Name It, Claim It

[LilyM]

Did we forget the professional landscapers and arborists?

You know me, like to keep my name-it-claim-it goals modest

 

[Damascus]

You know me, like to keep my name-it-claim-it goals modest

Well, you are not “getting” the prosperity gospel then my friend.

The more the more blessed you are – dont you see?

 

[rr1213]

Does anyone know of a good critique from the Catholic pov of the “Prosperity Gospel” (aka “Name it and claim it”)? I did a search for an appropriate article in THIS ROCK, but was unable to locate one.

Thank you.

As noted by someone above, the life of Christ is the best refutation. Jesus lived as a wandering teacher…a prophet with no honor in his own country. He lived among the poor, ill and oppressed. He died a horrible death. And what does He say to us? If they hate me, they will hate you. The pupil is not greater than the master. The first shall be last and the last first.

 

[FCEGM]

You are seriously confusing the Word of Faith Movement with the Charismatic movement. Two totally different things. See if you can delete your post as I would not want people thinking JPII was a name it and claim it Pope.

While they are different, there does seem to be encroachment of WoF into C.

 

[didymus]

Does anyone know of a good critique from the Catholic pov of the “Prosperity Gospel” (aka “Name it and claim it”)? I did a search for an appropriate article in THIS ROCK, but was unable to locate one.

Thank you.

Funny you should mention this.
My wife is an evangelical & just started going to a new church. She said today the preaching was on “whatever you ask for will be given to you”. When the pastor called people to come up for prayer, ,y wife, who wears dentures asked for a new full set of teeth. To give her credit, the pastor said, “It’s not gonna happen.”

 

[BlestOne]

Normally I hate Time Magazine anymore but here is a blog about an article they ran: albertmohler.com/blog_read.php?id=772

 

[MrS]

Did we forget the professional landscapers and arborists?

Okay for the landscapers…but that is it… this Santa is pro-life.

Mr S(anta)

.

 

[Damascus]

Okay for the landscapers…but that is it… this Santa is pro-life.

Mr S(anta)

.

LOL!!! Bad spelling does it again. I guess its an outhouse for me!

 

[Damascus]

Joel Osteen, who has been labeled “the prosperity preacher” for his emphasis on the blessings of wealth and career success, and Joyce Meyer, who urges her audiences to name and claim their blessings from God. All subscribe to the underlying premise of the health-and-wealth gospel: the idea that God guarantees material blessings to believers who follow His rules.

This gospel has always had a special appeal to pragmatic Americans. We are hard workers and consummate consumers who expect a return for the goods we produce. If we serve God and meet His demands, we assume He should repay the favor by supplying what we want. And we assume that what we want—good health, financial security, etc.—is what God should want for us, too.

The trouble is, God does not always meet our expectations. Even in the good old days of Leviticus, prophets were persecuted while the wicked thrived. The canon of saints is a veritable “who’s who” of suffering souls, filled with men and women who endured poverty and physical and mental anguish. In our own lives, we know that our greatest trials often come just as we are working hardest to serve God. We may find ourselves saying with the saintly and long-suffering Teresa of Avila, “Lord, if this is how you treat your friends, it’s no wonder you have so few!”

Job said as much when he underwent his many trials. In the Old Testament book that bears his name, Job is described by the Lord as one unique on all the earth, “blameless and upright, fearing God and avoiding evil” (Job 1:8). Yet Job suffers the loss of his property, the death of his children, and attacks on his health—not to mention the bad advice of his misguided friends. In the end, a dialogue with God leads Job to acknowledge what has eluded the amateur theologians around him: the truth that we cannot control God or fully understand His ways this side of eternity.

“I know that you can do all things,” Job concludes at the end of his ordeal, “and that no purpose of yours can be hindered. I have dealt with great things that I do not understand; things too wonderful for me, which I cannot know . . . Therefore I disown what I have said, and repent in dust and ashes” (Job 42: 2–6).

God’s ways are not our own, and perhaps we should be grateful for that. A god who thought like us would never have taken on our frail human condition and suffered the agony of crucifixion to save our souls. The pragmatic god of the prosperity gospel would have taken one look at our selfishness and inconstancy and told us to save ourselves. The health-and-wealth gospel making a comeback today tempts us to worship a false god whose decisions we control. We should refuse to bow down to that idol and focus instead on entrusting ourselves completely to the will of the true God. His extravagant, self-emptying love is blessing enough for us.

---

I got this off a bookmark I had to fish around for. Also, check the threads on the forum that spoke of Joel Osteen and , well, I think you will find some doozies in the search feature.

He was um, in big doo doo.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

spiritualabuse.org/

1. John Osteen, Word of Faith mega-church pastor in Houston - his wife, Dodie got liver cancer and through the mercy of God and medical attention survived.

1. John Osteen himself passed away a little over a year ago due to several medical conditions. His church “confessed” his healing and he himself had stated that God told him he would be preaching in the pulpit in his 90’s. Osteen died in his 70’s.

1. Frederick K. Price, Word of Faith mega-church pastor in Los Angeles - his wife, Betty got cancer and was medically treated (chemo-therapy) and by the mercy of God was patched up. She wrote a book on her ordeal, just surf Betty Price at amazon.com.
   I guess after all the years of sitting under “anointed” faith teaching by one of the movements leading faith teachers was not enough for Fred’s wife - she needed a doctor after all.

1. T. L. Osborn’s wife, Daisy Osborn, died of cancer a few years back. Yet T. L is supposed to have a miracle ministry overseas, yet there was no supernatural healing for his wife.

1. Jamie Buckingham, Discipleship Movement & charismatic author - died of cancer. Jamie’s too was under a medical doctors care.

1. Charles Capps, Word of Faith teacher, teaches power of our words to create reality - his wife got cancer and was medically treated. I guess Chuck’s wife must have not spoken the right magic words to keep the cancer from her body.

1. John Wimber, Signs & Wonders Movement, author of “Power Healing,” - just died from cancer. He too, was medically treated - no “power” healing for him, only chemo-therapy.

1. Mack Timberlake, Word of Faith pastor - suffering from throat cancer, getting medical attention.

1. R.W. Schambach, Faith Healer - got a quadruple heart bypass (from a real live human doctor). Maybe so, but isn’t it nice that He has provided doctors too? Without them, R.W. would have long ago faced his judgment.

1. Dr. Hobart Freeman, Word of Faith teacher & pastor of Faith Assembly - over 90 people died in his church following his teaching and then Hobart died due to a medically treatable disease.

1. Prophet Keith Grayton, Prophetic Movement - died of the complications of AIDS. He spoke at our Church in Detroit, and declared he was totally healed. He died a year or so later.

1. Kenneth Hagin, “father” of the Word of Faith Movement - sister died of cancer, Hagin’s great faith and special anointing could not keep her on the planet.

1. Buddy Harrison, Kenneth E. Hagin’s son-in-law, died of cancer Dec. 1999. Dad Hagin’s “special healing anointing”

Katherine Khulman - an acknowledged divine healer DIED from heart disease in Ann Arbor Michigan.

A.A. Allen - an acknowledged divine healer and exorcist DIED from alcohol & drug abuse. Click here to read A.A. Allen’s death certificate.

Aimee Semple McPherson - an acknowledge divine healer - died of a barbiturate overdose. Why was she taking pills in the first place? Wasn’t the “peace” of God enough for her?
Jack Coe - an acknowledged divine healer DIED from disease.

Morality

1. Robert Tilton, Word of Faith Televangelist - 2 divorces, multiple law suits, caught in many lies, utters many false prophecies.

1. Peter Popoff, Televangelist - a proven fraud (read “The Faith Healers” by James Randi)

1. W.V. Grant, Televangelist - convicted felon for tax fraud, a divorcee.

1. Leroy Jenkins, Televangelist - convicted felon for arson & assault.

1. Jimmy Swaggert, Televangelist - adulterer, opulent lifestyle while crying broke on television.

1. Marilyn Hickey, Word of Faith teacher - shameless use of charismatic trinkets (blessed cornmeal, oils, cloths, seeds, coins, etc.).

1. Bishop McClendon’s divorces his wife of 16 years.

1. John Jacobs, founder of the world-renowned strongman evangelist ministry, The Power Team, has divorced his wife of 16 years, Ruthanne. The Jacobs have one son, Trey, age 3.

1. Amy Grant and her musician husband, Gary Chapman, are splitting up which ended nearly 17 years of marriage.

1. Tim Storey and his wife, Cindy, recently divorced. They have two children He attends an independent charismatic church in Southern California.

discernment.org/sick.htm

apologeticsindex.org/141-prosperity-health-and-wealth-teachings

 

[Karianne]

This is another thing I dislike about what I perceive to be characteristic of the charismatic movement (my perception could be wrong). The movement seems to be “me” centered.

But what do I know. Pope JPII and Fr. Groeschel are ok with it.

We had a visiting priest who said that if we needed a solid gold cadillac to save our souls that we would get it.

 

[MrStain]

Joel Osteen, who has been labeled “the prosperity preacher” for his emphasis on the blessings of wealth and career success, and Joyce Meyer, who urges her audiences to name and claim their blessings from God. All subscribe to the underlying premise of the health-and-wealth gospel: the idea that God guarantees material blessings to believers who follow His rules.
.

Instead of “Name it, Claim it”, this teaching should be called “He who Smelt it, Dealt it” It just doesn’t pass the scriptural smell test!

 

[Liberian]

FGECM,

I don’t know of such a critique from the Church directly, but Deuteronomy 8:6-20 is a pretty stirring indictment. It shows some of the dangers associated with this sort of emphasis.

• Liberian

 

[mark_a]

You are seriously confusing the Word of Faith Movement with the Charismatic movement. Two totally different things.

Could be, but I’ve never heard of the Word of Faith Movement. I heard Fr. Groeschel speaking of the Charismatic movement on Catholic Radio, although I can’t claim I have perfect recollection.

See if you can delete your post as I would not want people thinking JPII was a name it and claim it Pope.

Sorry I’m too late to delete it. I wouldn’t want the same either. I did not make clear the distinction between my own rambling and the actual thread topic.

 

[mark_a]

We had a visiting priest who said that if we needed a solid gold cadillac to save our souls that we would get it.

As in: our needs are simpler than that?

 

[beckyann2597]

I only read the first post so I don’t know if anyone else has siad this, but this is also called “Health and Wealth Gospel” I would do a search for “Health and wealth” on Google along with the word Catholic and see what comes up. I once googled just health and wealth and there is plenty of Protestant websites saying how wrong this is as well. Good Luck.

 

[Victorious]

Does anyone know of a good critique from the Catholic pov of the “Prosperity Gospel” (aka “Name it and claim it”)?

How about the Mother of Unanswered Prayers from Mark 14:36:

And He said, “Abba, Father, all things are possible to Thee; remove this cup from me; yet not what I will, but what Thou wilt.”

 

[LilyM]

We had a visiting priest who said that if we needed a solid gold cadillac to save our souls that we would get it.

Oh, can I meet this lovely padre - I really need a solid gold Cadillac to save ***my ***soul :yup:

 

[FCEGM]

I only read the first post so I don’t know if anyone else has siad this, but this is also called “Health and Wealth Gospel” I would do a search for “Health and wealth” on Google along with the word Catholic and see what comes up. I once googled just health and wealth and there is plenty of Protestant websites saying how wrong this is as well. Good Luck.

Thanks, beckyann. In my searching I did find a very good critique written by a Protestant:

rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/posit.htm

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

It seems to me, to answer the prosperity gospel simply seek out good books on wealth from a christian, catholic perspective.

Didache,

Chapter 11. Concerning Teachers, Apostles, and Prophets. Whosoever, therefore, comes and teaches you all these things that have been said before, receive him. But if the teacher himself turns and teaches another doctrine to the destruction of this, hear him not. But if he teaches so as to increase righteousness and the knowledge of the Lord, receive him as the Lord. But concerning the apostles and prophets, act according to the decree of the Gospel. Let every apostle who comes to you be received as the Lord. But he shall not remain more than one day; or two days, if there’s a need. But if he remains three days, he is a false prophet. And when the apostle goes away, let him take nothing but bread until he lodges.** If he asks for money, he is a false prophet.** And every prophet who speaks in the Spirit you shall neither try nor judge; for every sin shall be forgiven, but this sin shall not be forgiven. But not every one who speaks in the Spirit is a prophet; but only if he holds the ways of the Lord. Therefore from their ways shall the false prophet and the prophet be known. And every prophet who orders a meal in the Spirit does not eat it, unless he is indeed a false prophet. And every prophet who teaches the truth, but does not do what he teaches, is a false prophet. And every prophet, proved true, working unto the mystery of the Church in the world, yet not teaching others to do what he himself does, shall not be judged among you, for with God he has his judgment; for so did also the ancient prophets. But whoever says in the Spirit, Give me money, or something else, you shall not listen to him. But if he tells you to give for others’ sake who are in need, let no one judge him.

earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

[8.] But besides this, it becomes one to consider also that many of the things which happen do not take place according to His mind, but arise from our wickedness. Say not then, “Why is one man rich who is wicked, and another poor who is righteous?” For first of all, one may give an account of these things also, and say that neither does the righteous receive any harm from his poverty, nay, even a greater addition of honor; and that the bad man in his riches possesses but a store of punishment on his future road, unless he be changed: and, even before punishment, often-times his riches become to him the cause of many evils, and lead him into ten thousand pitfalls. But God permits it, at the same to signify the free choice of the will, and also to teach all others not to be mad nor rave after money.

newadvent.org/fathers/220129.htm

And from hence again it went on to** money**; for the wish to have more than one’s neighbor of this world’s goods, arises from no other source, than from “love waxing cold.” The wish to have more than one’s share arises from no other source than recklessness, misanthropy, and arrogance toward others. Look at the earth, how wide is its extent? How far greater than we can use the expanse of the sky and the heaven? It is that He might put an end to your covetousness, that God has thus widely extended the bounds of the creation. And art thou then still grasping and even thus? And dost thou hear that covetousness is idolatry, and not shudder even at this? Do you wish to inherit the earth? Then have you no inheritance in heaven. Are you eager to leave an inheritance to others, that you may rob yourself of it? Tell me, if any one were to offer you power to possess all things, wouldest thou be unwilling? It is in your power now, if you will. Some, however, say, that they are grieved when they transmit the inheritance to others, and would fain have consumed it themselves, rather than see others become its masters. Nor do I acquit you of this weakness; for this too is characteristic of a weak soul. However, at least let as much as this be done. In your will leave Christ thine heir. It were your duty indeed to do so in your lifetime, for this would show a right disposition. Still, at all events, be a little generous, though it be but by necessity. For Christ indeed charged us to give to the poor with this object, to make us wise in our lifetime, to induce us to despise money, to teach us to look down upon earthly things. It is no contempt of money, as you think, to bestow it upon this man and upon that man when one dies, and is no longer master of it. Thou art then no longer giving of your own, but of absolute necessity: thanks to death, not to you. This is no act of affection, it is your loss. However, let it be done even thus; at least then give up your passion.

newadvent.org/fathers/230118.htm