Myths and fairy tales ?

[SugarMagnolia]

I think maybe the problem is with secular society’s understanding of myth. In the modern sense, “myth” simply means “not factual”, and therefore, not valuable or necessary. That’s the legacy of the Enlightenment at its worst.

But the ancient understanding was different–myth was true, in a very real sense, because it told us something true about the world/us/life/God. That’s why there are two different accounts of creation in Genesis. One emphasizes the truth that life comes from God and is good, and the other explains and institutes the sacramental nature of marriage and families. Secular society would say that because the ‘facts’ of each contradict each other, they’re just ‘myths’ that we can toss out or ignore. But the Catholic understanding is that these stories were given for a reason–the Church has collected and handed them down as Sacred Scripture because they show us truths about God and us that we need to know. Historical veracity seems almost beside the point.

I’m a Catholic and I’m studying the sciences. I don’t believe the earth was formed in a literal seven days (I’m with the Catechism and St. Augustine), but that doesn’t mean I believe the Genesis story is just a silly little fairy tale. There’s more to it.

Good post, Moscoti!

For me, not only does Genesis not need to be literally true, but I see demands put on it to be literal truth as not only doing violence to the text, it also obscures the spiritual truths in it that are, IMO, the whole point to begin with.

 

[StAnastasia]

I’m a Catholic and I’m studying the sciences. I don’t believe the earth was formed in a literal seven days (I’m with the Catechism and St. Augustine), but that doesn’t mean I believe the Genesis story is just a silly little fairy tale. There’s more to it.

A lot more to it, Moscati!

 

[twinc]

I don’t have any problem with the deviation and neither does the Church or the many eminent scripture scholars I have studied. We must ask why you have a persistent urge to deviate from the obvious,reasonable and saner interpretation accepted by non-literalists. I think you would strongly benefit from reading a couple of books used in many Catholic adult education scripture courses: "Biblical Fundamentalism, What Every Catholic Should Know", by Ronald Witherup S.S. and “And God Said What?” by Margaret Ralph.

Dei Verbum specifically states that one must consider the literary form and context of the story as an aid to understanding. The story of the couple in the garden is clearly a symbolic myth.

as

 

[twinc]

I don’t have any problem with the deviation and neither does the Church or the many eminent scripture scholars I have studied. We must ask why you have a persistent urge to deviate from the obvious,reasonable and saner interpretation accepted by non-literalists. I think you would strongly benefit from reading a couple of books used in many Catholic adult education scripture courses: "Biblical Fundamentalism, What Every Catholic Should Know", by Ronald Witherup S.S. and “And God Said What?” by Margaret Ralph.

Dei Verbum specifically states that one must consider the literary form and context of the story as an aid to understanding. The story of the couple in the garden is clearly a symbolic myth.

A symbolic myth indeed ,even to Jesus Christ who died and failed trying to undo what a myth didnt do - this is not Christianity,in any way,shape or form - count me out - twinc

 

[twinc]

There is actually quite a bit of excellent Catholic scholarship out there on this very subject, written by theologians and biblical scholars…you could certainly avail yourself of this information if you have genuine interest.

I realize that this comment was not meant for me, but I thought I’d chime in, in the hopes that you, twinc, might gains some insight into a viewpoint other than your own. For me, the contradictions (I realize that you do not see or acknowledge them as such) in the Genesis story interfered with my faith. To me the literal understanding seems unreasonable. Understanding them in a way other than the literal is part of what allows me to have faith. And I don’t see that as a bad thing.

And, I should mention that Judaism (the tradition from which I hail) does see two creation stories. This belief comes from knowledgeable people who can read Genesis in the original Hebrew.

Certainly there are plenty of faithful who believe in Genesis literally. But there are also plenty who believe in it figuratively as well. Why the ad hominens to label the latter as believing in something (to paraphrase your quote above) that is less obvious, unreasonable or insane?

it seems you cannot even quote me aright,as I said saner not insane - it makes no difference who sees two instead of one when there is only one for there cannot be two different creation accounts not stories by the way - twinc

 

[juliamajor]

Juliamajor, is that like waitresses who address the table in the second person? “Are we ready to order yet?”

If Twinc isn’t a convert, I wonder where his exegetical literalism comes from. I’m a product of Catholic schools and a Catholic university, and have taught theology and philosophy since 1985. I never encountered literal interpretation of the Bible by Catholics before visiting Catholic Answers. It’s curious!

StAnastasia

I was a teenager when Vatican II came to be.I went to Catholic schools for twelve years in NYC and never in all that time was I told to take Genesis literally.Not once. I was so stunned when I started reading literalist posts.I thought they had to be Protestants! I was always proud as a child to know that in my church the intellect went hand in hand with Faith.Now I see the ugly hand of anti-intellectualism of our evangelical and Fundamentalist brethren about me. Thinking and rethinking and studying scripture and theology and trying to attempt to understand the concepts and dogmas of our church , is somehow seen as “disloyal”,“heresy”, “modernism” .When all that is really happening is an attempt to understand and make relevant to us ,that which has happened and gone before us.The Jewish people have been studying and restudying scripture for thousands of years.And the sages have come to see a myriad of interpretations of scripture.That Rashi interprets scripture differently from Ramban or Maimonides does not make others heretics.There is more then one understanding to scripture. Either /or is Protestant.Both/and Catholic. What is see now among some is reductionism.To reduce scripture to one viewpoint, one meaning, instead of letting it breath and live and inspire each generationIf You reduce scripture ,you reduce God, you put Him on a level with us with our petty ,narrow outlooks-you take away His glory and His omnipotence and make Him like the"no-gods" the prophets railed against.

 

[SugarMagnolia]

I was a teenager when Vatican II came to be.I went to Catholic schools for twelve years in NYC and never in all that time was I told to take Genesis literally.Not once. I was so stunned when I started reading literalist posts.I thought they had to be Protestants! I was always proud as a child to know that in my church the intellect went hand in hand with Faith.Now I see the ugly hand of anti-intellectualism of our evangelical and Fundamentalist brethren about me. Thinking and rethinking and studying scripture and theology and trying to attempt to understand the concepts and dogmas of our church , is somehow seen as “disloyal”,“heresy”, “modernism” .When all that is really happening is an attempt to understand and make relevant to us ,that which has happened and gone before us.The Jewish people have been studying and restudying scripture for thousands of years.And the sages have come to see a myriad of interpretations of scripture.That Rashi interprets scripture differently from Ramban or Maimonides does not make others heretics.There is more then one understanding to scripture. Either /or is Protestant.Both/and Catholic. What is see now among some is reductionism.To reduce scripture to one viewpoint, one meaning, instead of letting it breath and live and inspire each generationIf You reduce scripture ,you reduce God, you put Him on a level with us with our petty ,narrow outlooks-you take away His glory and His omnipotence and make Him like the"no-gods" the prophets railed against.

I too have been surprised and disheartened to see biblical literalism among Catholics. I see the influence of protestant fundamentalism in this dangerous trend.

 

[Moscati]

the only conclusion is you have been reading the wrong books or conclusions as it seems is also the case with your priest, I also used to do this once,earlier on,but not anymore - earlier in life my priest told me "now dont be bothering your head,“just say an Our Father,a Hail Mary and a Glory Be and everything will be alright” - maybe I should have taken his advice instead of bothering anyone here,perhaps some may wish I had - jimc

How can reading the Bible possibly be reading the wrong book? It’s not hard to find Genesis.
Are you suggesting I somehow got stuck in Nehemiah somewhere instead? And mistook it for the creation story? Come now, give me and my priest (who is far more intelligent than I am) a little credit.

 

[StAnastasia]

I too have been surprised and disheartened to see biblical literalism among Catholics. I see the influence of protestant fundamentalism in this dangerous trend.

It is a rather new trend. I may look into researching and writing an article on “The rise of literal biblical interpretation among recent converts to Roman Catholicism.”

 

[twinc]

My attempts to kill two birds with one stone truly finds it answer here for on another forum my topic “Catholics and the Bible” brought a closing of ranks and a stiff upper lip response - the Bible and study and grasp of Scriptures is regarded as a Protestant preoccupied fundamentalist pastime.The Church does of course declare and claim that the Bible is hers and urges the study of scriptures - watch for my coming post on this forum “Catholics and the Bible” and a refuttal and rebuttal to the nonsense that is being displayed in the name of Catholic and Catholicism and also know the damage that has been and is being done that a recent recent/survey showed that 97% of Catholic school leavers are still walking away from the Church every year.So what is the cause another survey/research reveals and what is the cure suggested - twinc

 

[twinc]

My attempts to kill two birds with one stone truly finds it answer here for on another forum my topic “Catholics and the Bible” brought a closing of ranks and a stiff upper lip response - the Bible and study and grasp of Scriptures is regarded as a Protestant preoccupied fundamentalist pastime.The Church does of course declare and claim that the Bible is hers and urges the study of scriptures - watch for my coming post on this forum “Catholics and the Bible” and a refuttal and rebuttal to the nonsense that is being displayed in the name of Catholic and Catholicism and also know the damage that has been and is being done that a recent research/survey showed that 97% of Catholic school leavers are still walking away from the Church every year.So what is the cause another survey/research reveals and what is the cure suggested - twinc

 

[StAnastasia]

the Bible and study and grasp of Scriptures is regarded as a Protestant preoccupied fundamentalist pastime.c

Come on, Twinc, don’t deliberately misrepresent me. Catholics do not regard study of the bible as a “fundamentalist pastime.” In fact, it’s fundamentalists who regards scholarly study of the bible as a thing to be avoided at all costs.

StAnastasia

 

[crazzeto]

My attempts to kill two birds with one stone truly finds it answer here for on another forum my topic “Catholics and the Bible” brought a closing of ranks and a stiff upper lip response - the Bible and study and grasp of Scriptures is regarded as a Protestant preoccupied fundamentalist pastime.The Church does of course declare and claim that the Bible is hers and urges the study of scriptures - watch for my coming post on this forum “Catholics and the Bible” and a refuttal and rebuttal to the nonsense that is being displayed in the name of Catholic and Catholicism and also know the damage that has been and is being done that a recent recent/survey showed that 97% of Catholic school leavers are still walking away from the Church every year.So what is the cause another survey/research reveals and what is the cure suggested - twinc

The Church does everything it can to encourage scripture study, right down to attaching a plenarary indulgence to reading the bible for just 1/2 an hour. I would agree that there is a need to take a new approch to Catechisis, one which emphisies scripture study more heavily (and I can tell you first hand, we’re certainly doing this in my CCD class).

It seems the baby boomers are stuck with a patently false (and it always has been) that the Church wants you to just accept it’s rules and teachings, and for you to avoid reading the bible at all costs as well as digging into the why’s of the teaching. This isn’t the case, though for some time the Church did (for good reason) want you do this in the presense of a spiritual director.

These days we’re lacking in the area of available spiritual directors, so there seems to be a new movement coming out of the Protestant Convert sector to put together guided bible studies with study books, DVD’s and solid references to 3rd party material (CCC among others). Right now I’m doing a study of the Apocolypse of John, written by Dr. Hahn for the Catholic Scripture Study program. It’s terrific! Now all we need are more apologists out there recatechising and rebuilding enthusiasm for the faith among the older (and younger) generation.

 

[John_oxios]

secular scientists and secular state school teachers and schools would, it seems,accept and teach that Adam and Eve,Noah,Global flood etc are myths and fairy tales.Should,or would or could Catholic, scientists,teachers or schools also accept and teach this - any comments - jimc

Hey twin.
Don’t be skeptical, or a doubting twin?

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end."

As far as Adam and Eve go, Jesus said,

Mat 19:4 And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created {them} from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,

“It’s not what I don’t understand in the Bible that bothers me, it what I understand that bothers me” (Mark Twain).

Concentrate on living the Gospel, instead of listening to those who would tear it up.

God Bless,
John

 

[PJM]

=crazzeto;6226619]No Catholic should regard this as mere myth or fairy tale… Regardless of what they do for a living.

***No,all practicing Catholics are to hold the CC Teacings, and traditions, and in a special way those found in the Bible, as being Divinely Inspired and must befirmly held.

It is signifiant that everything in the Bible is TRUE, however not everything in the Bible is necessarly factual. Adam and Eve for example could have been named “Oooog and Uuuug” but actual names do not change the moral truth. At some point we had First Parents who were like the Universe, were CREATED out of nothing by the Divine Will.***

 

[twinc]

Come on, Twinc, don’t deliberately misrepresent me. Catholics do not regard study of the bible as a “fundamentalist pastime.” In fact, it’s fundamentalists who regards scholarly study of the bible as a thing to be avoided at all costs.

StAnastasia

surely you mean higher criticism and not scholarly study which fundamentalists are supposedly good at - twinc

 

[Moscati]

I have yet to meet a fundamentalist who was remotely scholarly, unless memorizing chapters of the Bible by heart and spitting it back out to prove one’s holiness counts as scholarship. Not that I’ve met them all, but . . .

Anti-intellectualism is a hallmark of fundamentalism. The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind (especially Ch. 5) by Mark Noll, an evangelical prof. from Wheaton, is a great book for understanding the history and nature of fundamentalists.

 

[John_oxios]

God in the OT changes his mind and that is a contradiction.In Jonah God changes his mind toward Nineveh.In Exodus and other Torah books God is going to destroy the Israelites-but Moses talks him out of it!
A human stops God from acting!?

Hello Julia,
God didn’t change His mind @ Nineveh, they repented of their sin, began a spiritual fast, then in His Divine Providence and compassion gave them mercy.

Jon 3:5 Then the people of Nineveh believed in God; and they called a fast and put on sackcloth from the greatest to the least of them.

Jon 4:11 “Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know {the difference} between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?”

Remember the Whole Earth is the Lords’ ( Ex 19:5).

Jesus affirms Nineveh’s repentance: Luk 11:32 "The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here. [See also Matt 12:41]

Moses doesn’t change God’s mind; but God awakens and brings out the leadership quality Moses always possessed, but now, doubted in himself.

Moses a prince of Egypt @ age forty has to leave, he is humbled after forty years in the desert,
and then when he is called upon, questions his ability:
Exd 3:11 But Moses said to God, “Who am I, that I should go to Pharaoh, and that I should bring the sons of Israel out of Egypt?”

Exd 4:10 Then Moses said to the LORD, “Please, Lord, I have never been eloquent, neither recently nor in time past, nor since You have spoken to Your servant; for I am slow of speech and slow of tongue.”

In Ex 18:15, Moses’ Father in-law questions Moses about the hours he puts in judging disputes;
Moses replies: Exd 18:15 Moses said to his father-in-law, "Because the people come to me to inquire of God.

Jethro counsels Moses:
Exd 18:19 "Now listen to me: I will give you counsel, and God be with you. You be the people’s representative before God, and you bring the disputes to God,

Moses is finally getting it!

as far as Exd 32:14 So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

God wants us to question him, and remind Him of His covenant with us, Job does it, Moses does it, Jonah does it, Daniel does it, matter of fact most if not all of the prophets except Christ, who simply asks God the Father "to take this cup from Him’ because they knew the trouble they were getting into quetioning the kings and leaders of the world.
Even Isaiah in God wants to hear from us:

Isa 1:18 “Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the LORD, "Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool.
Isa 1:19 "If you consent and obey, You will eat the best of the land;

God doesn’t change His mind, we change ours once we decide to turn to Him, first we have to drop our pride, and then he works within us, takes our hearts of stone and gives us a heart of flesh, all the resistance is in us, He resist us not

Rom 13:2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.

" He has offers you no resistance" James 5:6 (NASB)

God bless,
John

 

[John_oxios]

Come on, Twinc, don’t deliberately misrepresent me. Catholics do not regard study of the bible as a “fundamentalist pastime.” In fact, it’s fundamentalists who regards scholarly study of the bible as a thing to be avoided at all costs.

StAnastasia

I concur,
Fundamentalists believe in the literal word only, and that’s the one that suit them.
They don’t read or believe the early Church Fathers, nor allegory.

I’ve heard one of those T.V. evangelists state, “if you read the early Church Fathers, and believe in allegory, you can’t help but become Catholic.”

Makes sense to me… its how i found my way back!!

God bless,
John

 

[Mea_Culpa]

Juliamajor, is that like waitresses who address the table in the second person? “Are we ready to order yet?”

“We” is not the second person - it is the first person plural. Second person is “you” (second person plural is “you all” if you’re from the South). I went to public school myself.

If Twinc isn’t a convert, I wonder where his exegetical literalism comes from. I’m a product of Catholic schools and a Catholic university, and have taught theology and philosophy since 1985. I never encountered literal interpretation of the Bible by Catholics before visiting Catholic Answers. It’s curious!

StAnastasia