National identity vs. Christian brotherhood

[Expatreprocedit]

I ask this question here because it is motivated by the current crisis in the Ukraine, although it could apply in any situation where Christians are politically and militarily opposed to other Christians. Leaving aside for the moment the complicating factor of the division and conflicts between churches (Orthodox Moscow patriachate vs. Orthodox Kiev Patriarchate vs. Ukrainian Greek Catholic), is it seemly for Christians who share the same faith to be in conflict with each other over political dominance? To focus my question a little better: for example, should a devout Ukrainian Orthodox believer care that much whether the Ukraine is officially politically autonomous or whether it is closely tied to Russia, which is a largely Orthodox country? Where should national pride and political independence rank on the scale of values for a Christian? Are those values worth (potentially) militarily engaging a country made up largely of co-religionists? I guess those are several questions, sorry.

 

[Nacho45]

I ask this question here because it is motivated by the current crisis in the Ukraine, although it could apply in any situation where Christians are politically and militarily opposed to other Christians. Leaving aside for the moment the complicating factor of the division and conflicts between churches (Orthodox Moscow patriachate vs. Orthodox Kiev Patriarchate vs. Ukrainian Greek Catholic), is it seemly for Christians who share the same faith to be in conflict with each other over political dominance? To focus my question a little better: for example, should a devout Ukrainian Orthodox believer care that much whether the Ukraine is officially politically autonomous or whether it is closely tied to Russia, which is a largely Orthodox country? Where should national pride and political independence rank on the scale of values for a Christian? Are those values worth (potentially) militarily engaging a country made up largely of co-religionists? I guess those are several questions, sorry.

I have learned through many years of possessing a strong national political streak that it is meaningless. Focus on your faith shared by your brothers and sisters. Work within your community to make it better, but give up the national identity. Nations fall as mine is doing right now. It once bothered me greatly, but no longer. My faith and my family is what’s important. Let the ideologues destroy one another.

 

[Adonia]

The reality is that each country is led by secular governments and in this case in past years the Russians were not very kind to the people of Ukraine and to me religion is a secondary component.

For example, I would not take kindly to living under Mexican rule even though we both are both in the main overwhelming Christianity based countries. So to answer your question, I have no problem with Christians being at odds with one another over the secular government.

 

[Ontheway]

I ask this question here because it is motivated by the current crisis in the Ukraine, although it could apply in any situation where Christians are politically and militarily opposed to other Christians. Leaving aside for the moment the complicating factor of the division and conflicts between churches (Orthodox Moscow patriachate vs. Orthodox Kiev Patriarchate vs. Ukrainian Greek Catholic), is it seemly for Christians who share the same faith to be in conflict with each other over political dominance? To focus my question a little better: for example, should a devout Ukrainian Orthodox believer care that much whether the Ukraine is officially politically autonomous or whether it is closely tied to Russia, which is a largely Orthodox country? Where should national pride and political independence rank on the scale of values for a Christian? Are those values worth (potentially) militarily engaging a country made up largely of co-religionists? I guess those are several questions, sorry.

The answer depends on where you are sitting. If you are like me, sitting in a comfortable chair in a place that is not facing political and religious turmoil, secure in the knowledge that no one will fire me or set my house on fire for belonging to my religion, then the answer is obvious. To me, national politics don’t matter that much because we are not being invade by Canada, for example.
If on the other hand, I am living in a small town in central Ukraine, I am a Greek Catholic, and have clear recollection of what transpired in the Ukraine during the last fifty years, seeing what is going on around me now will certainly evoke a response that is national, political and religious.
When the Russian orthodox church comes in to shut down my church and convert it to an orthodox one, it matters. And that is what is happening to many Ukrainians.

 

[Nelka]

I don’t see how this has anything to do with religion.

Just because there may be different religions on each side it doesn’t mean that is what the motivation is.

 

[Expatreprocedit]

The answer depends on where you are sitting. If you are like me, sitting in a comfortable chair in a place that is not facing political and religious turmoil, secure in the knowledge that no one will fire me or set my house on fire for belonging to my religion, then the answer is obvious. To me, national politics don’t matter that much because we are not being invade by Canada, for example.
If on the other hand, I am living in a small town in central Ukraine, I am a Greek Catholic, and have clear recollection of what transpired in the Ukraine during the last fifty years, seeing what is going on around me now will certainly evoke a response that is national, political and religious.
When the Russian orthodox church comes in to shut down my church and convert it to an orthodox one, it matters. And that is what is happening to many Ukrainians.

You make a very good point, and one that did occur to me. I, like you, am sitting comfortably in the middle of country that is pretty secure (well, unless we think about economic security- but that’s a different discussion). So, yes, it is very easy for me to raise this question.

Still, I am struck by how the questions I have raised don’t even seem to occur to those in the throes of nationalism. It just seems to be assumed that the cause of nationalism trumps consderations of Christian solidarity. I still find this troublesome.

 

[Expatreprocedit]

I don’t see how this has anything to do with religion.

Just because there may be different religions on each side it doesn’t mean that is what the motivation is.

Uh, my problem is precisely that religious motivations are being trumped by political ones.

 

[Ontheway]

I don’t see how this has anything to do with religion.

Just because there may be different religions on each side it doesn’t mean that is what the motivation is.

Your objection is more than reasonable, considered outside of any concrete context. The context in Ukraine is very complex however. During the last few centuries the population of what is now Ukraine, (and it was never an independent entity in modern times) has undergone a number of religious changes forced upon it by neighboring states that controlled parts of the territory. Roman Catholic Poland and Austria pulled them one way, the Muslim Ottoman empire pulled in another. The Russians decided that a wholesale conversion to Orthodoxy (at bayonet point) was the best way to control the Ukrainians.

Facing that possibility again, these folks in Ukraine are a bit jittery.
Once again, our vantage point in the bleachers is not exactly the same as that on the goal line.