this reason, Hebrew Christians maintain “a certain discretion” and “do not make an excessive show of their Christian identity; they do not provoke or constrain those around them to take too much notice of them.”
But these are the Jews who have entered the Catholic Church, and have a bishop exclusively for themselves. Because there are also others, more numerous, without a relationship with the Church. They simply believe that the Jesus of the New Testament is the Messiah who will return at the end of time. They are the “messianic Jews,” and Fr. Pizzaballa estimates that there are “thousands” of them. Both the first and the second kind come predominantly from religious Judaism, which is generally called “Orthodox.” *
chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=22847&eng=y
The ECF’s said that the 2nd coming would be proceeded by swarms of Conversions of Jews to Our Lord Jesus Christ, but not how long these would take.
There are other things they said would happen as well, one of which was a great apostasy as people left the faith. This was confirmed by this Orthodox Saint, who got all the other details right:
**Prophecy of Saint Nilos, A hermit and Myrr-streaming of Mt. Athos, Greece - Died Nov. 12, 1651 **
*After the year 1900, toward the middle of the 20th century, the people of that time will become unrecognizable. When the time for the advent of the antichrist approaches, people’s minds will grow cloudy from carnal passions, and dishonor and lawlessness will grow stronger. Then they will become unrecognizable. People’s appearance will change, and it will be impossible to distinguish men from women due to their shamelessness in dress and style of hair. These people will be cruel and will be like wild animals because of the temptation of the Anti-Christ. There will be no respect for parents and elders; Love will disappear.
Christian pastors, bishops and priests will become vain men, completely failing to distinguish the right hand way from the left. At that time the morals and traditions of Christians and of the Church will change. People will abandon modesty, and dissipation will reign. Falsehood and greed will obtain great proportions, and woe to those who pile up treasures. Lust and adultery, homosexuality, secret deeds, and murder will rule in society. At that future time, due to the power of such great crimes and licentiousness, people will be deprived of the grace of the Holy Spirit, which they receive in the Holy Baptism, and equally of remorse.
The churches of God will be deprived of God fearing and pious pastors, and woe to the Christians remaining in the world at that time; they will completely lose their faith because they will lack the opportunity of seeing the light of knowledge from anyone at all. Then they will separate themselves out of the world in holy refuges in search of lightening of their spiritual sufferings, but everywhere they will meet obstacles and constraints. And all this will result from the fact that the Antichrist wants to be lord over everything and become the ruler of the whole universe, and he will produce miracles and fantastic signs. He will also give depraved wisdom to an unhappy man so that he will discover a way by which one man can carry on a conversation with another from one end of the earth to the other.
At that time man will also fly through through the air like birds and descend to the bottom of the sea like fishes. And when they have achieved all this, these unhappy people will spend their lives in comfort without knowing, poor souls, that it is the deceit of the Anti-Christ, and the Ungodly one! - he will so complete science with vanity that it will go off the right path and lead people to lose faith in the existence of God in three hypostases.
Then the All-Good God will see the downfall of the human race and will shorten the days for the sake of those few who are being saved…Then the sword of chastisement will suddenly appear and kill the perverter and his servants.*
stmichaelacademy.org/nilos.html
Blessings and Peace to you, Michael
T
Traditional_Ang
Guest
Benadam:
Part of the problem is the problem is that most of the people posting see Jerusalem and environs as they are TODAY, or even in the 1940’s, NOT as they were when the Roman Legions deforested them starting in 66 AD during the 1st Judean War.
What most people now see in the Judean countryside that hasn’t been reforested by the Israeli Jews is really the combined result of the Roman Deforestation campaign (preventing attacks on their rear and building seige machines) and the Roman Field salting campaign…
Benadam:
The Bart Kochba rebellion (132-135 AD) started because the Roman Emperor Hadrian sacrificed a PIG on the Temple Mount to the god Zeus (or was it Apollo)! That was definitely an ABOMINATION!
Blessings and peace.
In Christ, Michael
Part of the problem is the problem is that most of the people posting see Jerusalem and environs as they are TODAY, or even in the 1940’s, NOT as they were when the Roman Legions deforested them starting in 66 AD during the 1st Judean War.
What most people now see in the Judean countryside that hasn’t been reforested by the Israeli Jews is really the combined result of the Roman Deforestation campaign (preventing attacks on their rear and building seige machines) and the Roman Field salting campaign…
…Most of the really fertile areas in Israel required modern technology to reverse what the Romans did nearly 1950 years ago (and again 1870 years ago). That was definitely DESOLATION!
The Bart Kochba rebellion (132-135 AD) started because the Roman Emperor Hadrian sacrificed a PIG on the Temple Mount to the god Zeus (or was it Apollo)! That was definitely an ABOMINATION!
Blessings and peace.
In Christ, Michael
O
Ozzie
Guest
If EVERTHING that was SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN AT THAT TIME HAPPENED, then on what day in what month in 70 A.D. did Jesus return in glory???. The text emphatically states:**“but immediately after the tribulation of those days…”**the Son of Man comes in glory. According to the text this was one of the things that was"supposed to happen." Now, please give me the even the month that event occurred.
I would ask this question even of those “theologians” who try to avoid the text as you do.
- Status