N.T Wright and John Piper Disagreement?

[Izdaari]

Um, exactly what part of a pastor’s job requires certain reproductive organs?

 

[Edward_H]

Um, exactly what part of a pastor’s job requires certain reproductive organs?

Apparently Jesus knew enough about the makeup of men and women (body, mind, soul) to make a decision about gender and vocation in Church life. The Church trusts that Jesus sees more deeply into the question than even our “advanced” state of mankind does today.

Imagine that. After all we know. : >

 

[nhylan]

Apparently Jesus knew enough about the makeup of men and women (body, mind, soul) to make a decision about gender and vocation in Church life. The Church trusts that Jesus sees more deeply into the question than even our “advanced” state of mankind does today.

Imagine that. After all we know. : >

That’s not entirely accurate. The Roman Catholic Church trusts that reticence on a topic is license for prohibition.

 

[Edward_H]

That’s not entirely accurate. The Roman Catholic Church trusts that reticence on a topic is license for prohibition.

Not true. The Holy Father John Paul II spoke definitively (meaning with finality) on this subject, concluding the Church didn’t have the authority.

This is an act of humility which really stupefies the enlightened world changers.

Humility. Ouch.

 

[Izdaari]

Not true. The Holy Father John Paul II spoke definitively (meaning with finality) on this subject, concluding the Church didn’t have the authority.

This is an act of humility which really stupefies the enlightened world changers.

Humility. Ouch.

That works for Catholics, but for those of us who are not Catholic, well, as much as we may admire JPII as a man of great accomplishments and saintly character, we can’t just take his word as the final authority. If we thought the Pope had that power, we would all be Catholics.

 

[Edward_H]

That works for Catholics, but for those of us who are not Catholic, well, as much as we may admire JPII as a man of great accomplishments and saintly character, we can’t just take his word as the final authority. If we thought the Pope had that power, we would all be Catholics.

That’s right. I understand.

And remember that particular point was not just the Pope’s word or decision. In fact, he’s reflecting on the Church’s entire tradition over 2,000 years. So he’s essentially taking the back seat on this point, and thus, an act of humility. The past has its own authority. That’s the beauty and simplicity of it, and it escapes most people.

Whose word will you take as final authority, and based on what authority do you take their word?

 

[Izdaari]

That’s right. I understand.

And remember that particular point was not just the Pope’s word or decision. In fact, he’s reflecting on the Church’s entire tradition over 2,000 years. So he’s essentially taking the back seat on this point, and thus, an act of humility. The past has its own authority. That’s the beauty and simplicity of it, and it escapes most people.

Whose word will you take as final authority, and based on what authority do you take their word?

In my view, there is no such authority on earth. I use the Wesleyan Quadrilateral:

• Scripture
• Tradition
• Reason
• Experience

Of those Scripture is paramount, but tradition carries some weight too. And it all has to make sense, so reason is important. Experience includes what wisdom we may have gained over the years, as well as any divine revelations or miracles we may have been granted. Those things that pass all four tests are what I’m most sure of. And those those things that Scripture is absolutely clear on, after allowing for context (both textual and cultural), interpretation and translation.

 

[Edward_H]

In my view, there is no such authority on earth. I use the Wesleyan Quadrilateral:

• Scripture
• Tradition
• Reason
• Experience

Of those Scripture is paramount, but tradition carries some weight too. And it all has to make sense, so reason is important. Experience includes what wisdom we may have gained over the years, as well as any divine revelations or miracles we may have been granted. Those things that pass all four tests are what I’m most sure of. And those those things that Scripture is absolutely clear on, after allowing for context (both textual and cultural), interpretation and translation.

And what authority do you rely upon for a closed canon of Scripture? Who ‘stapled’ the Bible, as it were? On what authority was it closed? Put yourself back “in the day” How were writings distinguished between sacred, and good but not sacred? How was this determined? Councils? Yes. Who called the Councils? Etc.

In this sense of ‘closing the Canon’ then Scripture was a product of the Church, operating, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, no?

 

[Izdaari]

And what authority do you rely upon for a closed canon of Scripture? Who ‘stapled’ the Bible, as it were? On what authority was it closed? Put yourself back “in the day” How were writings distinguished between sacred, and good but not sacred? How was this determined? Councils? Yes. Who called the Councils? Etc.

In this sense of ‘closing the Canon’ then Scripture was a product of the Church, operating, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, no?

Sure. I don’t have a problem with that. But I think when you and I say Church, we mean different things. I get the impression you’re referring to the Catholic Church, and I’m referring to the Bride of Christ. To you. they may be the same. To me, they’re not, though they overlap.

Yes, it was the Catholic Church that called those Councils. But that’s because the Orthodox hadn’t yet split off and the Reformation hadn’t happened yet, and I think those branches are just as legit as the Catholic branch. If we had to call a Council like that today, it would necessarily involve all three if it were to accepted by all three.