Name one or two ways the Roman Catholic Church has been protestantized

[Yours_Truly]

Greeting during the Mass, if you are referring to the shaking of hands (peace greeting), this is not a Protestant invention, but an ancient part of the Mass that comes from the earliest Christians. It used to be with a kiss, but later evolved into a handshake …

The “kiss of peace” is part of the Traditional Latin Mass today. It is found in a Solemn High Mass (which has three Priests) and is performed as part of the ritual between the Priest’s. When did it evolve into a handshake, and when did the congregation ever take part in it?

If any Masses do not have this greeting as described above, then these are the ones who have “Protestantized” in that area.

I grew up as an Episcopal. Our liturgy was according to the *Book of Common Prayer *created by the heretic Cramner is 1546. This heretical liturgy is identical to the Novus Ordo today and includes the hand shaking “kiss of peace” (I always dreaded that part). The liturgy invented by the heretic Cranmer is so identical to the Novus Ordo Mass that when my sister went to her first Novus Ordo Mass she called me and said “that was just like Mass when we were kids. I followed right along.”

Since the Protestants have always had this hand shaking kiss of peace, NOT having it is not to immitate the Protestants. It is just the opposite.

 

[graceandglory]

The “kiss of peace” is part of the Traditional Latin Mass today. It is found in a Solemn High Mass (which has three Priests) and is performed as part of the ritual between the Priest’s. When did it evolve into a handshake, and when did the congregation ever take part in it?.

The Kiss of Peace being congregational is biblical, “Greet one another with a holy kiss,” and is also in Eastern Orthodox liturgies, that are older than protestant ones.

 

[Faith_at_Large]

The method of greeting is cultural. I am not certain when it evolved into a handshake, but it is not universally that way. There are many countries where people still greet with a kiss - as you do, and there are many countries that greet with and handshake.

I would wager that the great plagues of Europe might have had some influence on the matter as well, but that would be a guess on my part.

It sounded from the original post that the greeting in any form was objectionable. I am glad if it is only the change to a handshake that has been viewed as modern. Although I would disagree that this is a Protestant thing. A greeting is a greeting.

The handshake by its very roots is just as symbolic - it developed as greeting of peace - the use of one’s right hand (typically the dominant hand) was a way of showing that they would not be drawing a sword which was also with that hand. While this may not be of significance in first century Palestine, it was hugely important and symbolically understood in Europe over the course of time.

 

[bkovacs]

Goodness, this indeed turned into a thread about all the errors that have happened in some Catholic Parishes but many of them I see are not even protestant in nature, just humans trying to make Mass about themselves instead of God the Father, God the Son - Jesus Christ, and God the Holy Spirit!

Many Parishes are turning this around, the sign of Peace is not a big production like it used to be, we are singing some Latin and reverence is seen once others enter into the Sanctuary - we are working on that in the Mission Parish’s new building which will eventually be our Parish Hall. Think temporary quarters with chairs and concrete floors, no kneelers but better than half the Mass goers kneel at the appropriate times and the rest of us stand because that is what is called for! We have to conduct CCD in that room, we work with our children in reminding them that Jesus is present in the Tabernacle on the Altar and if we have a snack we go out into the foyer for it. So even in not so ideal conditions if people are taught right they will show the respect and this is where the Parish Priest must step in and remind people, even if he has to make an announcement 15 mins. before every Mass to remind people to be quiet as they are in the Sanctuary. So you see, you can get reverence out of people even in less than ideal circumstances.

You want a protestant innovation? How about the use of Pews! If any of you have been in any of the old Cathedrals and Churches in Europe you will find nary a pew, yes, the Faithful stood and knelt, they did not sit.

Brenda V.

So why is it taking so long. You can change the decor of a church in days. Put the tabernacle in the middle, install altar rails, order and install holy statues, and beautiful art. Next Mass priest faces ad-orientum, etcc. It doesn’t need to take decades!. As for pews, most pre Vatican 2 churches had pews. Those same Cathedrals and Churches didn’t have heat or bathrooms either. Some things are necessary.

 

[CB_Catholic]

The “kiss of peace” is part of the Traditional Latin Mass today. It is found in a Solemn High Mass (which has three Priests) and is performed as part of the ritual between the Priest’s. When did it evolve into a handshake, and when did the congregation ever take part in it?

I grew up as an Episcopal. Our liturgy was according to the *Book of Common Prayer *created by the heretic Cramner is 1546. This heretical liturgy is identical to the Novus Ordo today and includes the hand shaking “kiss of peace” (I always dreaded that part). The liturgy invented by the heretic Cranmer is so identical to the Novus Ordo Mass that when my sister went to her first Novus Ordo Mass she called me and said “that was just like Mass when we were kids. I followed right along.”

Since the Protestants have always had this hand shaking kiss of peace, NOT having it is not to immitate the Protestants. It is just the opposite.

The kiss of peace among the congregation has been around since the very early Church (like in Biblical times) and still is practiced in the Eastern churches. It preceded Cranmer by about a millenium and a half and is decidely Catholic, not Protestant. I don’t care what the liturgy invented by Cranmer contains, he did not invent the kiss of peace.

 

[Cat]

Help out a poor, Anglican. Cat, could you explain this inside joke?

Thanks!
Paul

OK. A couple of years ago, when I first discovered this forum (as a fairly new Catholic), I asked the simple question why Catholic churches don’t have coat racks.

It turned into a HUUUUUUUGGE big deal that went on for several pages. Some osters insisted that coat racks are Protestant and should never be allowed in Catholic churches… After all, the Mass is not some kind of “social how-de-doo” in which we take off our coats and get all comfy in the pews. The Mass is a sacrifice, and the congregation shouldn’t think of it as something welcoming and pleasant, but something to suffer through. Wearing a coat is a good ol’ Catholic tradition, and to suggest that Catholics take off their coats in Mass is utter sacrilege. etc. etc.

It was absolutely ridiculous the lengths that some posters went to to prove that coat racks were a Protestant abomination and that Catholic churches who added coat racks would also add rock music, dancing in church, speaking in tongues, hugging the neck, more rock music, and eventually lose everything that makes them Catholic and slide down into Protestant heresy.

All because of coat racks for women like me who get hot wearing a coat even in a cold building. (Actually, my fat is fake–it’s a fat suit, and I’m really a Protestant trying to infiltrate the church with my Protestant ideas, and installing coat racks is the first step in my devious plan! Bwoo ha ha!)

I honestly think the thread would be a good plot for one of those musicals about Catholics (along the lines of Nunsense). It’s got the same idea as Music Man–something perfectly innocent and amoral becomes the focus for a giant campaign that divides the whole church and turns people against each other. Coat Racks–go see it on Broadway.

Eventually things got so heated that the moderators closed the thread. I’m surprised that “coat racks” hasn’t showed up as a “forbidden topic” here on Catholic Answers. Maybe it will after this post, and I’ll probably be put on suspension for re-introducing a controversial topic. Of course, it’s getting to be spring now, and people don’t wear coats to church anymore. Curses, foiled again! But next winter…bwoo ha ha!

 

[whatevergirl]

Cradle Cath–just one thing about your #1 regarding Catholic schools. My sister and husband went to Catholic schools growing up, and the difference between now and then, are tuition rates. They were highly affordable…back 40 years ago. They were largely run by nuns, who didn’t receive larger salaries like lay teachers teaching in Catholic schools, today. That being said…highschool near and around where we live is to the tune of $15k per year…so it’s not really comparing apples to apples, when you speak of the sacrifices our parents made so we could go to Catholic schools. A “sacrifice” wasn’t all that necessary back then, my husband was one of nine kids, and all nine kids went to Catholic schools, and his dad did well, but he wasn’t a doctor or lawyer or anything…so, they could easily afford to send all of the kids straight through to highschool.

So, while I understand your sentiments about the attendance going down in Catholic schools, it isn’t because people won’t make sacrifices (maybe in some cases it is) It’s because it is a whole different situaiton than when my husband and sister attended many moons ago…plain and simple, it’s very expensive in many areas of the country to send one’s kids to Catholic school.

I am not sure either what this has to do with the Protestantization of the Catholic Church? Unless it is to say that more lay teachers are teaching in Catholic schools, than clergy…that definitely has changed the whole Catholic school ‘experience’ if you will.

Just wanted to share my thoughts on that one part of your reply.

 

[TMC]

I see two broad themes emerging from the comments here: 1) the Mass is the Church, and 2) Mass must always be celebrated the way it was in late 19th and early 20th Century in the US and Western Europe.

As to the first, the form of the Mass is important, but The Church cannot be “protestantized” by the minor liturgical changes discussed here.

For the second, most of the complaints would make no sense during much, if not most, of Church history. There were no confessionals for at least a third of Church history. The organ wasn’t used in Church until the second millenium, there is nothing particularly holy about it, and nothing unholy about other instruments. The type and style of music used in worship has changed through the centuries, as have traditions about greeting others, the kiss of peace, forms of dress, etc.

The Church is bigger than each of our limited opinions of the “right” way to worship.

 

[slyboots]

Since when do Protestant churches, at least of the evangelical variety, have altar girls OR boys!!! Or the “Eucharist?” Or “liturgy?” QUOTE]

I was a “altar server and candlelighter” in the Methodist church when I was 8 or 9. That was back when Methodist minsters preached Hellfire and damnation still. It was a very evangelical Bible belt church. I am 56 and female. We also called the “table” an altar. and had “altar calls”. We did not, as you observed, call it Eucharist. It was communion.

 

[T700]

OK. A couple of years ago, when I first discovered this forum (as a fairly new Catholic), I asked the simple question why Catholic churches don’t have coat racks.

It turned into a HUUUUUUUGGE big deal that went on for several pages.

Several pages? Try 11 pages before a moderator had to step in and enforce the peace! LOL

For reference, the Anglican church we used to attend did have a small coat room (more of a coat alcove) just as you entered, but it was little used. It did however, contain “The Button”.

The button looked like an old doorbell you might see on a house from the 1920’s, only about twice as large as a normal doorbell. It had a small, metal frame holder under it with a card in the holder. In the tight, cursive script of someone who learned to write in decades past, it said, “ONLY for Priest”.

For years, I wondered what it did, but never thought of it until just before the service was about to start, so I didn’t want to push it and have a siren go off or something similarly disruptive. Asking the oldest members proved fruitless, as they were as clueless about it as I was. Finally, one Saturday when I was there working on other things, I remember the button and Father (who was as curious as me) and I walked up to it. I pushed it.

The lights all over the church dimmed for moment, there was a distant, rumbling sound as though something ancient and powerful was coming to life, and then…silence. Father and I looked at each other. His face was pale and he looked shaken. We never did find out what we turned on or off and we never again pressed the button. If you go to that church today, you will find a metal, thermostat cover strategically installed over The Button.

Paul

ps. Sorry for hijacking the thread!

 

[palmas85]

I’m not sure that it has been protestantized as much as it has been new aged in many places. When we lost a lot of out traditions after Vatican II people desperately looked for something to replace them.

About the only things I have seen that are really protestant in nature are the charismatics and the cult of personalty that seems to surround more than a few priests these days.

 

[bkovacs]

I see two broad themes emerging from the comments here: 1) the Mass is the Church, and 2) Mass must always be celebrated the way it was in late 19th and early 20th Century in the US and Western Europe.

As to the first, the form of the Mass is important, but The Church cannot be “protestantized” by the minor liturgical changes discussed here.

For the second, most of the complaints would make no sense during much, if not most, of Church history. There were no confessionals for at least a third of Church history. The organ wasn’t used in Church until the second millenium, there is nothing particularly holy about it, and nothing unholy about other instruments. The type and style of music used in worship has changed through the centuries, as have traditions about greeting others, the kiss of peace, forms of dress, etc.

The Church is bigger than each of our limited opinions of the “right” way to worship.

The new Mass (Pauline Mass) was more than a minor liturgical change. Everything changed. The new Mass closely resembles a Protestant Mass. Go to an Episcopal Church and compare it. Music did change, but there is a huge difference from sacred liturgical music to folk music. With that mindset you may as well play Rock and Roll at Church. Sure that can be Holy to.

You should look at the liturgies of the East, and then ask yourself, why are they still chanting, and why do their priests still face away from the people. Why didn’t they create all new liturgies, to replace the Divine Liturgies. Same argument traditional Catholics have. There was no need to change the Holy Mass. Small changes, like maybe putting it into the vernacular, ok. But not creating a whole new Mass, that completely removed all Roman Catholic identity.

As for the Church. The people and the faith make up the Church. But the Holy Mass or Liturgy is an expression of our worship to God. And that expression never needed to be changed so drastically as it did after Vatican 2.

 

[Cat]

Cat;4941385:

Since when do Protestant churches, at least of the evangelical variety, have altar girls OR boys!!! Or the “Eucharist?” Or “liturgy?” QUOTE]

I was a “altar server and candlelighter” in the Methodist church when I was 8 or 9. That was back when Methodist minsters preached Hellfire and damnation still. It was a very evangelical Bible belt church. I am 56 and female. We also called the “table” an altar. and had “altar calls”. We did not, as you observed, call it Eucharist. It was communion.

I am speaking of evangelical churches according to the modern definition of the term. Here is a link to a good article from Wheaton College defining evangelicalism:

wheaton.edu/isae/defining_evangelicalism.html

The churches described in this article are what I grew up in and served in for most of my life.

Generally speaking, Methodists are considered “mainline,” not "evangelical. Here is a link to a list of the denominations that are currently members of the National Association of Evangelicals:

nae.net/index.cfm?FUSEACTION=nae.members

There are a few Methodist denominations on this list; perhaps you were part of one of these denominations. But the biggie–the United Methodist Church (UMC) is definitely NOT part of the NAE and never has been.

 

[LilyM]

I grew up as an Episcopal. Our liturgy was according to the *Book of Common Prayer *created by the heretic Cramner is 1546. This heretical liturgy is identical to the Novus Ordo today and includes the hand shaking “kiss of peace” (I always dreaded that part). The liturgy invented by the heretic Cranmer is so identical to the Novus Ordo Mass that when my sister went to her first Novus Ordo Mass she called me and said “that was just like Mass when we were kids. I followed right along.”

Since the Protestants have always had this hand shaking kiss of peace, NOT having it is not to immitate the Protestants. It is just the opposite.

Identical? :ehh: I suppose they include our prayers for Pope Benedict, and the bishops and priests of the CATHOLIC Church then?

I suppose it includes the prayers for the souls in Purgatory? The references to Mary that are there in our Eucharistic prayers?

I suppose they celebrate all the same saints’ feasts and feasts of Our Lady (ie Immaculate Conception, Assumption, OL of Lourdes, Mount Carmel, Guadalupe or Fatima, etc) and mention THEM in the prayers of the Mass on those days the way the NO does?

Above all, I’m guessing that since they’re IDENTICAL then they must ALSO have IDENTICAL results - ie a valid consecration and Eucharist, no?

Look, I’ve been to very high Anglican Mass - true that forms are similar, but their Mass is no more identical to ours than their ‘Bishops’ or their bibles are - in all cases they miss numerous absolutely crucial elements and as a result are nothing more than a mere poor-quality copy lacking in substance. No more identical than a photograph of food is to the real thing.

 

[Brenda_V]

So why is it taking so long. You can change the decor of a church in days. Put the tabernacle in the middle, install altar rails, order and install holy statues, and beautiful art. Next Mass priest faces ad-orientum, etcc. It doesn’t need to take decades!. As for pews, most pre Vatican 2 churches had pews. Those same Cathedrals and Churches didn’t have heat or bathrooms either. Some things are necessary.

Well it isn’t that easy to “change the decor of a church” in days. In my Mother Parish it was built on a budget, the first and most important item needed was a tabernacle, the one we had when I first started going (28 years ago) now is in the new school’s chapel (front and center I might add) and a new more ornate one is in it’s place, front and center as well! This Parish never had Altar rails as it was built after V2 but they could be easily added should it be decided that money should be used for that and not to help the school! We also have added Statues as we have gone along, just so you know this Parish is only 30 or so years old but it takes time and more importantly money to get the statues - have you any idea how much a good one costs?

The new MIssion Parish (will be a Parish in it’s own right eventually) already has two beautiful Statues, one of our Lady and the other of Mother Cabrini. We purchased/inherited the crucifix (yes, crucifix!) and Stations from a Parish in Wisconsin which was being closed down (sad to hear) and if you don’t believe in miracles let me share with you the miracle of these sacred items: the Parish had already been closed down, the person who was obtaining them for us had them put in his garage, the following weekend the church building burned down! This is like only one or two days from when he took them into his garage for storage (a year before we were able to move into our building) and when the church building had burned down, the Diocese was fine with us storing them in there for a time as they hadn’t sold the property yet.

Now, I want you to stop and think about those Cathedrals, truly are pews a necessity? What about bathrooms (which I never mentioned)? I have been in older churches here in the US that did not have a bathroom on the premises, you had to go to a newer building to use one. I don’t recall the Cathedrals and older churches I visited some 30 years ago having bathrooms and some still didn’t have the rows and rows of pews like we have. There were WC’s outside, provided by the city for tourists but not in the Church itself.

Also, the time it took to build these Churches was far more than the time you want things turned back around! Now, before you get all bent out of shape, yes, I personally think that removing the altar rails and removing the old altars instead of just adding the altar tables like we have now was wrong, wrong, wrong! It is far harder to go back and replace than to take away!

One last thing, as someone who has had the opportunity to hear and participate in Easter Mass twice on the ruins of what is thought to be the original church of St. Paul I will say that I came to a better understanding of what the Mass is and it isn’t the building, those will eventually tumble down but Jesus Christ and His Church will never tumble down.

Brenda V.

 

[The_Reginator]

Liturgy + Sacred Scripture + Sacred Tradition = Truth. Remove any of these elements then the equation has a different outcome.

 

[thunderballs75]

Identical? :ehh: I suppose they include our prayers for Pope Benedict, and the bishops and priests of the CATHOLIC Church then?

I suppose it includes the prayers for the souls in Purgatory? The references to Mary that are there in our Eucharistic prayers?

I suppose they celebrate all the same saints’ feasts and feasts of Our Lady (ie Immaculate Conception, Assumption, OL of Lourdes, Mount Carmel, Guadalupe or Fatima, etc) and mention THEM in the prayers of the Mass on those days the way the NO does?

Above all, I’m guessing that since they’re IDENTICAL then they must ALSO have IDENTICAL results - ie a valid consecration and Eucharist, no?

Look, I’ve been to very high Anglican Mass - true that forms are similar, but their Mass is no more identical to ours than their ‘Bishops’ or their bibles are - in all cases they miss numerous absolutely crucial elements and as a result are nothing more than a mere poor-quality copy lacking in substance. No more identical than a photograph of food is to the real thing.

Woah, how come my NO doesn’t have prayers for the souls in purgatory or references to Mary or the saints?? AWW!!

 

[LilyM]

Woah, how come my NO doesn’t have prayers for the souls in purgatory or references to Mary or the saints?? AWW!!

Maybe because you haven’t been listening to the words of the Eucharistic prayers (assuming that the priest is more or less saying them as written)? They ALL contain prayers for the souls of the faithful departed, and references to our hopes of sharing in the glory of Mary and the Saints. Not to mention the Creed, of course, which mentions all these things.

 

[bkovacs]

Yeah same here. I went to a NO Mass with my Mother, and I don’t remember any prayer to the poor souls in purgatory or a prayer being said for Pope Benedict XVI in his times of tribulation, either. There was no mention of an attack against the Pope from the media either. Must be a different Pope they are praying for. Or they are all for the media being against the Pope’s views on tradition and the reform of the reform.

 

[LilyM]

If neither of you have ever heard these words, or incredibly similar, after the Consecration, which words are said in every Eucharistic Prayer of every OF Mass, then you cannot possibly have been listening, or else your priest abuses the Mass to an extraordinary degree:

"In memory of his death and resurrection, we offer you, Father, this life-giving bread, this saving cup. We thank you for counting us worthy to stand in your presence and serve you. May all of us who share in the body and blood of Christ be brought together in unity by the Holy Spirit.

Lord, remember your Church throughout the world; make us grow in love, together with Benedict our Pope, {name} our bishop, and all the clergy. Remember our brothers and sisters who have gone to their rest in the hope of rising again; bring them and all the departed into the light of your presence. Have mercy on us all; make us worthy to share eternal life with Mary, the virgin Mother of God, with the apostles, and with all the saints who have done your will throughout the ages. May we praise you in union with them, and give you glory through your Son, Jesus Christ. "

And if you HAVE heard them and didn’t realise that they constitute prayers for our Pope, prayers for the souls in Purgatory and prayers in union with Mary and the saints (none of which would get a look in in any Protestant service) then you haven’t understood what you’ve heard.