Name one or two ways the Roman Catholic Church has been protestantized

[BSHoop96]

With respect to the Mass, let’s consider a few of the changes to the liturgy that the Protestant heretics of the 16th century employed and see if there are any similarities to the new Mass.

1.) The heretics changed the language from Latin to the vernacular.

2.) The heretics began to receive communion under both forms.

3.) The heretics received in the hand while standing.

4.) The heretics stripped their churches of the statues, and replaced Gregorian chant with more secular style music.

5.) The heretics downplayed the sacrificial nature of the Mass, and focused on the community meal aspect.

6.) The heretics had the minister begin to face the people.

7.) And lastly they offered their service on a table, rather than an altar.

Let us consider if any of these changes are found in the new Mass. If so, we should ask ourselves if the heretics were correct in what they did? Were they being led by the Holy Ghost, but just a little ahead of their time? And let us also consider the “fruits” of the heretics “mass” and those of the Novus Ordo. In both cases the fruits have been generally the same: A loss of faith in the sacrificial nature of the Mass and in belief in the true presence. In short, a loss of the Catholic faith.

I was reading thru the posts and thinking about my answer. Then I read this post and realized it was probably just going to turn into another rant against the NO…I don’t know what I expected…all too common in the Traditional Forum. Goodbye.

 

[Ockham]

With respect to the Mass, let’s consider a few of the changes to the liturgy that the Protestant heretics of the 16th century employed and see if there are any similarities to the new Mass.

1.) The heretics changed the language from Latin to the vernacular.

2.) The heretics began to receive communion under both forms.

3.) The heretics received in the hand while standing.

4.) The heretics stripped their churches of the statues, and replaced Gregorian chant with more secular style music.

5.) The heretics downplayed the sacrificial nature of the Mass, and focused on the community meal aspect.

6.) The heretics had the minister begin to face the people.

7.) And lastly they offered their service on a table, rather than an altar.

Let us consider if any of these changes are found in the new Mass. If so, we should ask ourselves if the heretics were correct in what they did? Were they being led by the Holy Ghost, but just a little ahead of their time? And let us also consider the “fruits” of the heretics “mass” and those of the Novus Ordo. In both cases the fruits have been generally the same: A loss of faith in the sacrificial nature of the Mass and in belief in the true presence. In short, a loss of the Catholic faith.

Worth repeating. Indeed it is far too easy to name one or two ways the Catholic Church has been protestantized, the tougher question is what are we going to do about it?

As others have noted:

1. Clamshell architecture w/ choir up front
2. Glory and praise music (Martin Luther’s hymns, “As we gather at your table”, etc)
3. Lay people performing the sacraments
4. Worry free sermons - absence of words “catechism”, “sin”, “duty” “responsibility”, etc
5. Priests appearing in public without their collar
6. Watered down vestaments
7. Loss of traditional devotions and prayers
8. Sacred Art absent
9. Confessionals being used as closets;
10. Sacrament of Confession turned into penitential group hug
11. Novelty/Creative themed Masses (Life Teen, Healing, etc)
12. Abuse Masses (clowns, cowboys, balloons, Austrian)
13. The word “or” as in Eucharistic Prayer 9, or 10, or 11, etc
14. Add two additional year cycles to the Missal making it over-sized for use at Mass
15. Baptismal fonts at the front or in the sanctuary
16. Tabernacle removed from the centre of the sanctuary ('They have taken the Lord from the tomb, and we don’t know where they put him John 20:2)
17. Empty Crosses (“if you are the Son of God come down from the Cross” Matthew 27:40)
18. Lack of prayer. Before Mass - socialize. After Mass - dash.

Sadly, the list goes on…

 

[Appleby]

in other churches, they kind of socialize with each other or even interact with the pastor… by saying Amen, etc…

I always liked the way the Mass would focus on God and His Son… and there wasn’t all this half-way socializing stuff going on during Mass…

another thing i don’t like about shaking hands during Mass (other than it distracts the attn from God) is that some people know each other & therefore are or seem to be more friendly toward their acquantances at this time of the Mass than they are to unknowns… or people who, for instance, work for a living and may not be in their Sunday best or what have you…

My former parish had this problem – they tended to either ignore people they didn’t know or treat us as if we had cooties.

My current parish does not interrupt the Mass for socializing, and that is the way I like it.

I would add that singing Baptist hymns is definitely not a Catholic thing, although personally I like them, having spent a lot of time in Bible camp as a child.

 

[distracted]

1. By Vatican II ignoring the mandate of PIUS V in Quo Primum not to change the Mass,
2. Paul VI’s new mass has the wrong words of consacration “for all” when it s/h/b “for many”. I know there are several versions but the way “the changes” wre inacted here in the US substantiate my assertion.
3. Acceptance de factor of homosectuality especially in the priesthood.

i didn’t know Pius V had a mandate not to change the Mass… did he mean not change it in ANY way??

I need to learn more about him…

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

The Church is bigger than each of our limited opinions of the “right” way to worship.

This reminds me of a quote from Cardinal Neumann. A Protestant said to him, “You worship God your way, and I’ll worship him mine - what is wrong with that??”

The Cardinal’s response was that the man was free to worship God in his way, but the Cardinal would worship Him in God’s way.

Of course there are right vs. wrong, and superior vs. inferior, ways to worship.

That doesn’t mean everything in this thread falls into that category.

I don’t really have any time at the moment, but for a quick point, just imagine if the Old Testament worship had at some been transformed with such ‘creativity’! With the types of absence of the liturgical and absence of reverence we see in many ways today!

You’d a had a lotta smoking craters, that’s what.

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

Look, I’ve been to very high Anglican Mass - true that forms are similar, but their Mass is no more identical to ours than their ‘Bishops’ or their bibles are - in all cases they miss numerous absolutely crucial elements and as a result are nothing more than a mere poor-quality copy lacking in substance. No more identical than a photograph of food is to the real thing.

Critical points: A Mass is still a Mass. On the inside, it is infinitely more efficacious that any Protestant simulation.

Some of us just want it a little prettier on the outside.

 

[distracted]

Perhaps this is the case for the Masses you attend, I hear Purgatory and Hell preached about in homilies.

You’d have hated going to Mass in the early Church, they exchanged a KISS, not a handshake like now.

A homily is not time to teach in depth on apologetics and what is taught by protestants, that is why we have classes and lectures and study groups.

i’m not asking for something along the lines of Purgatory 101 classes in lieu of a homily…

but when it isn’t even mentioned at funeral Masses… something is wrong… I mean, it seems priests often say or imply that a person is in Heaven when no one knows that… no one knows where the person may be and therefore, the priest should be asking people to pray for the person… but that never happens…

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

i’m not asking for something along the lines of Purgatory 101 classes in lieu of a homily…

but when it isn’t even mentioned at funeral Masses… something is wrong… I mean, it seems priests often say or imply that a person is in Heaven when no one knows that… no one knows where the person may be and therefore, the priest should be asking people to pray for the person… but that never happens…

You’re so right about that one - and calling this a Protestanization of the faith is a completely accurate way to put it.

The theology espoused so frequently has simply become de-facto Protestant, in this and other areas. Talk of Purgatory is out - an extremely important subject, especially at a funeral, and thoughts of such used to be high on the minds of Catholic families when being parted from a loved one! (They need our Masses!)

I think a lot’s been said in this thread and I won’t go on and on. Anyone who can’t see that the practical Church in most of America looks far more Protestant than it used to (1950, say) can’t see clearly or doesn’t know what Catholicism really is - even apart from the vast changes in the liturgy, none of which were approved by the Council.

Course, I still love the Church. We’ve got our superb local Institute of Christ the King Latin Mass, with a knock-you-out killer homily every week, and places where the NO is just fine.

(The fact that daily Masses have no sermon is nowadays sometimes a blessing of a different sort. Has anybody tried to count the number of ways it’s possible to say ‘be nice to people’? That seems to be the subject of a good 80% of the sermons in the area, no joke.)

 

[thunderballs75]

You’re so right about that one - and calling this a Protestanization of the faith is a completely accurate way to put it.

The theology espoused so frequently has simply become de-facto Protestant, in this and other areas. Talk of Purgatory is out - an extremely important subject, especially at a funeral, and thoughts of such used to be high on the minds of Catholic families when being parted from a loved one! (They need our Masses!)

I think a lot’s been said in this thread and I won’t go on and on. Anyone who can’t see that the practical Church in most of America looks far more Protestant than it used to (1950, say) can’t see clearly or doesn’t know what Catholicism really is - even apart from the vast changes in the liturgy, none of which were approved by the Council.

Course, I still love the Church. We’ve got our superb local Institute of Christ the King Latin Mass, with a knock-you-out killer homily every week, and places where the NO is just fine.

(The fact that daily Masses have no sermon is nowadays sometimes a blessing of a different sort. Has anybody tried to count the number of ways it’s possible to say ‘be nice to people’? That seems to be the subject of a good 80% of the sermons in the area, no joke.)

Treating your neighbors kindly was one of the most important teachings of our Lord. But it is too bad that half of Catholics don’t believe in purgatory or even know what it is.

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

Treating your neighbors kindly was one of the most important teachings of our Lord. But it is too bad that half of Catholics don’t believe in purgatory or even know what it is.

Of course it was. And it’s also extremely basic to the faith, as basic as it gets. And NOT an area of knowledge anyone is lacking in these days.

What is AVOIDED is:

• REAL theology.
• ANYTHING that will be construed as ‘negative’ or ‘judgmental’ to anyone.

That general attitude it NOT Catholicism. It is not the historical Church.

 

[Gardenman]

How about the fact that PROTESTANTS were actively involved in Vatican II !!!

What I want to know is WHY ! Why were Potestants included in the decision making for things that involve the CATHOLIC faith?

You can pretty much blame Vatican II for the mess that exists now. We invited Protestants to come in and destroy so many facets of our faith and we are now seeing the results.

What’s next? Islamic leaders speaking to us during the homily? And don’t think that’s too far fetched, either.

 

[Steve40]

We don’t teach that Outside the Church There is No Salvation from a Sacremental perspective.

 

[LilyM]

How about the fact that PROTESTANTS were actively involved in Vatican II !!!

What I want to know is WHY ! Why were Potestants included in the decision making for things that involve the CATHOLIC faith?

You can pretty much blame Vatican II for the mess that exists now. We invited Protestants to come in and destroy so many facets of our faith and we are now seeing the results.

What’s next? Islamic leaders speaking to us during the homily? And don’t think that’s too far fetched, either.

You do know, do you not, that Protestants were invited to be ‘actively involved’ in Trent, Vatican I and probably other councils in between. This is above all because we can’t simply ignore the existence of non-Catholics, or their criticisms of us, stick our heads in the sand and hope they’ll go away or something.

If we are to have any hope of resolution we do have to actually listen to them, right or wrong. Trent, for example, took on board Luther’s criticism of the sale of indulgences (and the points raised in a good ten or dozen of the other 94 theses as well, while we’re at it) - and was happy to address Protestants and their concerns head-on by actively inviting them to be part of the solution.

Paul, too, actively sought out the Jews and the Greeks - and wasn’t scared to pay compliments to the devoutness of the Greeks or cleverly co-opt their belief in an ‘unknown God’ (which, whoever he or she may have been, certainly was not the One True God!) for his own purposes.

More than that - he stood up for the Gentiles at the Council of Jerusalem when some were calling for them to be circumcised and adopt the Jewish law in toto. Sounds like he would definitely have invited them to Trent or Vatican 2 had it been called in his day!

 

[Steve40]

You do know, do you not, that Protestants were invited to be ‘actively involved’ in Trent, Vatican I and probably other councils in between. This is above all because we can’t simply ignore the existence of non-Catholics, or their criticisms of us, stick our heads in the sand and hope they’ll go away or something.

If we are to have any hope of resolution we do have to actually listen to them, right or wrong. Trent, for example, took on board Luther’s criticism of the sale of indulgences (and the points raised in a good ten or dozen of the other 94 theses as well, while we’re at it) - and was happy to address Protestants and their concerns head-on by actively inviting them to be part of the solution.

Paul, too, actively sought out the Jews and the Greeks - and wasn’t scared to pay compliments to the devoutness of the Greeks or cleverly co-opt their belief in an ‘unknown God’ (which, whoever he or she may have been, certainly was not the One True God!) for his own purposes.

More than that - he stood up for the Gentiles at the Council of Jerusalem when some were calling for them to be circumcised and adopt the Jewish law in toto. Sounds like he would definitely have invited them to Trent or Vatican 2 had it been called in his day!

I don’t have a problem with listening but an attitude of unity at all costs doesn’t help anyone. John Paul II kissing the Koran was an offensive gesture but he’s human. I’ve offended a few people in my day so who am I to judge.

 

[LilyM]

I don’t have a problem with listening but an attitude of unity at all costs doesn’t help anyone. John Paul II kissing the Koran was an offensive gesture but he’s human. I’ve offended a few people in my day so who am I to judge.

I’m not commenting on JP2’s gesture in any way shape or form, I’m only responding to the particular criticism of Vatican 2 that gardenman brought up (ie that Protestants were involved).

Now I especially do NOT think the actions of St Pius V in inviting Protestants to Trent, the Pope of the day in doing the same at Vatican I, or John XXIII/Paul VI at Vatican II, constitute ‘unity at all costs’, any more than a divorcing couple and their respective lawyers getting together around a table, to thrash out their differences in a civil manner, constitutes ‘unity at all costs’!

 

[angillusion]

Altar Girls

I have to say, at no time in my life have I felt closer to my faith as a Catholic than when I was an altar girl. I went to Catholic School for 12 years, and the reverence and respect I felt by being allowed to be serving God so actively was an incredible experience. I guess I don’t really understand the vehemence against altar girls.

 

[Brenda_V]

LilyM I wanted to quote your posts #72 & #74 specifically but in this entire thread you have been the voice of reason.

LilyM - just wanted to publicly say thank you for your level headed responses to some of these accusations.

If I were to just read this thread and others just like it I would think that the Catholic Church was going to H–L in a handbasket. I know better because I see so many Priests and parishioners not doing what is being said is happening here, I hear great homilies, hard teachings. I see people in less than ideal environments showing utter respect and reverence to Jesus in the Tabernacle and in what is one day going to be a Parish Hall. No, we don’t have Altar rails, yes we stand to receive and can choose on the tongue or in the hand with a good mix.

I don’t travel as often as I used to so I can not say how much this kind of thing is happening and I do believe that there are those who have Priests and religious and other lay church leaders who are still trying to live by the “Spirit of Vat. 2”, more so on the Coasts and in Canada than in fly-over country (which is where I generally used to travel). I believe that EWTN and Catholic Answers on the radio among other great apostolates have started the turning of the tide. Please folks, let’s keep in mind that we are all human and in the time frame of Holy Mother Church, the time from the promulgation of Vat. 2 until now is a drop in the bucket.

Brenda V.

 

[rpp]

The Cafeteria, on one end of the spectrum, and…
…
The SSPX, on the other end…

Neither are faithful to the Magisterium and the Holy Father.
IMHO

But at least the SSPX are not out there killing babies. Besides, I think they are trying to get things worked out. I would expect the the SSPX to be back in full communion long before just one particular individual, such as Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi or “Sister” Joan Chitster come back.

 

[gallo]

It’s probably been said, but here goes anyway.
The Roman Catholic Church is not “protestantized” because that is an oxymoron. However, the protestant influences I see are that individuals are too much individual an not community oriented. The Church is not about the individual alone, but how he/she relates to the rest of the Church community and the broader human community. Hence the necessity of Reconciliation before receiving the Eucharist, for example. Many people will choose this or that to believe making themselves the one who defines doctrine and dogma thus bypassing the magisterium altogether.

 

[LilyM]

But at least the SSPX are not out there killing babies. Besides, I think they are trying to get things worked out. I would expect the the SSPX to be back in full communion long before just one particular individual, such as Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi or “Sister” Joan Chitster come back.

Neither were the Arians - are you suggesting they weren’t heretics or severely damaging for the Church?