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rpp
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You claim to be Catholic. However your posts show that you are about as Catholic as Richard Dawkins.
Name one or two ways the Roman Catholic Church has been protestantized
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Mike_for_Truth
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Chiltepin
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rpp
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Please, UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES pray for me. I do not need the prayers of whomever it is you are praying to. I am a Catholic Christian and therefore am immune to the prayers of whomever it is you are praying to.
Sure go ahead and insult. it is you who have attacked the Church and called her servants the equivalent of the anti-Christ. It is you who are being uncharitable. It is you who are devouring th flesh of the true Church of Christ and her servants.
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rpp
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I suspect that what you think Heaven is. and how to get there, is not the Heaven nor what is needed to get there, taught in the Scriptures. You have made that clear. For my part. I will remain obedient to Catholic Church and unlike you, I will not presume both on either God’s mercy nor any arrogant belief that I am absolutely right.
Beyond that, you are clearly someone who is simply not worth responding to any further. Nor do I thin that you will be a member here much longer. I will not respond to your baiting, insulting and heretical posts any further.
Good bye.
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Chiltepin
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…and 20 minutes later, you both failed. Oh and me too.Maybe you should both go to sleep. Oh and me too.
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Tsuwano
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It may have been true that the position of altar boy was created as a means to encourage boys to develope a vocation to the priesthood, but I fail to see how the presence of girls who are also serving at mass inhibits this from happening today. Boys, after all, are not prohibited from serving on the altar alongside their female counterparts and service is still a powerful means of promoting vocations. I agree that the Church has no authority to ordain females, but this hardly makes the concept of altar girl dubious. Girls should be encouraged to serve the Church community as well, and serving the priest at the altar is an excellent means of doing this. It does not necessarily mean that the female altar server will be pounding on the doors of the Cathedral demanding ordination, and the presence of altar girls doesn’t necessarily mean that those young men who are sensitive enough to recognize the importance of service will automatically dismiss the call to priesthood.
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Cat
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Boldface mind–I would say that anyone who thinks that the practical Church in most of America looks far more Protestant than it used to (1950, say) can’t see clearly and doesn’t know what PROTESTANTISM really is or how it looks.You’re so right about that one - and calling this a Protestanization of the faith is a completely accurate way to put it.
The theology espoused so frequently has simply become de-facto Protestant, in this and other areas. Talk of Purgatory is out - an extremely important subject, especially at a funeral, and thoughts of such used to be high on the minds of Catholic families when being parted from a loved one! (They need our Masses!)
I think a lot’s been said in this thread and I won’t go on and on. Anyone who can’t see that the practical Church in most of America looks far more Protestant than it used to (1950, say) can’t see clearly or doesn’t know what Catholicism really is - even apart from the vast changes in the liturgy, none of which were approved by the Council.
Course, I still love the Church. We’ve got our superb local Institute of Christ the King Latin Mass, with a knock-you-out killer homily every week, and places where the NO is just fine.
(The fact that daily Masses have no sermon is nowadays sometimes a blessing of a different sort.Has anybody tried to count the number of ways it’s possible to say ‘be nice to people’? That seems to be the subject of a good 80% of the sermons in the area, no joke.)
The largest number of Protestants in the United States belong to EVANGELICAL PROTESTANT churches. I was an evangelical Protestant for over 40 years before becoming Catholic. I was extremely involved, not a pew sitter. In my opinion as an ex-Protestant, virtually NOTHING in the Mass–the NO Mass, BTW–resembles ANYTHING in the modern Protestant church.
Maybe there are some resemblances to the ancient Protestant church, if the word “ancient” can be applied to any Protestant sect. Some of the mainlines have worship services that somewhat resemble a Mass.
But Mass is completely and totally different than anything Protestant. For an evangelical Protestant (the majority of U.S. Protestants, remember?), Mass is utterly foreign to what they have done in their churches. NOTHING, other than the Bible readings, is familiar to evangelical Protestants. NOTHING. There is no “Protestantization” of Catholic Churches.
Even the music that so many of you disparage–that would be called “traditional music” in evangelical Protestant churches. Even the “rock music” that is done in our Life Teen Mass would be considered archaic and old-fashioned in the evangelical churches in our city.
Did you all know that many Protestant discussions these days are about how “Catholic” the Protestant churches, are becoming?! There are quite a few preachers who are making a living denouncing the “Romanization” of the Protestant churches.
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Dicerning
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Care to compare the numbers here. How many SSPX are there verses the Cafeterias. Helpful hint one of these groups is exponentially larger than the other. In fact one group is TINY compared to the other.
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Dicerning
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Most permanent deacons I know would never consider the priesthood. As someone who is in deacon formation I assure you I have no desire to be a priest. I wouldn’t touch it with a ten foot pole.
St. Francis of Assisi was a permanent deacon. Would you call him a priest wanna be?
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Ockham
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When people make use of the term “protestantization” it normally is in context of the changes brought about from the “spirit of Vatican II”. The clearest examples of such are found by comparing the Tridentine with NO Mass. Saying Mass facing the people in the venacular and receiving Communion in hand while standing were changes Martin Luther wanted. The modernists finally implemented these ‘reforms’ four hundred years later. I don’t believe anyone is using the description of Luther/Protestant influence to suggest the NO Mass has completely deteriorated into the Evangelical worship service or whatever it is they do on Sunday mornings.
Your perspective as a former Evangelical is interesting. From the discussions on faith I’ve had with Evangelical and Fundamentalist folk it seems they are a fervently anti-Catholic crowd. Other former Evangelicals like Scott Hahn and even a blogger I just discovered (catholicknight.blogspot.com/) are inspirational in their conviction to their new faith. My mother says converts make the best Catholics.
It is worthwhile to keep the landscape of religion in America in context. Evangelicals may be the majority of Protestants, but just barely. American religions in general are in decline.religions.pewforum.org/reports This study indicates the Catholic Church is suffering the most and many believe it is due to the “protestantization” inflicted by those claiming to have the ‘spirit of Vatican II’. It’s foolish to copy something in decline.
My working theory is Evangelical, Fundamental, New Age types are short term gratification fixes to our long term desire to know God. Charismatic preachers, pop music, techno gadgets and the latest fluff may pump the individual up, but like fast food the nourishment is minimal and even harmful in large quantities. A motivational speaker can fill you up with vigor, but if your actual motivation isn’t from within then it will quickly fade away. As with any novelty, once the shine wears off the search for something bigger, brighter, and fancier commences. Moving from one worship community to another, becoming dissatisfied with one preacher and looking for another necessitates a contradiction in the purpose - to know the unchangeable God.
“I’ve seen this coming for a long time. Five years ago I was doing academic research on evangelical religion, and I was struck by just how secularised even born-again, Bible Belt Christianity had become. US Christians whom the BBC would describe as “fundamentalist” were becoming increasingly focussed on a narcissistic spiritual journey in which the figure of Jesus was sometimes little more than a disposable spirit guide or a life coach.”
blogs.telegraph.co.uk/damian_thompson/blog/2009/03/10/at_last_the_truth_about_america_its_becoming_less_religious
The handwriting is on the wall for the Evangelical movement. csmonitor.com/2009/0310/p09s01-coop.html
*"We are on the verge – within 10 years – of a major collapse of evangelical Christianity. This breakdown will follow the deterioration of the mainline Protestant world and it will fundamentally alter the religious and cultural environment in the West.
Within two generations, evangelicalism will be a house deserted of half its occupants. (Between 25 and 35 percent of Americans today are Evangelicals.) In the “Protestant” 20th century, Evangelicals flourished. But they will soon be living in a very secular and religiously antagonistic 21st century." *
What many Catholics are working to prevent is a total collapse of faith. Once Vatican II became commonly misinterpreted and “protestant” changes made in its name, the genie left the bottle. When the Mass is customized to individual needs it loses its inner strength and attraction. Life Teen Mass, folk Masses, healing Mass, whatever you need Masses dilute not only the reverence but also the relevance of worship. Once the individual’s focus leaves God and becomes the self an inevitable dismay with faith in general is likely unavoidable.
The greatest gain in American religion from the Pew Report is the “unaffiliated”. To reverse this trend in the Catholic church requires a return to its strength - that timeless consistency and adherence to age old wisdom. Blowing the spirit of Vatican II smoke out of our churches is the most accessible thing we can do to save our religion.
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palmas85
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I think the problem is that in some parishes, progressive parishes that is, a balance must be maintained. If you have four female altar servers you must have an equal number of males. If one female serves one male must serve. That in and of itself could help to stifle participation by males as for every male that serves there must be a female also, so the opportunities for males are limited…
Political correctness triumphs once again.
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angillusion
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Well, political correctness or not, I think that anything that made me want to draw myself closer to a faith and experience it is a good thing. It could just as easily drawn me to being a nun! Anyway, I have nowhere near enough knowledge to debate things differently, I just felt compelled to express how much I loved being an altar girl and how much it meant to me.
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DomineAdoroTe
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Regarding coat racks as yet to appear as an attribute of “Protestantized” Catholic churches, I regret to inform you that my parish has had several coat racks in the large “gathering space” as they call it since the renovation that occurred over 10 years ago.
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The_Theotokos
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I was merely explaining why people have a problem with it. But personally, I feel it distorts the purpose of the position. It should be noted, however, that in my Melkite tradition, no females are allowed behind the iconostasis, where the altar is, thus rendering altar girls inappropriate. I use this example because I suspect that another reason people don’t like it, is because it is a severe break from tradition.
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PeVee
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Has anyone mentioned the biggest protestant thing to creep into Mass, holding hands during the “Our Father.” When did the Church say it was okay to use this posture during Mass? It didn’t.
Another problem is people using the orens position during the “Our Father.” When did the Church tell people to do this? It didn’t.
If people are doing this on their own then we need to be reminded that in 1975 there was a Vatican ruling on another matter, but the important point was that “anything added to the Mass by personal initiative is to be repudiated.”
Next time at Mass look at the disunity of the congregation by people doing what they want during the “Our Father.” Putting your hands together has been the norm for centuries but we are letting the charismatic renewall (protestantism) seep into the Mass.
The GIRM doesn’t specify a posture during this part of the Mass, but when in doubt look to the posture of the decon if you’re not sure what posture to use. When are people going to stand on their head during the “Our Father?” That posture would be valid for those that think that since the GIRM is silent then they can do what they want.
We need some unity during this part of the Mass again.
Another problem is people using the orens position during the “Our Father.” When did the Church tell people to do this? It didn’t.
If people are doing this on their own then we need to be reminded that in 1975 there was a Vatican ruling on another matter, but the important point was that “anything added to the Mass by personal initiative is to be repudiated.”
Next time at Mass look at the disunity of the congregation by people doing what they want during the “Our Father.” Putting your hands together has been the norm for centuries but we are letting the charismatic renewall (protestantism) seep into the Mass.
The GIRM doesn’t specify a posture during this part of the Mass, but when in doubt look to the posture of the decon if you’re not sure what posture to use. When are people going to stand on their head during the “Our Father?” That posture would be valid for those that think that since the GIRM is silent then they can do what they want.
We need some unity during this part of the Mass again.
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palmas85
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I’m sure that you did.Well, political correctness or not, I think that anything that made me want to draw myself closer to a faith and experience it is a good thing. It could just as easily drawn me to being a nun! Anyway, I have nowhere near enough knowledge to debate things differently, I just felt compelled to express how much I loved being an altar girl and how much it meant to me.
That still doesn’t make it right or proper.
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angillusion
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Which is why I’m now a non-practicing Catholic.
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Paul_Folbrecht
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Your dismissive statement is off-base, Cat. I have read dozens of books on Catholic apologetics by former Protestants who go into great, great detail about there former beliefs and practices and why they came to the true faith. My wife (whom you’ve corresponded with) was a lifelong Protestant and everyone in her family still is. And like you, I live in America, a very Protestant nation, and rub elbows with many of them nearly daily.
What you seem to be saying in this and other statements is that the Novus Ordo Mass is not exactly like a Protestant service. Yes, we know that. And your point that evan/fundie services are VERY different is well-taken. I’ve been to some too, and you’re right, it’s nothing like any Mass - it’s more like going to a ‘concert’. It’s entertainment designed to have a spiritual content, and that’s all.
Here (again) are the specifics of what people are saying:
When the Protesters split from the Church, they aimed to ‘destroy the Mass’ (Luther). They changed a great, great deal, and to them - RIGHTLY - what they came up with was completely different. What did they do?
- They eliminated the use of a liturgical language.
- They eliminated the posture of the priest facing Christ on the altar with the people.
- They eliminated all references to a ‘sacrifice’, making it instead only a ‘meal’.
- They eliminated prayers and gestures that express the utmost humility of man before God, regarding such things as ‘demeaning’.
Furthermore, it is well-known that the architects of the new Mass itself freely offered the information that it was designed to be more ‘welcoming’ to Protestants!
For some of us - such an attitude is madness. You welcome those outside of full communion with the Church with open arms and by explaining the stunning beauty in her timeless liturgy and beliefs, not by changing any of those things.
What exactly are they listening to, then? Gangsta rap? Metal?
I do know something of that. I once engaged a Protestant minister who, after the death of John Paul II, was spamming newsgroups with his filth explaining how our beloved pontiff was in Hell for following ‘traditions of men’ and trying to ‘earn his salvation’. On his website was a section about those ‘betraying’ the evangelical community by engaging in dialog with the ‘pagan Romans’.
The coward broke off debate with me very quickly, as almost all of them do.
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