Nativity - 2 ?

[cyber_priest]

This is a continuation of ‘Nativity - 1 ?’

Then Herod, sent for the wisemen secretly, and accurately to the last point, ascertained from them, the time of the appearing of the star. He then, sent them to Bethlehem, saying, ‘Go and search for the child(not baby) carefully and diligently’ - Matthew 2:7-8(AMP)

Notice that, Herod called Jesus a child and not a baby. In those days, there was no fast means of transportation. Even though, both the shepherds and the wisemen, had seen the very same star, around the same time, they could not possibly visit Jesus at the same time. The shepherds saw the star, from the Bethlehem area, which was in the same neighborhood as the manger, but the wisemen saw the very same star, in the east, very far away from Bethlehem. So, unlike the shepherds, who were nearby in Bethlehem, the wisemen had to travel for many months from the east, before finally reaching Bethlehem. And by the time, they arrived in Bethlehem, Jesus was no longer in the manger and no longer a baby. Jesus was now a child, living in a house with His family.

Then Herod, when he realized, that he had been misled by the wisemen, was furiously enraged, and he sent and put to death, all male children(not babies) in Bethlehem and in all that territory, who were two years old and under, reckoning according to the date, which he had investigated diligently and had learned exactly, from the wisemen - Matthew 2:16(AMP)

By accurately establishing, when the star appeared, which announced the birth of Jesus, Herod was able to calculate, how long it took the wisemen, to travel from the east to Bethlehem. Now, based on the time, it took the wisemen to travel, Herod figured, that Jesus, who had been a newly born baby, when the star appeared, was no longer a baby, but a child. Herod reckoned, that Jesus had to be, at the most a two year old child. This is why, in his bloody attempt to eliminate Jesus, Herod ordered the killing of all male children, two years and under.

Happy Christmas
www.deathandlife.org

 

[chaunceygardner]

An astute observation. Even back as a child, when I heard or read the Gospel of Matthew, it puzzled me that the Magi came to “the house” where the Holy Family was staying, which did not fit the images we saw of the Magi appearing at the stable.

Your timeline also makes perfect sense in regards to when things happened and the response of Herod.

The problem I think we have is when we combine the two Nativity stories, which are very different from one another and in some aspects contradictory. We also tend to suspend logic (i.e. realistic travel time for the Magi) in trying to compress the story into something that fits our own needs and preconceptions (like celebrating the Epiphany and adoration a few days after Christmas rather than months later!).

Thanks for the interesting post.

 

[ALLGIRLS]

Maybe it’s just me (speaking as a Mom), but I consider kids under 2 babies. Technically (per current child developement terms) they’re “toddlers” after age 1, they’re still cute, chubby little babies until they start to lose all that baby fat and talk in complete sentences. The term “child” can mean any age from birth to adulthood (in the U.S., a 17 year old is a “child”, as is an infant, i.e.: “I have 7 **children **who range in age from 17 down to 6 months”). So I don’t think the terms are meant to tell us anything about Jesus’ age. Obviously, Herod thought Jesus must be 2 or under, based on the timing of the starts appearance, when ordering the slaughter of the Innocents, so he wasn’ta “big kid” by any means.

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[chaunceygardner]

Maybe it’s just me (speaking as a Mom), but I consider kids under 2 babies. Technically (per current child developement terms) they’re “toddlers” after age 1, they’re still cute, chubby little babies until they start to lose all that baby fat and talk in complete sentences. The term “child” can mean any age from birth to adulthood (in the U.S., a 17 year old is a “child”, as is an infant, i.e.: “I have 7 **children **who range in age from 17 down to 6 months”). So I don’t think the terms are meant to tell us anything about Jesus’ age. Obviously, Herod thought Jesus must be 2 or under, based on the timing of the starts appearance, when ordering the slaughter of the Innocents, so he wasn’ta “big kid” by any means.

In Christ,

Ellen

I wonder if the difference may be between the words that translate to “infant” vs. “child”? You are correct that even a one day old is a child, but we usually don’t use that term. I am curious about what terms were used in the oldest Greek texts of Matthew?

I think the combination of the time necessary to travel during that time, the use of words that indicate a child other than an infant, and Herod’s instructions, do indicate that the Magi did not arrive shortly after the birth. The other reason “house” is used rather than “manger” or “stable” is simply that Matthew’s Gospel says nothing about the circumstances of the birth: No census, no travel from Nazareth to Bethlehem, no stable, no inn, no shepherds. If you read this account you could easily believe that Joseph lived in or around Bethlehem and that Jesus was born in His hometown. Only after returning from Egypt does Joseph take his family to Nazareth. Also, if the possibility existed that Jesus was NOT in Bethlehem (had “returned” to Nazareth as in Luke) then Herod would not have limited his instructions to just the children of Bethlehem.

 

[jakasaki]

This is a continuation of ‘Nativity - 1 ?’

Then Herod, sent for the wisemen secretly, and accurately to the last point, ascertained from them, the time of the appearing of the star. He then, sent them to Bethlehem, saying, ‘Go and search for the child(not baby) carefully and diligently’ - Matthew 2:7-8(AMP)

Notice that, Herod called Jesus a child and not a baby. In those days, there was no fast means of transportation. Even though, both the shepherds and the wisemen, had seen the very same star, around the same time, they could not possibly visit Jesus at the same time. The shepherds saw the star, from the Bethlehem area, which was in the same neighborhood as the manger, but the wisemen saw the very same star, in the east, very far away from Bethlehem. So, unlike the shepherds, who were nearby in Bethlehem, the wisemen had to travel for many months from the east, before finally reaching Bethlehem. And by the time, they arrived in Bethlehem, Jesus was no longer in the manger and no longer a baby. Jesus was now a child, living in a house with His family.

Then Herod, when he realized, that he had been misled by the wisemen, was furiously enraged, and he sent and put to death, all male children(not babies) in Bethlehem and in all that territory, who were two years old and under, reckoning according to the date, which he had investigated diligently and had learned exactly, from the wisemen - Matthew 2:16(AMP)

By accurately establishing, when the star appeared, which announced the birth of Jesus, Herod was able to calculate, how long it took the wisemen, to travel from the east to Bethlehem. Now, based on the time, it took the wisemen to travel, Herod figured, that Jesus, who had been a newly born baby, when the star appeared, was no longer a baby, but a child. Herod reckoned, that Jesus had to be, at the most a two year old child. This is why, in his bloody attempt to eliminate Jesus, Herod ordered the killing of all male children, two years and under.

Happy Christmas
www.deathandlife.org

Wow ~ getting banned after 4 posts ~ way to go!!!

OK - I suppose this thread will fall into the abyss…

 

[rev_kevin]

This is a continuation of ‘Nativity - 1 ?’

Then Herod, sent for the wisemen secretly, and accurately to the last point, ascertained from them, the time of the appearing of the star. He then, sent them to Bethlehem, saying, ‘Go and search for the child(not baby) carefully and diligently’ - Matthew 2:7-8(AMP)

Notice that, Herod called Jesus a child and not a baby. In those days, there was no fast means of transportation. Even though, both the shepherds and the wisemen, had seen the very same star, around the same time, they could not possibly visit Jesus at the same time. The shepherds saw the star, from the Bethlehem area, which was in the same neighborhood as the manger, but the wisemen saw the very same star, in the east, very far away from Bethlehem. So, unlike the shepherds, who were nearby in Bethlehem, the wisemen had to travel for many months from the east, before finally reaching Bethlehem. And by the time, they arrived in Bethlehem, Jesus was no longer in the manger and no longer a baby. Jesus was now a child, living in a house with His family.

Then Herod, when he realized, that he had been misled by the wisemen, was furiously enraged, and he sent and put to death, all male children(not babies) in Bethlehem and in all that territory, who were two years old and under, reckoning according to the date, which he had investigated diligently and had learned exactly, from the wisemen - Matthew 2:16(AMP)

By accurately establishing, when the star appeared, which announced the birth of Jesus, Herod was able to calculate, how long it took the wisemen, to travel from the east to Bethlehem. Now, based on the time, it took the wisemen to travel, Herod figured, that Jesus, who had been a newly born baby, when the star appeared, was no longer a baby, but a child. Herod reckoned, that Jesus had to be, at the most a two year old child. This is why, in his bloody attempt to eliminate Jesus, Herod ordered the killing of all male children, two years and under.

Happy Christmas
www.deathandlife.org

I have just done a sermon today on this very subject. Now the Bible doesn’t say how many wise men there were. We get the number 3 from 3 gifts that were presented to Jesus. Also the Bible doesn’t say their means of travil. It could have been by camel, horse, or on foot. Now doing some research I found that tradition says that the wise men came from the far Eastern Land probably from a place called Parthia.
If you notice when the Angel appeared to the shepherds in the field the Angel told them to look for a baby wrapped in cloth lying in a manger. This is quite different from what is said about the wise men. It says that they entered a house where the child and his mother Mary were living. Now a child is not yet the age of 3 and a youth of noble birth. So if the wise men traviled from Parthia in the far East they would only travil a distance of 5 to 7 miles a day, taking into account they may have stayed in one place for several days letting their animals and themselves rest. This was not uncommon. So I believe that Jesus was no less then a year old and not more then 2 years old. Possibly 1 1/2 years to be safe. Also the Nativity is not at all the kind of place Jesus was born in. A stable back then was a cave where animals were kept and the manger was a feeding trough carved into the stone walls of the stable. Now just last night I was watching a documentary on the place where Jesus was born. It was on a religion channel but the name I can.t remember but I do know it was a Catholic channel. They conquer what I have just said about the birth place of Jesus and the even showed it. So I do agree with you on this subject matter.