Myths and fairy tales ?

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***No,all practicing Catholics are to hold the CC Teacings, and traditions, and in a special way those found in the Bible, as being Divinely Inspired and must befirmly held.

It is signifiant that everything in the Bible is TRUE, however not everything in the Bible is necessarly factual. Adam and Eve for example could have been named “Oooog and Uuuug” but actual names do not change the moral truth. At some point we had First Parents who were like the Universe, were CREATED out of nothing by the Divine Will.***
Hello PJM,
Everything the Catholic Church does is Scriptural, even the Pope, need an O.T. precedent?

Num 27:15 Moses said to the LORD,

16 "Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, appoint a man over the congregation,
17 who shall go out before them and come in before them, who shall lead them out and bring them in; that the congregation of the LORD may not be as sheep which have no shepherd."

18 And the LORD said to Moses, "Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay your hand upon him;

19 cause him to stand before Elea’zar the priest and all the congregation, and you shall commission him in their sight.

20 You shall invest him with some of your authority, that all the congregation of the people of Israel may obey.

21 And he shall stand before Elea’zar the priest, who shall inquire for him by the judgment of the Urim before the LORD; at his word they shall go out, and at his word they shall come in, both he and all the people of Israel with him, the whole congregation."

22 And Moses did as the LORD commanded him; he took Joshua and caused him to stand before Elea’zar the priest and the whole congregation,

23 and **he laid his hands upon him, and commissioned him **as the LORD directed through Moses.

Who’s Jesus, God spoken Word, what does He do, He does the very same with Peter, He commisions him with the same authority, and when P the Apostles do what they do, they follow Scripture, “Let another take his position of overseer”
(Acts 1:20).

Since the Pope is Scriptural, all their other arguments are water under the Bridge! Well that’s the way I look at it.
God bless,
John :highprayer:
 
I’m a Catholic and I’m studying the sciences. I don’t believe the earth was formed in a literal seven days (I’m with the Catechism and St. Augustine), but that doesn’t mean I believe the Genesis story is just a silly little fairy tale. There’s more to it.
Just for you information, if you check the Hebrew text, the term for day does not corespond to a 24 hour day, but rather to an age, an epoch. It has a much wider scope. If it did correspond to a 24 hour day we’d be in a bit of a contradiction as the sun only appears on the 2nd or 3rd day, I believe 😛
 
Originally Posted by Seagirt
Creationists are fundamentalist Christians who believe that the evidence is wrong, and that the Universe was created according to a literal interpretation of Genesis’ 7 day creation account. The Liberal Interpretation is normally that the story is a metaphor designed to explain that God is all powerful. The secular belief is that the Genesis account is purely a result of myth and prescientific attempts to understand the Universe. The secular belief is the most sensible one, and, luckily for Christianity, modern Christians are generally accepting of the idea that Genesis is scientifically flawed and written by Human beings, not dictated by God.
The reply:
are you saying this as a Catholic - either you or I are confused and not God,shall we at least agree on that - twinc
My response:

Seagrit, I’m a slow learner, Can you be more specific?How is it “flawed?”
 
=John oxios;6244289]Hello PJM,
Everything the Catholic Church does is Scriptural, even the Pope, need an O.T. precedent?
Num 27:15 Moses said to the LORD,
16 "Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, appoint a man over the congregation,
17 who shall go out before them and come in before them, who shall lead them out and bring them in; that the congregation of the LORD may not be as sheep which have no shepherd."
18 And the LORD said to Moses, "Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay your hand upon him;
19 cause him to stand before Elea’zar the priest and all the congregation, and you shall commission him in their sight.
20 You shall invest him with some of your authority, that all the congregation of the people of Israel may obey.
21 And he shall stand before Elea’zar the priest, who shall inquire for him by the judgment of the Urim before the LORD; at his word they shall go out, and at his word they shall come in, both he and all the people of Israel with him, the whole congregation."
22 And Moses did as the LORD commanded him; he took Joshua and caused him to stand before Elea’zar the priest and the whole congregation,
23 and **he laid his hands upon him, and commissioned him **as the LORD directed through Moses.
Who’s Jesus, God spoken Word, what does He do, He does the very same with Peter, He commisions him with the same authority, and when P the Apostles do what they do, they follow Scripture, “Let another take his position of overseer”
(Acts 1:20).
Since the Pope is Scriptural, all their other arguments are water under the Bridge! Well that’s the way I look at it.
God bless,
John :highprayer:
Thank you John.

A beautiful response.
 
Just for you information, if you check the Hebrew text, the term for day does not corespond to a 24 hour day, but rather to an age, an epoch. It has a much wider scope. If it did correspond to a 24 hour day we’d be in a bit of a contradiction as the sun only appears on the 2nd or 3rd day, I believe 😛
this is a red herring and a FAQ - when yom[day] is preceded or followed by a numeral and followed by evening and morning it can only mean a day.A day or 24hrs is one rotation of the earth on its axis and Jesus was and is and will be the light of the world before the sun was and after it will be no more -see Apoc[Rev]21:23 & 22:5 - twinc
 
secular scientists and secular state school teachers and schools would, it seems,accept and teach that Adam and Eve,Noah,Global flood etc are myths and fairy tales.Should,or would or could Catholic, scientists,teachers or schools also accept and teach this - any comments - twinc
so here is the original question again which has not been answered by most who have gone off at tangents and all sorts of side issues - anymore direct answers please - twinc
 
secular scientists and secular state school teachers and schools would, it seems,accept and teach that Adam and Eve,Noah,Global flood etc are myths and fairy tales.Should,or would or could Catholic, scientists,teachers or schools also accept and teach this - any comments - jimc
This is a poorly framed question, because it implies that myths are false, which they are not. There are profound theological truths to the cosmogonic stories we find in Genesis, even if they are not regarded as literally true historical accounts.

StAnastasia
 
This is a poorly framed question, because it implies that myths are false, which they are not. There are profound theological truths to the cosmogonic stories we find in Genesis, even if they are not regarded as literally true historical accounts.

StAnastasia
so I take it,you take it,they are not to be regarded as literally true historical accounts and this is what you would accept and teach - twinc
 
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PJM:
My response:

Seagrit, I’m a slow learner, Can you be more specific?How is it “flawed?”

ACtually, That post was a mistake. It wasn’t supposed to read like that. The passage is from a secularist , giving their point of view. I sent it before I completed the thought.

I think Genesis in mytho-poetic, but tells us the truth of creation and salvation history, in understandable terms. I wonder how many books have been written on Genesis ?

How old the earth is actually a difficult question; also how long humans ( real humans) walked the earth is also in question. Do you think we will ever know?? Somewhere between 10,000 years and 3 million seems right for the age of humankind .!
 
=twinc;6247227]so here is the original question again which has not been answered by most who have gone off at tangents and all sorts of side issues - anymore direct answers please - twinc
My answer is the same.

NO!

Let the Secular Humanist play in there own selfmade sandbox, while we try to dig ourselves out of the one we seem to have made for ourselves.:o
 
ACtually, That post was a mistake. It wasn’t supposed to read like that. The passage is from a secularist , giving their point of view. I sent it before I completed the thought.

I think Genesis in mytho-poetic, but tells us the truth of creation and salvation history, in understandable terms. I wonder how many books have been written on Genesis ?

How old the earth is actually a difficult question; also how long humans ( real humans) walked the earth is also in question. Do you think we will ever know?? Somewhere between 10,000 years and 3 million seems right for the age of humankind .!
actually Dinosaurs lived at the same time and not so long ago either - because death did not enter the world until Adam sinned - so Dinosaurs did not live millions or billions of years ago nor did they live for millions or billions of years before they all died as soon as Adam sinned and so became extinct.Only in Catholic bibles at Wisdom will you find that death was not intended by God for death and God are opposites for God is creator and life.Do you know[Iread]that medical science does not know why death occurs for it seems we were designed to live forever - twinc
 
actually Dinosaurs lived at the same time and not so long ago either - because death did not enter the world until Adam sinned - so Dinosaurs did not live millions or billions of years ago nor did they live for millions or billions of years before they all died as soon as Adam sinned and so became extinct.Only in Catholic bibles at Wisdom will you find that death was not intended by God for death and God are opposites for God is creator and life.Do you know[Iread]that medical science does not know why death occurs for it seems we were designed to live forever - twinc
But, again, was it physical death that entered into the world? It could have just been spiritual, after all, Catholics don’t get to live forever, rather they die, and then are with God. Physically, we still die. So, it is possible that evolution could have occured and dinosaurs came and went. Know this, when it says, “he will surely die,” what the passage is meaning, what it is in the original Hebrew is, “die the death,” a separation, a spiritual death.
 
secular scientists and secular state school teachers and schools would, it seems,accept and teach that Adam and Eve,Noah,Global flood etc are myths and fairy tales.Should,or would or could Catholic, scientists,teachers or schools also accept and teach this - any comments - anymore direct answers please - twinc
If it was my history or mythology class… I think all sides should be presented. It’s not my place to tell students that a myth, or religious story, did NOT take place. “Class, some denominations and individuals believe in a literal Creation story, some view it as symbolic”. I want them to be critical thinkers, so I want to challenge them, and give them BOTH (actually, that’s too dualistic), MANY points of view, and have consider all.

Coupling the words “myths” with “fairy tales” in this context is a bit misleading and condescending, so I wouldn’t use it in my class. “Fairy tales” makes me think of Cinderella and Disney, and that doesn’t have a place when talking about an Egyptian worldview or Greek myth.
 
If it was my history or mythology class… I think all sides should be presented. It’s not my place to tell students that a myth, or religious story, did NOT take place. “Class, some denominations and individuals believe in a literal Creation story, some view it as symbolic”. I want them to be critical thinkers, so I want to challenge them, and give them BOTH (actually, that’s too dualistic), MANY points of view, and have consider all.

Coupling the words “myths” with “fairy tales” in this context is a bit misleading and condescending, so I wouldn’t use it in my class. “Fairy tales” makes me think of Cinderella and Disney, and that doesn’t have a place when talking about an Egyptian worldview or Greek myth.
so lets put it as simply as possible - should anyone as a Catholic scientist or teacher accept or teach that Adam and Eve and Noah were not actual historical entities and there never ever was a global flood - it is strange how some have no problem with this question and others seem to have all sorts of problems for reasons unknown - twinc
 
But, again, was it physical death that entered into the world? It could have just been spiritual, after all, Catholics don’t get to live forever, rather they die, and then are with God. Physically, we still die. So, it is possible that evolution could have occured and dinosaurs came and went. Know this, when it says, “he will surely die,” what the passage is meaning, what it is in the original Hebrew is, “die the death,” a separation, a spiritual death.
so why did Adam die at the age of 930 when he was created immortal in the image and likeness of God.With all the millions of skulls and skeletons of dead animals that had died in the survival when nature was red in tooth and claw and horribly deformed and diseased,God without batting an eyelid,so to speak,says to Adam “look at the very good world I have created”.Wisdom in Catholic bibles says God did not create death or the tendency to die.The word in Hebrew means dying you will die. - btw Adam named all the animals,so if Dinosaurs were in the queue they existed the same time as man,if they were not in the queue they came after humans - bones and dinosaur tissue have been found that should not have been found after millions and billions of years - twinc
 
Moscati - I adore you. 🙂

Look, guys - if the Genesis story of Creation were 100% accurate, the world would be roughly 6000 years old. There are histories - actual histories - that go back further than that.

Take India. For the longest time, India’s accounts of her own history were discounted by Western historians, in part because they did not mesh with the Bible’s Creation story. Then they started finding ruins. In particular, they found one town, complete with harbor, in the middle of the desert. It was built on the banks of a river - a river that hadn’t gone through that part of the world in more than 6000 years!

That’s not even touching things like carbon dating.

Point is, there is evidence - pretty darn solid evidence - that the world, and humanity, is a lot older than Genesis gives it credit for. Putting your fingers in your ears and going “La la la, I don’t believe you” doesn’t change that.

Now, there’s two options. On the one hand, you can accept that your God occasionally speaks in metaphors, myths, and allegories. It’s not actually that big of a leap - His Son taught via parables, after all. (Where do you think He learned it? Maybe from His old man?) And, when dealing with primitive tribes like the forefathers of the forefathers of the Jews, who would have been the ones to originally receive these stories, what’s going to go over better? A detailed account of the chemical processes involved in the Big Bang, followed by an exhausting explanation of genetics and evolution? Or a much-simplified story that still covers the basics (first the universe, then the earth, then plants, then animals, then humans) and also includes a couple moral and theological lessons? Be honest here. You’re talking to shepherds who wouldn’t know a chromosome if it bit them. It’s absolutely not far-fetched to think that God, in His mercy, would tell them a story they could actually understand, trusting that their g’g’g’g’g’great-grandkids would eventually figure out how to fill in the missing details themselves.

And then, take into account the fact that much of the Old Testament was passed down via oral tradition before it ever got written down - because a lot of it pre-dates literacy! Study any storytelling culture, and you’ll learn - storytellers streamline. They simplify. And they occasionally fudge details in the interest of making a better story. Given all of that, it would be reasonable to conclude that Genesis is, quite simply, a good story - one that contains a good deal of truth, but not a whole lot of* fact*.

Alternately, you can believe that Genesis is word-for-word precisely, literally true. Which would mean not only believing that storytellers for centuries passed the account down without changing a single fact (itself a not-so-minor miracle), but also that your God intentionally planted false evidence (like carbon dating and the ruins in India) just to mess with our minds. Now… I don’t know about you… but that kind of seems like a mean thing to do. I’m not convinced I’d want to worship a God who would do something like that. He would seem a bit of a prat.

So the question is… do you worship a God who engages in adolescent pranks… or one who understands humanity’s limitations, gives us all the knowledge we can currently process, and gradually reveals more to us as we grow?

It’s academic to me; I’m not a Christian. But for those of you who are, I think how you decide reveals a lot about who you are and how you view your relationship with God - and who you believe God to be, come to that.

(p.s. - “myth” is not a dirty word, but for the record, neither is “fairy tale.” As one who’s made a study of such things, the noble fairy tale certainly does not deserve to be stuck in the Disney ghetto. Just sayin’.)
 
Moscati - I adore you. 🙂

Look, guys - if the Genesis story of Creation were 100% accurate, the world would be roughly 6000 years old. There are histories - actual histories - that go back further than that.

Take India. For the longest time, India’s accounts of her own history were discounted by Western historians, in part because they did not mesh with the Bible’s Creation story. Then they started finding ruins. In particular, they found one town, complete with harbor, in the middle of the desert. It was built on the banks of a river - a river that hadn’t gone through that part of the world in more than 6000 years!

That’s not even touching things like carbon dating.

Point is, there is evidence - pretty darn solid evidence - that the world, and humanity, is a lot older than Genesis gives it credit for. Putting your fingers in your ears and going “La la la, I don’t believe you” doesn’t change that.

Now, there’s two options. On the one hand, you can accept that your God occasionally speaks in metaphors, myths, and allegories. It’s not actually that big of a leap - His Son taught via parables, after all. (Where do you think He learned it? Maybe from His old man?) And, when dealing with primitive tribes like the forefathers of the forefathers of the Jews, who would have been the ones to originally receive these stories, what’s going to go over better? A detailed account of the chemical processes involved in the Big Bang, followed by an exhausting explanation of genetics and evolution? Or a much-simplified story that still covers the basics (first the universe, then the earth, then plants, then animals, then humans) and also includes a couple moral and theological lessons? Be honest here. You’re talking to shepherds who wouldn’t know a chromosome if it bit them. It’s absolutely not far-fetched to think that God, in His mercy, would tell them a story they could actually understand, trusting that their g’g’g’g’g’great-grandkids would eventually figure out how to fill in the missing details themselves.

And then, take into account the fact that much of the Old Testament was passed down via oral tradition before it ever got written down - because a lot of it pre-dates literacy! Study any storytelling culture, and you’ll learn - storytellers streamline. They simplify. And they occasionally fudge details in the interest of making a better story. Given all of that, it would be reasonable to conclude that Genesis is, quite simply, a good story - one that contains a good deal of truth, but not a whole lot of* fact*.

Alternately, you can believe that Genesis is word-for-word precisely, literally true. Which would mean not only believing that storytellers for centuries passed the account down without changing a single fact (itself a not-so-minor miracle), but also that your God intentionally planted false evidence (like carbon dating and the ruins in India) just to mess with our minds. Now… I don’t know about you… but that kind of seems like a mean thing to do. I’m not convinced I’d want to worship a God who would do something like that. He would seem a bit of a prat.

So the question is… do you worship a God who engages in adolescent pranks… or one who understands humanity’s limitations, gives us all the knowledge we can currently process, and gradually reveals more to us as we grow?

It’s academic to me; I’m not a Christian. But for those of you who are, I think how you decide reveals a lot about who you are and how you view your relationship with God - and who you believe God to be, come to that.

(p.s. - “myth” is not a dirty word, but for the record, neither is “fairy tale.” As one who’s made a study of such things, the noble fairy tale certainly does not deserve to be stuck in the Disney ghetto. Just sayin’.)
many words but what you have said is that it is not nor can be God that is a prat or confused but man the teller of stories - the Indian Indus river settlement of Mohenjo Daro is under 6000years ago and appx 2500 to 1500B.C. - btw it seems carbon dating is not absolutely reliable,according to some reported tests etc but God does not fake or fudge so take your pick - twinc
 
Twinc, I’m not trying to be rude, but please look into some punctuation. I shouldn’t have to read what you write three times to be able to understand what you’re saying.

“Many words” aside, I’m more than willing to say that it is Man, not God, who is confused. However, the Bible is passed down by Man. Even if God inspired its authors, that inspiration was still filtered through human minds and written by a pen held in human hands. It was still a human mind that had to make sense of what it was being told. So yeah - regardless of where the confusion lies, it still makes sense to treat Genesis as an instructive and inspirational myth rather than literal, historical fact.
 
so why did Adam die at the age of 930 when he was created immortal in the image and likeness of God.With all the millions of skulls and skeletons of dead animals that had died in the survival when nature was red in tooth and claw and horribly deformed and diseased,God without batting an eyelid,so to speak,says to Adam “look at the very good world I have created”.Wisdom in Catholic bibles says God did not create death or the tendency to die.The word in Hebrew means dying you will die. - btw Adam named all the animals,so if Dinosaurs were in the queue they existed the same time as man,if they were not in the queue they came after humans - bones and dinosaur tissue have been found that should not have been found after millions and billions of years - the spiritual soul can never die so only the body was going to die - see Gen.3:22 - twinc
 
I had NO CLUE that there were some Catholics who were actually Young Earth Creationists. NO CLUE!!

If the world was 6000 years old… then I guess the oil that came from dinosaurs and coal that came from plants was a process that happened overnight, right? Some people…
 
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