N.O. experience

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One doesn’t need to be Catholic to see the difference between the two forms or to have a preference for one over the other.

One doesn’t have to be schooled in Catholicism to recognize reference when one sees it.
 
ConstantinePX said:
Most Catholics prefer the NO. Its simpler and gets them out of Church quicker. Theres no extensive use of any ‘extras’ because people view it as unnecessary.

That is why I avoid NO masses. I only go to NOs that have more involved liturgy. Otherwise I feel the same way.

That the Mass is just a burden and no reason to go the extra mile in worship.

Sickening, but not my place to pass judgement. Its peoples personal preference.

EDIT: Not to say all Catholics who do NO are less participant. But you can very very defiantly tell the difference.

And its not really their fault. You create a half assed atmosphere, and people respond to their surroundings. Not the laitys fault in the least in this regard.
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You seem to have a very poor opinion of a lot of Catholics who attend, by choice, the OF Mass.

I don’t think your opinion is justified. I’m sure there are Catholics who attend certain Masses to “get out of jail quick,” but I know many hundreds of Catholics who take great delight in the OF Mass and willingly arrive early to pray and stay late to pray, and then stay even later to enjoy fellowship with fellow parishioners. Do you not know any good Catholics involved with OF Masses?

And I disagree that you can very definitely tell the difference. I insist that none of us can know what is in the hearts of others just by looking at them.
 
YoungTradCath said:
People need to stop being so critical of what the OP says.

Stop getting your panties in a knot, and be a little more receptive of what the OP, a non-Catholic, mind you, says. The OP obviously has little experience with Catholicism, and doesn’t know how easy some Catholics get **butt-hurt **over the methodology of phrasing we tend to use. T
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I know you’re young, but seriously, some language should not be used on a Catholic forum.
 
Cat. I dont know if you read that before I added the EDIT in. In the EDIT at the bottom I did reconcile that not all Novus attendants are blanketed by what I said. Of course, there are those who are just as happy and participant as a Tridentine one.

And I do believe my opinion is justified, from my personal experiences in the parishes I have attended. That doesnt mean it is the same in all parishes around the world. Just the ones I personally have been to.
 
The beautiful thing, to me anyway, about the Catholic Church is that there is not a “one size fits all” mentality. There are different rites (22 in addition to the Roman Rite, I believe) and then you have the different schools of spirituality- the Franciscans, the Domincans, etc.

If you prefer the EF, fine. I hope that all you who want it have access to it. But please to not try to say that one is better than, or more reverent than the other. These are personal opinions, and not the opinion of the Holy See, which has said there are the same Mass, but in different expressions.

The Chuch is large, and there are many spiritualities & charisms, even within the Roman Rite, so why do so many people want to put God into a little box and say if it is not done this way, all the time, it’s bad? 🤷
 
@FabiusMaximus:

I really get what you mean. I truly love the Tridentine Mass, with all the incense, candles, chanting, and the receiving of Communion on the tongue. It is how the Mass was originally celebrated before the Novus Ordo was instated. While the Novus Ordo is a more modern alternative to the Sacrifice of the Mass, I feel that the Tridentine has more reverence, beauty and majesty. I had been a parishoner at the Novus Ordo Mass for many years before my family had to move away. Then my mother suggested that we try the Tridentine Mass, (since she grew up on it) and we all fell in love with it. Now, I am also struck by the contrast between the two Masses, and I honestly say that I prefer the Tridentine Mass. Note that this is not intended to offend those who like the Novus Ordo better; it is just how I honestly feel about the matter.

Note also that both of these Masses, the Tridentine and the Novus Ordo are valid, i.e. neither of them are “better” or “higher up” than the other. They both are the same sacrifice of the Mass, celebrated in different ways. I hope I answered any questions you had, Fabius.
 
With all this hating, I think we might have even turned the OP away from Catholicism if he/she was thinking about it…
 
OP - Your experience sounds like the average OF Mass. Personally, EF Mass has my heart.
 
I have edited and deleted five posts that contain colorful or vulgar language, including in other languages.

Such language is a serious violation of CAF rules and posters will be suspended, no questions asked.

It is unthinkable, that such language should be used in a discussion about Holy Mass on a Catholic site. :mad:

This is not a negotiable point.
 
Bluegoat said:
For individuals stuck attending it who find it less than up-lifting, I’d remember that worship is being offered to God, no matter whether it is moving our own hearts. Try to find other ways to fill the gaps you find personally, like praying the offices, or listening to recorded music.
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This post made me realise just how ridiculous things have gotten in our Church. Mass is a mystical rite and yet some people seem Hell-bent on making it as banal as possible.

Like beautiful vestments, incense, Latin, chant and everyone facing front are just impediments to be got rid of, or something.
 
InquisitorMax said:
This post made me realise just how ridiculous things have gotten in our Church. Mass is a mystical rite and yet some people seem Hell-bent on making it as banal as possible.

Like beautiful vestments, incense, Latin, chant and everyone facing front are just impediments to be got rid of, or something.
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Yes, much like the thread that was created to bait people in and attempt to make them feel guilty for fighting for those things they love instead of just giving to what is the new modern cultural norm.
 
Cat said:
It seems to me that someone who has “lapsed” in their practice of church attendance should do more research before making any statements about how a Mass should be done.

Also, all of us, but especially someone who is lapsed, should consider paying less attention to the reverence (or perceived irreverence) of others and more attention to the state of their own heart. Frankly, I find it amazing that a human being, especially someone who is not practicing Catholicism and hasn’t attended the church in question, can judge the hearts of others. I don’t believe it.
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I forgive you for not reading my opening message thoroughly. May I ask: how far into the thread did you actually read? Clearly not very far. Mine was an observation, I didn’t pretend to give a lesson on how a Mass should be done. If you read my posts, you would know that I’m not even Catholic, never was. I’m from a Pentecostal denomination.

Additionally, I didn’t make a comment upon whether the people were reverencing “enough” or not. I said the whole thing*** seemed less reverent***. I’ve made absolutely no judgment upon what people felt.
Also, to those who have “lapsed”–while you were gone doing your own thing, your “family” that stuck around grew and changed. If you had been there, you would have been able to experience all those changes, too, and live through them and in some cases, suffer through them. But you were gone by your own choice. So why do you think you can waltz back in and bemoan the fact that the “family” doesn’t do things the way they did back in the past when you used to be part of the family? You can be nostalgic, yes. That’s OK and understandable. But to be “broken-hearted” because the Church moved on while you were gone by your own choice–that’s not OK.
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My “Church family” is not the same as yours. My parents abandoned Catholicism and converted to Pentecostalism long before I was even born (before they were even married). There is nothing that I knew that “changed” since I was born. And given that I was born in 1990, the Vatican II reforms were more than well established by that point, anyway.
BTW, your “papa” (the pope) has approved of all the changes in your “family” that you are “broken-hearted” about–it’s OK to not use incense in a Mass. Contemporary music played on a piano is OK, too. It’s OK for women to read and lead the singing. It’s OK, with the approval of a bishop, for Communion to be received in the hand.
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Given that I’m from a Pentecostal upbringing, I’m pretty sure that I’ve never had a problem with contemporary music. Additionally, it was the Catholic approval of the charismatic movement that partially got me interested in Catholicism.

One more thing: I’d like to add that if you’ve read any of my posts on the Non-Catholic Religions subforum, you would see that I’ve always treated Catholicism with respect and dignity, and have even defended it.

Best regards.
However, I am somewhat surprised to see so many who are advocating that we pay attention to and give serious consideration to the opinions of Protestants.
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Usually when there are music threads, the idea that certain music is less intimidating to Protestants is utterly discounted, and the general consensus from conversative Catholics is that the Mass should never seek to please Protestants and that their opinions don’t really matter.
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In fact, the fact that there were Protestants present at Vatican II is looked upon with great suspicion by some Catholics, who believe that these Protestants perverted the Mass and caused it to become “more Protestant.”
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As a Protestant, I would say that a Catholic council like Vatican I/II should never even have Protestant (name removed by moderator)ut. I wouldn’t expect any Catholic delegates at a council of the Assemblies of God. That’s simply ridiculous.
When you said that there did not seem to be much reverence at the consecration, I understood you to mean that the people witnessing it had no reverence, or had less than what you observe at a TLM (since that is what you are comparing the experience against). If that was not what you intended to convey, then I misunderstood what you wrote.
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My apologies for the opaque wording. It was not my intent to criticize the intent of the parishoners. What I will say is that I’ve always enjoyed the bowing and kneeling present in a Tridentine Mass before receiving. There is no such appreciation at the Evangelical services I’ve always attended. Holy Communion is without the “Holy.” Even if it is considered symbolic, I think there should be reverence to such a sacred tradition.
 
What I would say to the OP is this: There are probably really good reasons the CC looked to introduce a vernacular Mass. It came at a very unfortunate moment in time historically with regard to what was going on in the world of liturgical scholarship, and even the state of language (at least in English). There seems to be real recognition that the OF has problems in theory and in execution, but all Catholic theologians agree it is a valid Mass. In practice, some are done better than others, and it is what most laity is now used to, which is really important in liturgy - so any changes to fix the problems will come slowly. I suspect they will come though, and there may even be a plan for this.
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I personally have no problem with the use of vernacular. I personally think vernacular and Latin can coexist. After all, Greek was used in the liturgy before Latin replaced it. But I do have a soft spot for Ecclesiastical Latin (not classical). However, I do ask why wasn’t the Tridentine Mass simply translated into English instead of the use of the new one? This is an honest question. It just never made sense. Couldn’t it be an acceptable compromise?
I really get what you mean. I truly love the Tridentine Mass, with all the incense, candles, chanting, and the receiving of Communion on the tongue. It is how the Mass was originally celebrated before the Novus Ordo was instated. While the Novus Ordo is a more modern alternative to the Sacrifice of the Mass, I feel that the Tridentine has more reverence, beauty and majesty. I had been a parishoner at the Novus Ordo Mass for many years before my family had to move away. Then my mother suggested that we try the Tridentine Mass, (since she grew up on it) and we all fell in love with it. Now, I am also struck by the contrast between the two Masses, and I honestly say that I prefer the Tridentine Mass. Note that this is not intended to offend those who like the Novus Ordo better; it is just how I honestly feel about the matter.
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Note also that both of these Masses, the Tridentine and the Novus Ordo are valid, i.e. neither of them are “better” or “higher up” than the other. They both are the same sacrifice of the Mass, celebrated in different ways. I hope I answered any questions you had, Fabius.
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Yes it did, thank you. My folks grew up on the Latin Mass before they converted to Pentecostalism, too. They don’t particular like it though strangely I’ve noticed my father being more attention to papal pronouncements and occasionally watching snippets of the Mass when they show it on the Italian channel. It’s quite surprising.
With all this hating, I think we might have even turned the OP away from Catholicism if he/she was thinking about it…
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Haha my investigation won’t be thwarted by a bunch of forum comments. Though I do appreciate your comments very much.
 
FabiusMaximus said:
After all, Greek was used in the liturgy before Latin replaced it.
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But even so, the Latin Mass has retained some Greek and even Hebrew, all three languages of the cross, incidentally. Most of the modern Masses have NONE, ZIPPO of the Greek or Latin, classical or ecclesiastical.
 
ProVobis said:
But even so, the Latin Mass has retained some Greek and even Hebrew, all three languages of the cross, incidentally. Most of the modern Masses have NONE, ZIPPO of the Greek or Latin, classical or ecclesiastical.
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I know the Kyrie is Greek. And obviously most of the mass is in Latin. But where does the Hebrew manifest?
 
FabiusMaximus said:
My friend is Catholic, and occasionally she has invited me to attend Mass with her. It’s always been the Tridentine Mass, and I’ve loved each time.

Today we both work in the afternoon, so we cannot attend it. So I figured I would search for one just to check it out somewhere else. Couldn’t find one. So I thought I would try and attend a Novus Ordo Mass. So I picked one that was near to my house, at another church.

Well first, there was some contemporary-sounding music playing on the piano It was OK I suppose, but it was weird entering and hearing that.

Then when the Mass started, it was totally different from the Latin Mass. It seemed truncated, it was half spoken, partially sung. There were two podiums. On one a woman was leading some of the singing, on the other, a woman was reading from scripture. I’ve never seen this before. Usually the priest always did everything at the Latin Mass, sung the whole service, and gave communion on the tongue. Everyone in this church had it put in their hands. When the priest consecrated it, there didn’t seem to be much reverence for what was going on. Perhaps I’m just a fool.

And there was no incense. That broke my heart. The priest spoke vaguely about Vatican II and Christ’s message, I couldn’t hear him very well. He said something about a Catholic Church he couldn’t recognize. I have no idea what he really meant, I only heard snippets.

Did I walk into a particularly different church or is this how N.O. Masses generally are?
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Thats been my experience of N.O. masses in general, that said though I did go to the conventual mass at pluscarden abbey in scotland and that was something else! Incense, latin, the works! It was the closest I’ve ever seen the N.O. get to the tridentine, though I could still tell the difference. But in general yes, that is what you will get in almost all churches.

As regards incense I would point out that even most Tridentine masses don’t use incense its only missa cantate’s (sung mass) and high masses that do, Low masses which generally make up the bulk of masses celebrated don’t use incense.
 
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