Myths and fairy tales ?

[StAnastasia]

I read these. So there is a theory how it *could *have happened, but again, there are no animals found with in-between hearts, and no one has observed a species’ heart changing. And they “know” it *must *have happened some way. Evolutionists could sing their own version of “We Walk By Faith, and Not By Sight”.

Why would you expect to see a heart changing? Evolution happens to species, not to individuals, and it happens over many generations. Biologists can observe and measure evolution within bacteria and things with very short reproductive cycles; they cannot see it with animals that have long reproductive cycles, although it can be measured over time, as with the Peppered Moth in England. millerandlevine.com/km/evol/Moths/moths.html

StAnastasia

 

[StAnastasia]

Hello, Why is it you keep bunching in Gravity which can be scientifically proven exists, it is an axiom, it is governed by laws, and is predictable, with Evolution which is guess work at best?

John, you still haven’t proven the theory of gravity for me! Do you have pictures of gravitons? Can you explain why my pen fell to the floor rather than up to the ceiling? I need to know!

 

[steve711]

Why would you expect to see a heart changing? Evolution happens to species, not to individuals, and it happens over many generations. Biologists can observe and measure evolution within bacteria and things with very short reproductive cycles; they cannot see it with animals that have long reproductive cycles, although it can be measured over time, as with the Peppered Moth in England. millerandlevine.com/km/evol/Moths/moths.html

StAnastasia

STAnastasia,

I read your comments and they stir me to even deeper thought processes, you must be a good professor of Theology. I would however add, that sometimes a genetic mutation in an individual of a species, can eventually change an entire species or begin a new species by helping it to adapt to an environmental change.

Go with Gods Grace!

 

[twinc]

John, I take it from your writing that you are not overly familiar with how science works, and that you draw most of your talking points from creationist propaganda. Your vocabulary and arguments and even turns of phrase are reminiscent of the literature of such organizations.

Have you ever gone to a university to speak with a biologist? If there is a Catholic university near where you live, I encourage you to visit the biology department and speak with the faculty. Ask them why they accept evolution. Ask them to show you the consilient evidence supporting the evolutionary view, drawn from cosmology and physics, from biochemistry and biology, from genetics and cladistics, from geology and neuroscience. Ask actual scientists why the evidence in support of evolution is overwhelming. Ask them why creationist anti-evolutionary sessions are not held at the conferences of professional organizations.

Interview priests at a Catholic university, especially scientists. Ask them why evolution does not conflict with their Catholic faith. I have numerous friends who are both priests and scientists; they say Mass in the morning and then go off to their labs and classrooms to teach evolutionary biology.

A book you might enjoy is Finding Darwin’s God, by Roman Catholic biologist Ken Miller, of Brown University.

StAnastasia

so what.s new - this is well known to Catholic creationists - not so long ago the Church woke up to find most of its priests and even bishops were Arian.this did not make the Church Arian - today the Chuirch is slowly starting to wake up to find some if not many of its priests and bishops Evolutionists inspite of the warnings of Pius X and XII - twinc

 

[StAnastasia]

so what.s new - this is well known to Catholic creationists - not so long ago the Church woke up to find most of its priests and even bishops were Arian.this did not make the Church Arian - today the Chuirch is slowly starting to wake up to find some if not many of its priests and bishops Evolutionists inspite of the warnings of Pius X and XII - twinc

Not so long ago? Do you mean in the fourth century?

Twinc, Pius X and Pius XII – both of blessed memory – were basing their theologicla reflections on the best scientific evidence of their day. Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI live in a different scientific world. Somehow I doubt that even you would insist on submitting to the dental techniques suffered patiently by Pope Pius X. Why do you willingly accept the latest in dental techniques, but stubbornly refuse to accept the latest in biology?

StAnastasia

 

[twinc]

STAnastasia,

I read your comments and they stir me to even deeper thought processes, you must be a good professor of Theology. I would however add, that sometimes a genetic mutation in an individual of a species, can eventually change an entire species or begin a new species by helping it to adapt to an environmental change.

Go with Gods Grace!

is information gained or lost and Evolution is generally understood as meaning somehow a radical change of one creature into another of higher type - survival of the fittest is nearly always survival of the luckiest like the peppered moths - twinc

 

[StAnastasia]

STAnastasia, I read your comments and they stir me to even deeper thought processes, you must be a good professor of Theology. I would however add, that sometimes a genetic mutation in an individual of a species, can eventually change an entire species or begin a new species by helping it to adapt to an environmental change.
Go with Gods Grace!

Thanks Steve711 – I appreciate your words. I teach theology, but I work with scientists across the disciplines in our interdisciplinary Catholic college. It’s a very fruitful and stimulating and mutually humbling collaboration.

I agree with you that a single genetic mutation can be transmitted to the next generation and help a species adapt. I find island biogeography fascinating – ucmp.berkeley.edu/fosrec/Filson.html. I recently saw a piece on the penguins of the Galapagos, and how their population can boom or crash depending on El Nino currents which deliver or do not deliver food in a given year.

You might be interested in how a friend of mine William Stoeger, S.J. deals with the problem of evolutionary suffering. He is a stellar astronomer at the Vatican Observatory, and has written some interesting things on God’s choosing an evolutionary framework. He regards suffering as constitutive to the order in which we live, and asks why God should have chosen that order. I’ll try to find the article reference for you.

StAnastasia

 

[StAnastasia]

is information gained or lost and Evolution is generally understood as meaning somehow a radical change of one creature into another of higher type - survival of the fittest is nearly always survival of the luckiest like the peppered moths - twinc

Twinc, no biologist that I know thinks “evolution” means “a radical change of one creature into another of higher type.” Can you refer us to a biologist who thinks this is what evolution means?

 

[twinc]

Not so long ago? Do you mean in the fourth century?

Twinc, Pius X and Pius XII – both of blessed memory – were basing their theologicla reflections on the best scientific evidence of their day. Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI live in a different scientific world. Somehow I doubt that even you would insist on submitting to the dental techniques suffered patiently by Pope Pius X. Why do you willingly accept the latest in dental techniques, but stubbornly refuse to accept the latest in biology?

StAnastasia

the answer is simpler and surer than you think or are aware it seems - like some or many or most things change and can be changed but some other things are a bit different - twinc

 

[StAnastasia]

the answer is simpler and surer than you think or are aware it seems - like some or many or most things change and can be changed but some other things are a bit different - twinc

Twinc, can you please reword this post? Your phrasing renders your meaning opaque to me.

 

[StAnastasia]

STAnastasia,I read your comments and they stir me to even deeper thought processes, you must be a good professor of Theology…Go with Gods Grace!

Steve, here is the reference:

William R. Stoeger, S.J., “Entropy, emergence, and the physical roots of natural evil,” in Physics and Cosmology: Scientific Perspectives on the Problem of Natural Evil (Vatican Observatory, CTNS, 2007), 93-108.

Stoeger argues that natural evil or suffering is intrinsic to a universe with the possibility of freedom, and therefore that the only theological way to deal with suffering is to consider it eschatologically. That is to say, suffering and death are structurally built into the universe. There would be no rocky life-bearing planets unless a previous generation of stars had blown up. There would be no next generation without the death of preceding generations. Quoting Stoeger: “Transience, dissolution and death are the entropic price demanded for the exploration of new possibilities, the generation of novelty and the support of highly organized systems in our evolving universe.” (p.95)

The only possibility for not having suffering and death is to have a universe devoid of life, which would be relatively uninteresting either scientifically or theologically. This does not mean suffering is good; it means that we deal with it through a theology of hope, hope in the resurrection and the new creation spoken about by Paul
.

StAnastasia

 

[twinc]

Steve, here is the reference:

William R. Stoeger, S.J., “Entropy, emergence, and the physical roots of natural evil,” in Physics and Cosmology: Scientific Perspectives on the Problem of Natural Evil (Vatican Observatory, CTNS, 2007), 93-108.

Stoeger argues that natural evil or suffering is intrinsic to a universe with the possibility of freedom, and therefore that the only theological way to deal with suffering is to consider it eschatologically. That is to say, suffering and death are structurally built into the universe. There would be no rocky life-bearing planets unless a previous generation of stars had blown up. There would be no next generation without the death of preceding generations. Quoting Stoeger: “Transience, dissolution and death are the entropic price demanded for the exploration of new possibilities, the generation of novelty and the support of highly organized systems in our evolving universe.” (p.95)

only possibility for not having suffering and death is to have a universe devoid of life, which would be relatively uninteresting either scientifically or theologically. This does not mean suffering is good; it means that we deal with it through a theology of hope, hope in the resurrection and the new creation spoken about by Paul
.

StAnastasia

as it was,is not now,so shall it be[Apoc/Rev.21:4] - twinc

 

[StAnastasia]

as it was,is not now,so shall it be[Apoc/Rev.21:4] - twinc

What are you saying?

 

[twinc]

What are you saying?

clearly not I but God viz no suffering,no tears,no death - twinc

 

[John_oxios]

In the Apocrypha.

**
Satan was the seducer and the paramour of Eve**

 

[John_oxios]

The point of the post is to show that the Satan and devils were not a doctrine from the beginning of the Bible.It evolved-the concept that God did everything -Good or bad is very much in evidence.Since God was creator of all things then He was responsible for all things. The idea of an force outside of God that could compel bad actions would have seemed odd to them- to have a force outside of YHWH that could cause such havoc would be to give that entity a somewhat godlike power…YHWH was all -in all-nothing outside His realm was to be feared or taken seriously.Just as the pagan deities were first seen as sub par to YHWH(as when YHWH challenges the gods of Egypt in Exodus)then according to the prophets these deities become “no-gods” just clay and metal- of no account and no power. This alters during the Christian era when pagan deities become tied to demons and devils by the ECF-thus giving them an import they do not deserve and power they do not own…That their are spirits and demons around-yes. But some out there sound as if God has lost His Predominance and that the devil has an equal or semi equal powers.NO and no.They speak of the world as something evil and deadly to the soul-it can be only if we let it but God made out of nothing , everything and He called it “good”. I don’t believe that fact has ever been rescinded.

Hello Julia.
Where is the reference for the above statements?
God does not create evil, evil is the consequence of not obeying God.
For every decision results in consequence… a good decision results in good.
consequence while a bad decision results in bad consequence.
God created and in his Creation brought forth an opposite for instance Night and day, God did not create evil, but evil is the opposite of good.

God does not know evil, and he didn’t create it.

God knows evil like the average person knows typhoid fever… we know its bad but we have never experienced it (Bishop Fulton Sheen)

as beings with free will we have the choice to obey or disobey God, He gives us the freedom to choose. Want to hear of Godlike power? Pride, pride wrecked Satan, Pride wrecks men.

Whatever man does will not effect God’s will, God’s plan…
Man was not thrown out of paradise as a punishment, man was thrown out of Eden, because if he then ate of the fruit of Eternal life, he would be eternally damned/ unsave-able. It wasn’t punishment it was mercy, every act of God was and is to save man from his own selfish ways.

We can choose who we want to rule in our lives whatever we feed becomes the stronger good or evil, we can’t blame God for the evil in the world, God is good all the time.

God bless,
John

 

[John_oxios]

Steve, here is the reference

The only possibility for not having suffering and death is to have a universe devoid of life, which would be relatively uninteresting either scientifically or theologically. This does not mean suffering is good; it means that we deal with it through a theology of hope, hope in the resurrection and the new creation spoken about by Paul StAnastasia

Hello,

The Jews put it this way, if you lived a life devoid of suffering; that is everything went perfect for you, that, that in itself was a sin! Why because nothing had happened in your life for you have had to turn to God.

God makes Good out of Chaos, God makes good out of evil, God perfects our faith in Him, by our sufferings. Remember guilt is of God, shame is of the Devil.

Christ suffered on the Cross for us, are we any better than our Master? No! Suffering is part of salvation.

God bless,
John

 

[John_oxios]

John, I take it from your writing that you are not overly familiar with how science works, and that you draw most of your talking points from creationist propaganda. Your vocabulary and arguments and even turns of phrase are reminiscent of the literature of such organizations.

Have you ever gone to a university to speak with a biologist? If there is a Catholic university near where you live, I encourage you to visit the biology department and speak with the faculty. Ask them why they accept evolution. Ask them to show you the consilient evidence supporting the evolutionary view, drawn from cosmology and physics, from biochemistry and biology, from genetics and cladistics, from geology and neuroscience. Ask actual scientists why the evidence in support of evolution is overwhelming. Ask them why creationist anti-evolutionary sessions are not held at the conferences of professional organizations.

Interview priests at a Catholic university, especially scientists. Ask them why evolution does not conflict with their Catholic faith. I have numerous friends who are both priests and scientists; they say Mass in the morning and then go off to their labs and classrooms to teach evolutionary biology.

A book you might enjoy is Finding Darwin’s God, by Roman Catholic biologist Ken Miller, of Brown University.

StAnastasia

Hello,

Please Show me Pope Benedict’s statement saying man is evolved from ape/ hominids?.
Show me the statement where the Catholic Church agrees with the evolution of man through a natural biological means.

** Your arguments** for, are from evolutionist propaganda, which I know you want me to accept their opinion with lack of any proof… Like I said, it takes more faith to believe in Evolution than in Creationism. I place my faith in the Church established by Jesus Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit, for the last two thousand yrs. Darwin? Herbert Spencer? I dunn-no, when the Holy Spirit tells me the story of Evolution’ IS’, I’ll believe it. Right now? You can’t make a believer of evolution out of me.

Fill the holes. fill the gaps with witness and evidence which all science is based on, then will come to reason. Until then we’ll just have to argue it out. Show me!!! Draw all the pics you want, but until they find the so-called missing links… man will never convince me.

Jesus Christ, " In the beginning He made them Male and Female"
There is no mixing of the kinds.

Your kinda of silent on the predictability of evolution? What is the next mutation to be? hmmm…
God bless,
John

Until then?

 

[StAnastasia]

Hello, Please Show me Pope Benedict’s statement saying man is evolved from ape/ hominids?

Here you go John:
**
COMMUNION AND STEWARDSHIP:**

Human Persons Created in the Image of God

**63. ** “According to the widely accepted scientific account, the universe erupted 15 billion years ago in an explosion called the “Big Bang” and has been expanding and cooling ever since. Later there gradually emerged the conditions necessary for the formation of atoms, still later the condensation of galaxies and stars, and about 10 billion years later the formation of planets. In our own solar system and on earth (formed about 4.5 billion years ago), the conditions have been favorable to the emergence of life. While there is little consensus among scientists about how the origin of this first microscopic life is to be explained, there is general agreement among them that the first organism dwelt on this planet about 3.5-4 billion years ago. Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution. While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage. However it is to be explained, the decisive factor in human origins was a continually increasing brain size, culminating in that of homo sapiens. With the development of the human brain, the nature and rate of evolution were permanently altered: with the introduction of the uniquely human factors of consciousness, intentionality, freedom and creativity, biological evolution was recast as social and cultural evolution.”

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20040723_communion-stewardship_en.html

 

[John_oxios]

Here you go John:
**
COMMUNION AND STEWARDSHIP:**
With the development of the human brain, the nature and rate of evolution were permanently altered: with the introduction of the uniquely human factors of consciousness, intentionality, freedom and creativity, biological evolution was recast as social and cultural evolution."

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20040723_communion-stewardship_en.html

Not for nothin this has John Paul II hand on it.

Next Paragraph 64: Mainly concerned with evolution as it “involves the question of man,” however, Pope John Paul’s message is specifically critical of materialistic theories of human origins and** insists on the relevance of philosophy and theology for an adequate understanding of the “ontological leap” to the human which cannot be explained in purely scientific terms**.

Hello,
How does a soul develop, via biological evolution?

You kind of left this out: Paragraph:

    10. Secondly, the creation accounts in Genesis make it clear that man is not created as an isolated individual: “**God created mankind in his image, in the image of God he created them, male and female he created them”** (Gen. 1:27)

HUMAN PERSONS CREATED IN THE IMAGE OF GOD

1. As the witness of Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium makes clear, the truth that human beings are created in the image of God is at the heart of Christian revelation. This truth was recognized and its broad implications expounded by the Fathers of the Church and by the great scholastic theologians. Although, as we shall note below, this truth was challenged by some influential modern thinkers, today biblical scholars and theologians join with the Magisterium in reclaiming and reaffirming the doctrine of the imago Dei.

The Church’s interest in evolution thus focuses particularly on “the conception of man” who, as created in the image of God, “cannot be subordinated as a pure means or instrument either to the species or to society.” As a person created in the image of God, he is capable of forming relationships of communion with other persons and with the triune God, as well as of exercising sovereignty and stewardship in the created universe. The implication of these remarks is that theories of evolution and of the origin of the universe possess particular theological interest when they touch on the doctrines of the creation ex nihilo and the creation of man in the image of God.

The real point of accepting evolution: (Paragraph 19)
It was but a short step from these ideas to the reversal of biblical anthropology which took various forms in the thought of Ludwig Feuerbach, Karl Marx and Sigmund Freud: it is not man who is made in the image of God, but God who is nothing else than an image projected by man. In the end, atheism appeared to be required if man was to be self-constituting.