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Debora123
Guest
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Hubby sees it differently than you, but I appreciate your humble perspective.
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Debora123
Guest
Hi Teresa.
You are correct, I already had my own opinion about this before I started this thread. That is no secret, and I’ve admitted to that from the very beginning.
Now, you saying that I have not considered anything that anyone else has said is just plain false. I’ve gotten a lot of feed back and a lot of opinions from different people. Some I agree with, others I do not.
I think the general consensus is what Bucket said: No, it is not immoral in and of itself, but you still have to be careful. Because if it is done at the wrong time with the wrong kind of man, it can lead to sin.
I think that’s how most people here feel about it, and I agree with that and have stated my agreement on various occasions.
Thanks. Bender told me how he feels about it and how he would feel if his wife did it. I appreciate him sharing his thoughts.
Don’t I? I feel like I’ve posted my motives, not once, but multiple times throughout this whole thread because people keep asking me. I’m not sure why I’ve come across as unwilling to talk about my motives, but that really hasn’t been the case.
And yes, I was a little surprised at the number of people who were asking things like “why not just send him only clothed ones?” …Because to me, there’s obviously a big difference between the 2.
You too, thank you!
C
CatholicFireman
Guest
Excellent! Good luck to him (especially in survival school
). Wife and I are AF vets (she wound up eventually retiring from the ANG). Me thinks you’ll both like it (headaches and all).Prayers for you holding up on the “homefront”.
J
johnnyjones
Guest
Very accurate assessment. This is just one phase of military life in a series of many. A man is a man.
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thewanderer
Guest
Ok, so I’ve been thinking about this thread for a while and I have a couple of thoughts I’d like to throw out there for people to think about.
First, I have been just as confused by clem’s posts as you, Deb, but I think I might have figured it out. Clem did explicitly say that he agrees looking at a naked picture of ones spouse is not inherently immoral, so I think that in the rest of his posts he is just ignoring that distinction (even though he accepts it) because he thinks it will weaken his argument against sending such a picture if he acknowledges this distinction while making his argument against said pictures. I could be wrong about that, but hopefully if I am clem will step in and correct me.
Next, I was thinking about all the reasons brought up in this thread why a person would send a naked picture to their spouse, and they all seemed rather light-hearted (well, the morally acceptable reasons at least
) and it got me thinking about another possible reason, which might seem like more of a legitimate reason to those who believe naked pictures should never be shared, even between spouses. Well, I guess it would be more correct to say the questions asking why a naked picture rather than a clothed pictures are really what got me thinking about all this. Well, in order to answer that question why not look at what role nakedness plays within the marital relationship (we are talking about married couples after all 
). Within marriage, nakedness has a special, I would claim even sacred, position. Rrevealing oneself and standing naked and vulnerable before ones spouse is one of the very unique and special ways that couples show their openness to each other and their willingness to give themselves completely and entirely, heart, body, mind, and soul, to their spouse. So why send a naked picture instead of a clothed one? To show that despite the distance one is still opening themselves up to their spouse, becoming vulnerable before them, and is still willing to give their entire selves, every aspect of their very being, to their spouse. It would be a special reminder that despite the distance they still belong entirely to their spouse and are still commited to giving themselves completely in this special and sacred way.
Another thing I was thinking about was Debora’s claim that those who disagreed with her had a negative view of sexuality. I’m not entirely convinced of this. I think to a large extent it is more a matter of living out their marital relationship in a different way, one that sees no reason or point to sending such a picture to their spouse unless it were for lustful purposes and who would view receiving such an image kind of like mtbender described in his post. So long as their disapproval of sending a naked picture does not stem from a negative view of nakedness within the context of a marital relationship but rather from some other perception about pictures and what their effect is/what they mean/what they imply for that person etc then there is no reason to think that they have a negative view of sexuality. If, however, anyone disapproved of such a picture because of a negative view of nakedness within the context of a marital relationship then they would indeed have a negative view of sexuality and one which contradicts the teachings of our dear JPII.
Here is a passage from TOB that were brought up earlier in the thread which confirms this
First, I have been just as confused by clem’s posts as you, Deb, but I think I might have figured it out. Clem did explicitly say that he agrees looking at a naked picture of ones spouse is not inherently immoral, so I think that in the rest of his posts he is just ignoring that distinction (even though he accepts it) because he thinks it will weaken his argument against sending such a picture if he acknowledges this distinction while making his argument against said pictures. I could be wrong about that, but hopefully if I am clem will step in and correct me.
Next, I was thinking about all the reasons brought up in this thread why a person would send a naked picture to their spouse, and they all seemed rather light-hearted (well, the morally acceptable reasons at least
) and it got me thinking about another possible reason, which might seem like more of a legitimate reason to those who believe naked pictures should never be shared, even between spouses. Well, I guess it would be more correct to say the questions asking why a naked picture rather than a clothed pictures are really what got me thinking about all this. Well, in order to answer that question why not look at what role nakedness plays within the marital relationship (we are talking about married couples after all ). Within marriage, nakedness has a special, I would claim even sacred, position. Rrevealing oneself and standing naked and vulnerable before ones spouse is one of the very unique and special ways that couples show their openness to each other and their willingness to give themselves completely and entirely, heart, body, mind, and soul, to their spouse. So why send a naked picture instead of a clothed one? To show that despite the distance one is still opening themselves up to their spouse, becoming vulnerable before them, and is still willing to give their entire selves, every aspect of their very being, to their spouse. It would be a special reminder that despite the distance they still belong entirely to their spouse and are still commited to giving themselves completely in this special and sacred way.Another thing I was thinking about was Debora’s claim that those who disagreed with her had a negative view of sexuality. I’m not entirely convinced of this. I think to a large extent it is more a matter of living out their marital relationship in a different way, one that sees no reason or point to sending such a picture to their spouse unless it were for lustful purposes and who would view receiving such an image kind of like mtbender described in his post. So long as their disapproval of sending a naked picture does not stem from a negative view of nakedness within the context of a marital relationship but rather from some other perception about pictures and what their effect is/what they mean/what they imply for that person etc then there is no reason to think that they have a negative view of sexuality. If, however, anyone disapproved of such a picture because of a negative view of nakedness within the context of a marital relationship then they would indeed have a negative view of sexuality and one which contradicts the teachings of our dear JPII.
Here is a passage from TOB that were brought up earlier in the thread which confirms this
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Debora123
Guest
Wanderer, I agree with everything you said here. Thanks for posting this.Ok, so I’ve been thinking about this thread for a while and I have a couple of thoughts I’d like to throw out there for people to think about.
First, I have been just as confused by clem’s posts as you, Deb, but I think I might have figured it out. Clem did explicitly say that he agrees looking at a naked picture of ones spouse is not inherently immoral, so I think that in the rest of his posts he is just ignoring that distinction (even though he accepts it) because he thinks it will weaken his argument against sending such a picture if he acknowledges this distinction while making his argument against said pictures. I could be wrong about that, but hopefully if I am clem will step in and correct me.
Next, I was thinking about all the reasons brought up in this thread why a person would send a naked picture to their spouse, and they all seemed rather light-hearted (well, the morally acceptable reasons at least
Another thing I was thinking about was Debora’s claim that those who disagreed with her had a negative view of sexuality. I’m not entirely convinced of this. I think to a large extent it is more a matter of living out their marital relationship in a different way, one that sees no reason or point to sending such a picture to their spouse unless it were for lustful purposes and who would view receiving such an image kind of like mtbender described in his post. So long as their disapproval of sending a naked picture does not stem from a negative view of nakedness within the context of a marital relationship but rather from some other perception about pictures and what their effect is/what they mean/what they imply for that person etc then there is no reason to think that they have a negative view of sexuality. If, however, anyone disapproved of such a picture because of a negative view of nakedness within the context of a marital relationship then they would indeed have a negative view of sexuality and one which contradicts the teachings of our dear JPII.
Here is a passage from TOB that were brought up earlier in the thread which confirms this
I especially loved the bolded part. You are absolutely right, and I could never have put it into words as eloquently and accurately as you did.
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Debora123
Guest
Lol, if I was a man I would take great offense to this statement because I know what you’re alluding to.
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Greg_N
Guest
Theology is the systematic study of religious truth. When I refer to ‘Theology of the Body or ‘Natural Law’ I allude to the discipline/theories in general.TOB says no such thing.
Pet peeve: When personal opinions become proclaimed as infallible truths. Not much else to say about that.
Pet peeve: When people falsely accuse based on false/unschooled assumption.
Wrong conclusion, here’s why:
You then pull the rug out from under your feet when you quote JPII’s TOB:
Let’s repeat that last part again:
This is understood as the nuptial system, in which the giving of one party meets the appropriate and adequate response of the other party to the gift. This response decides the reciprocity of the gift.
A naked image on a digital device does not enable an “adequate response of the other party to the gift”.
(If it did, then it would theoretically be possible to have a marriage without any physical contact whatsoever; which is absurd).
It’s also interesting to think what may happen if somehow the recipient of one of these images receives it at an inappropriate time, say in Church, During prayer or if the device is in the possession of an unintended user (say if it was stolen, hacked etc.). Either of these scenarios could place the recipient in a state of sin, (that of which the photographer was the catalyst).
Others in this thread have stressed this point:
The nuptial meaning of the body is the primordial sacrament, which efficaciously transmits the invisible mystery of God’s Truth and Love, when you remove nakedness from its physical and natural/nuptial context it can only be misused or objectified (as has been somewhat demonstrated in the aforementioned examples).oneofmany;10347732:
Something like that happened to me…except it was a picture of myself.
I’ve been losing weight every since…
Reducing the importance of nakedness; "To be fun, romantic, and give him a reason to want to hurry home”, is hardly sufficient in the context of the nuptial system and sacredness of marriage.
If nakedness has any importance whatsoever within your relationship (as it should), you would heed what I and others have said in response to this.
I must say I have been somewhat frustrated (as have many others) with your responses in this thread.
Anyway, I will def pray for you Deb. You seem like a good chick just a tad naïve.
Peace.
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Greg_N
Guest
See post above^.
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Debora123
Guest
Thanks for the prayers, but disagreeing with your views doesn’t make me a naive person.
And for others, this opinion given right here is actually what I don’t agree with… the notion that such photos shared between spouses actually are automatically sinful and impure, in and of themselves.
But this doesn’t seem to be the general consensus anyway.
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Greg_N
Guest
If you could show me where I’m wrong I’ll agree with you,Thanks for the prayers, but disagreeing with your views doesn’t make me a naive person.
until then, no way. Lol.
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Debora123
Guest
There isn’t even anything to debate. You’re claiming it’s sinful for spouses to share nude photos of each other, and basing it on your personal interpretation of a sentence from TOB. The majority of the people here don’t even think such actions are automatically sinful. In fact, you might be close to being one of the only people who takes such stance.If you could show me where I’m wrong I’ll agree with you,
Furthermore, you’re not even claiming that it’s your own opinion, but instead taking a sort of authoritative right. You can continue to think I’m a naive person if you want, and I’ll continue to think your opinion is way off. And that is perfectly fine. Thanks for the participation.
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thewanderer
Guest
It is entirely your opinion that a photograph does not enable an adequate response of the other party to this gift. On this point we are just going to have to agree to disagree but I am hardly shooting myself in the foot by quoting JPII here, you just happen to hold the premise that it is impossible for one to look at a naked picture of their spouse without objectifying their spouse and so you think that JPII’s quote is incopatible with what I have said. In reality it is your premise about photography that is incompatible with my stated opinion, of which fact I am already more than aware. Here, I believe, we are just going to have to agree to disagree.
Yes, this is the question of prudence which must be taken into account. This is something that everyone on this thread has already agreed to, that there are many practical and prudential matters to consider with respect to this kind of thing, and they are both many and weighty, and should not be brushed aside lightly. So far noone on this thread has disagreed with that.
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Debora123
Guest
It is entirely your opinion that a photograph does not enable an adequate response of the other party to this gift. On this point we are just going to have to agree to disagree but I am hardly shooting myself in the foot by quoting JPII here, you just happen to hold the premise that it is impossible for one to look at a naked picture of their spouse without objectifying their spouse and so you think that JPII’s quote is incopatible with what I have said. In reality it is your premise about photography that is incompatible with my stated opinion, of which fact I am already more than aware. Here, I believe, we are just going to have to agree to disagree.
Yes, this is the question of prudence which must be taken into account. This is something that everyone on this thread has already agreed to, that there are many practical and prudential matters to consider with respect to this kind of thing, and they are both many and weighty, and should not be brushed aside lightly. So far noone on this thread has disagreed with that.
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Greg_N
Guest
Irrelevant, my argument is not based on a sentence, (although I did use a quote from JPII that is beside the point).
What follows by that logic? That truth is determined by popular vote.
My “opinion is way off”. Way off what? The truth?
We are both arguing opinions on the surface, but beneath this discourse is something much deeper, and that is the objective truth to the matter; whether or not what you are doing is right or wrong. Hint: It’s wrong
So far I have offered theoretical examples and referenced Catholic Theology of the body to reinforce my side of the argument. At no point have you logically refuted anything I have said, instead you’ve thrown baseless assertions (see above quotes) and empty statements like:
How can anyone respond to that?
If we are going to have a realistic discourse about this can we at least address the important points people have made.
Cutting people out of the conversation with “Thanks for the participation” is not how you direct a discussion.
In detail, what do you take this “adequate response” to be?
No, I believe an “adequate response” (in reference to what JPII refers to in the context of the nuptial system) is incompatible with a digital image.
Please tell me at which point my “premise of photography” becomes incompatible with your “stated opinion”…In reality it is your premise about photography that is incompatible with my stated opinion, of which fact I am already more than aware. Here, I believe, we are just going to have to agree to disagree.
There may be hope for you yet.
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oneofmany
Guest
I guess I don’t understand why you started this thread. Did you want an honest response from people on pictures of this nature and sending them over the Internet, or to find out what they think about sex?
My honest opinion is it can be dangerous for the reason of where they might turn up. If my hubby were the only other person in the world then I would send him tons of naked pics of me plus I would be open to going naked everywhere but he isn’t the only other person in the world and we need to take care of whose eyes might see such pics and my nakedness or his.
We are told not to post anything on the Internet if we don’t also want to send it in a post card around the world. You might remember that as well. Then do what you want to do if that doesn’t bother you.
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nute
Guest
Being a single person who is struggling with wanting to look at naked pictures online, I am not sympathetic to someone who sends them out even to a spouse. Sex is not love, sex is a gift from God that gives humanity a share in creation and for married people sex has a bonding effect. Every time I look at a picture of a naked woman or worse a woman having sex, what am I really doing? Is it really any different if you see a naked picture of your spouse? Men are wired to view sex from a physical perspective. We are highly tuned in sexually to a naked woman. If men weren’t, would they have any interest in sex? I think it is bad enough that us men have wet dreams that we have no control over. There is no sin there until a sexual dream is dwelled on. A picture of your spouse naked, especially for a man, is going to make him lust after her. Nakedness is not sinful, but lust is. Lust is even sinful within marriage. One must control their passions even with a spouse where the spouse must respect the challenge of maintaining control over those passions and be fully supportive. A picture of your wife naked is no substitute for being with her in a private place naked, communicating with her in a positive way, and having beautiful glorious sex with her. Pictures can easily get into the hands of the wrong people, which presents both a privacy and a modesty issue. Married people should keep their sex lives private because God needs us his children to be monogamous. I sometimes feel that I lost a girlfriend of many years because I asked her for naked pictures. I dumped the pictures, but it’s hard to prove that. She was just using me, so I needed to be dumped by her. Sometimes losing her still hurts, fortunately, I don’t pine for her anymore. I morally can’t desire her anymore, she remarried. I try not to hate her. I try to pray for her and her children. Unfortunately, she isn’t even a friend of mine anymore. She never was, but it’s hard to accept that where thinking she was my friend is by far more appealing. Naked pictures are dangerous things, be careful and please pray for me. I have depression and loneliness issues. Send your spouse clothed pictures that you wouldn’t mind other people seeing, this is much safer. Above all, tell him you love him frequently.
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thewanderer
Guest
I don’t really understand why you are trying to dissect what I have said in such an aggressive manner, but here goes.
Well, it can be hard to find the right words to express exactly what I mean, but I will try at a preliminary explanation. Essentially, the adequate response to a complete gift of self is a similar movement of self-gift. This movement to give-oneself wholly to another is an internal movement which expressess itself through external actions, it is essentially the desire to give oneself completely, to reaffirm ones complete and unconditional gift of self to other. Since it is an internal movement it cannot be judged solely by external actions. An adequate response, therefore, to a nude photo of ones spouse which is intended as a sign of ones desire to completely give oneself would be the mirrored desire of a reciprocal self-gift. I seriously do not see how anyone could assert that such a desire could never come about from looking at a picture.
Thank you for your correction, that is essentially what I meant.
You believe that a photograph is incapable of eliciting an adequate response, I do not. Since I believe a photograph is capable of eliciting an ‘adequate response’ I see no contradiction between JPII’s statement and the conclusion that there is nothing intrinsically immoral about spouses looking at nude photos of each other. This conclusion, however, is only possible by rejecting the assumption that a photgraph is incapable of eliciting an adequate response. Therefore my conclusion is incompatible with your assumption. I’m not really sure how to explain this more clearly.
I’m sorry, but the condescension in this remark is not exactly appreciated, especially since I have explicitly said this same thing multiple times throughout this thread.There may be hope for you yet.
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oneofmany
Guest
nute, maybe watching Michael Voris this week may help you. I think men have a much harder time with this and porn addiction than women do. Women aren’t turned on with the visual as much.
churchmilitant.tv/daily/?today=2013-02-11
churchmilitant.tv/daily/?today=2013-02-12
Also don’t feel guilty with dreams and those things you have no control over. No priest would tell you that is a sin.
churchmilitant.tv/daily/?today=2013-02-11
churchmilitant.tv/daily/?today=2013-02-12
Also don’t feel guilty with dreams and those things you have no control over. No priest would tell you that is a sin.
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