Nativity scene

[rev_kevin]

I can see how you might say that a Nativity scene is an incomplete or differently juxtaposed version of the events of the Gospel, but you seem hung up on this idea that historical correctness is essential for inspiring our devotion. If this is the case, you need to promptly rid yourself of anything which doesn’t depict Jesus as a middle easterner, as he was not European in appearance. Must we use something “incorrect” to inspire our devotion? You must also rid yourself of any English Bibles you have in your possession and instead read the Bible from large vellum scrolls written in Hebrew (for the OT) or else papyrus written in Greek for the NT. There was not English at the time of Christ and the Apostles, so it is not correct to use it. Must we use things which are not correct to inspire our devotion?

-ACEGC

Sorry to disagree with you on this one. I’m not the one who keeps talking about something being incorrect to inspire our devotion. You are the one who keeps bringing it up. As I said before, if it inspires you the so be it.
If the English Bibles are incorrect then all who use the English Bible must get rid of them according to you.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Ok lets see how the Bible puts it and the way I teach it. Luke 2:6 says, “And while they were there, the time came for her baby to be born. She gave birth to her first child, a son. She wrapped him snugly in strips of cloth and laid him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the village inn. That night some shepherds were in the fields outside the village, guarding their flocks of sheep. Suddenly, an angel of the Lord appeared among them, and the radiance of the Lord’s glory surrounded them. They were terribly frightened, but the angel reasurred them…When the angels had returned to heaven, the shepherds said to eachother, ‘Come on, let’s go to Bethlehem! Let’s see this wonderful thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about.’ They ran to the village and found Mary and Joseph. And there was the baby, lying in the manger…”

Then I go into Matthew 2 abolut the wise men. “Once again the star appeared to them, guiding them to Bethlehem. It went ahead of them and stopped over the place where the child was…They entered the house where the child and his mother, Mary, were, and they fell down before him and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasure chests and gave him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.”

See Jesus is believed to be about one or two years old when the wise men found him. I teach it the way the Bible says it happened. Mary, Joseph, baby Jesus and the shepherds were present right after the birth and the wise men came a year or so later.

I’m not disputing that. What I was saying is that the Nativity Scene isn’t mean to project one specific moment in time, but to encapsulate the entire nativity story in one presentation. Icons have been done that way. Its just another way of telling an entire story in one scene, whether as an icon, or a depiction using figurines and statues.

 

[jmcrae]

Dunno if ALL Catholics do that…I mean, we’ve once had a creche (back in the Philippines this was) and all the figures are glued in to the stable so there’s no way of taking them out. Oddly enough, our creche did have the magi, but no shepherds.

My memory may be getting a bit clunky here, but if I remember correctly, there’s no St. Joseph as well! Only Mary, the Infant, the magi, and an animal or two.

This was the one they did at the Church?

 

[LilyM]

Y’know, off tangent here, but it’s occurred to me that this year we haven’t had the usual ‘Christmas trees are evil because pagans used to worship trees’ thread from our friend tabcom. Kinda miss that crazy dude.

 

[patrick457]

This was the one they did at the Church?

Er, no, our house. That was the figurine one we had (and it wasn’t big).
We once also had another one made out of cardboard (which is basically a pop-up) and even then you couldn’t just tear out the problematic magi or the angels off it.

 

[KathleenGee]

I was at a Jewish home this morning…Jewish blue table cloth celebrating Hannukah and the Christmas season…humanist Jews. Love them.

I also like hearing about the people who keep their Christmas decorations up all year round.

It is good to hear about Bible fundamentalists now beginning to look at art and environment to see their catechetical use in additional means in promoting the Word of God.

All of creation in all its nuances praises God!

 

[patrick457]

Y’know, off tangent here, but it’s occurred to me that this year we haven’t had the usual ‘Christmas trees are evil because pagans used to worship trees’ thread from our friend tabcom. Kinda miss that crazy dude.

I kinda remember his thread from two-three years ago, but did that actually become a yearly CAF tradition or something?

Wait…‘tradition’? Does that mean tabcom actually performed a ‘tradition of men’?

 

[jmcrae]

I kinda remember his thread from two-three years ago, but did that actually become a yearly CAF tradition or something?

Wait…‘tradition’? Does that mean tabcom actually performed a ‘tradition of men’?

HMMM, maybe that’s why he quit - he realized he was doing something the same way every time, at a particular time of the year - hey, is that a “tradition” or a “ritual”?

 

[edward_george]

Sorry to disagree with you on this one. I’m not the one who keeps talking about something being incorrect to inspire our devotion. You are the one who keeps bringing it up. As I said before, if it inspires you the so be it.
If the English Bibles are incorrect then all who use the English Bible must get rid of them according to you.

That’s the point I’m trying to make. By your logic, “incorrect” means “historically inaccurate.” You keep saying that Nativities are incorrect (and what do you propose we do instead?), and by your logic, if we take it to its extremes and apply it to other things, then we have to get rid of English Bibles–they were not available to the first century Church, so why should we use them now?

-ACEGC

 

[rev_kevin]

A year or so? Why? The Bible says Herod ordered children under the age of TWO to be killed, it makes more sense to believe that it was two years after. To say one year later is as inaccurate as saying they were there on the night.

Believe it or not, we DO read the Gospels too, and we DO, even the children, assuming they’re not totally unschooled, know that the Wise Men weren’t there at the exact same time as the shepherds. That much is obvious even on the face of the Gospels.

But nonetheless the Wise Men are included in Nativity scenes because they are an integral part of the Christmas story, even if they weren’t present on the night of the event. It wouldn’t be right to exclude such an important episode from the Christmas story simply because it didn’t happen on the night. But I suppose you must exclude it, since it wasn’t contemporaneous. And thereby miss out on much.

If you’ve been Catholic, you’re no doubt aware of the Stations of the Cross. Different episodes from the Passion, all depicted and visible on the Church walls at one and the same time. By your logic you must believe that we are teaching kids that Christ’s Judgement by Pilate happened at exactly the same time as Simon of Cyrene assisting Jesus, which was the same time as His nailing to the Cross and the same time as His burial, because all are visible at the same time.

I used the Station of the Cross because it shows that it happened in order with nothing put in that is not to be there.

Now for the Nativity there is a order also. 1. Joseph, Mary had a baby in a stable in Bethlehem and layed him in a manger. 2. The angels appeared to the shephers in the field and they went to see the baby (Jesus) the day he was born lying in a manger. 3. The wise men were following a star and showed up in Jerusalem during the reign of Herod and were asking about the new born king of the Jews. 4. This was the first time Herod heard about Jesus and wanted the wise men, who have already traveled about 500 miles, to go to Bethlehem to find Jeus and tell him where he was before they left to go home. 5. Once again the star appeared to them and guided them to Bethlehem where it stopped over the “house” weree the child (Jesus) was with his mother (Mary). (Here we see Jesus is a child and no longer in a manger or called a baby). 6. The fell down and worshiped the child (Jesus) and opened the treasuer chest of gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. 7. They then left to go back to their home land which is about a 500 mile journey. 8. Here Herod did not want any child killed yet. Now a angel appeared to Joseph and told him to take the child (Jesus) and Mary to Egypt because Herod was going to have Jesus killed. They left that night. 9. Herod was mad because the wise men didn’t return to him to tell him where Jesus was so at this time he ordered all the male children 2 years and under in and around Bethlehem to be killed because the wise men told him the star first appeared to them about 2 years earlier.
By this account the wise men were not at the manger and Jesus was around 2 years old when the did meet him.

 

[rev_kevin]

If you don’t add them in until Epiphany (which is what Catholics do), the people will understand that there was a period of time between the birth of Jesus and the arrival of the Wise Men.

How do you do your Nativity Scene? Because at our house, we always read the Bible stories that go with each of the figures, as we are placing them into the scene. Everyone present knows what the Bible says about it.

My wife puts it up and I have no say so about it. She has the wise men there.

 

[rev_kevin]

That’s the point I’m trying to make. By your logic, “incorrect” means “historically inaccurate.” You keep saying that Nativities are incorrect (and what do you propose we do instead?), and by your logic, if we take it to its extremes and apply it to other things, then we have to get rid of English Bibles–they were not available to the first century Church, so why should we use them now?

-ACEGC

Personally I don’t care how you have your Nativity Scene. Now I’m not giving any advice or trying to change anything but since you asked “what do you propose we do instead” here it is. We have the Nativity Scene in a cave like structure with Jesus in a manger that is built into the wall of the cave. Then we have Mary by the manger and Joseph gathering hay to keep it fresh for the baby and shepherds there at the entrance of the cave looking in to see the baby. Then we have part 2 of the Nativity Scene where the 3 or more if you like, Magi or wise men bowing to Jesus with Mary by his side in the door way of a house presenting the gifts to Jesus.
You asked and I gave. Now remember this is not advice nor am I trying to change anything about the Nativity. I only stated it is portrayed incorrectly. Nothing more and nothing less. It has nothing to do with anyone’s spiritual devotion, loosing eternal life, it being a sin or anything like that. I have just been noticing that in front yards they have the wise men there from the first day they put it up, the store shelves have them that way also. Go to any Walmart, Target, most every store and you will see them being sold that way, Mary, Joseph, baby Jesus, and the 3 wise men and no shepherds to be seen.

Now as far as the English Bibles you should bring that to the attention of the Pope and let him know you want all English Bibles banned and the reason you want them banned. Telling me will do nothing.

 

[rev_kevin]

That’s the point I’m trying to make. By your logic, “incorrect” means “historically inaccurate.” You keep saying that Nativities are incorrect (and what do you propose we do instead?), and by your logic, if we take it to its extremes and apply it to other things, then we have to get rid of English Bibles–they were not available to the first century Church, so why should we use them now?

-ACEGC

No Biblical inaccurate. Now historically inaccurate.

 

[patrick457]

Before this gets buried:

Well, first of all, I would say this (and I’m Catholic!): the Stations of the Cross is not a detailed, accurate log of every step Jesus took while on the way to Golgotha. After all, it was a devotion that gradually developed a few centuries after the fact. Heck, we don’t even know whether the Via Dolorosa in modern Jerusalem is the correct street or how many times Jesus fell (whether He fell three or seven times) or whether Veronica was actually present (it was only in the Late Middle Ages that Veronica became associated with the Passion)! The concern of the Stations of the Cross is not accuracy in history, I believe you know that.

As for the Wise Men: I believe the whole confusion may rise if you don’t know about how people produced works of art back in say, Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages. In medieval art, it was actually a common convention to conflate separate scenes into one picture. So you have images of the crucifixion where Jesus is being speared in the side while being offered ‘vinegar’, or more correctly, sour wine or posca (something that happened while He was still alive according to the Gospels) while the soldiers gamble for His clothes and break the legs of the two criminals and while the dead rise out of their tombs. One curious case in England even shows Jesus already being stabbed and offered His last drink while still being nailed to the cross!
In some depictions, you even have the carrying of the cross on the same frame as the Crucifixion (so what, there’s like, two Jesuses now? ). At the most extreme, ALL the events of the Passion of Jesus are all conflated together into one panel! I believe this is the similar case here: the magi being shown together with the shepherds and angels is a carryover of an old artistic convention that showed separate but quite related events in one scene. Sure, some may take it the wrong way nowadays (now that we emphasize treating individual scenes separately), but that is where explaining things come in.

BTW, I am encouraging you to visit my other thread…I too am interested in historical accuracy and we can talk about it there a lot.

 

[Bluegoat]

Personally I don’t care how you have your Nativity Scene. Now I’m not giving any advice or trying to change anything but since you asked “what do you propose we do instead” here it is. We have the Nativity Scene in a cave like structure with Jesus in a manger that is built into the wall of the cave. Then we have Mary by the manger and Joseph gathering hay to keep it fresh for the baby and shepherds there at the entrance of the cave looking in to see the baby. Then we have part 2 of the Nativity Scene where the 3 or more if you like, Magi or wise men bowing to Jesus with Mary by his side in the door way of a house presenting the gifts to Jesus.

But other than the cave, that is what the Nativity scene is doing. It just puts it all in one frame, like a tableaux.

 

[KathleenGee]

Bluegoat,

Is this a picture of your church? It is beautiful.

 

[JustaServant]

My wife puts it up and I have no say so about it. She has the wise men there.

You ever hear of live and let live? I mean if you had a Nativity with three wise men, a drummer boy, cows, chickens, cats, dogs, and a T-Rex, does the world come to an end? Are you ‘in sin’? For cryin’ out loud my wife and daughter have been ‘collecting’ nativity scenes (which necesstates a separate storage box labled ‘fragile’). One is a Nativity scene with SNOWMEN!!! Back in my fundamentalist days I would have had a fit. But now? Silly, cute, and not worth fighting about.
So ah…give your wife a hug, simmer down, and enjoy.

 

[Bluegoat]

Bluegoat,

Is this a picture of your church? It is beautiful.

Thanks! Yes it is. We just got the garland up this week. We didn’t have it last year so neither of my girls remember it and they were quite entranced with it (though not enough to stop the younger one from screaming in the line and trying to throw herself under the communion rail).

 

[KathleenGee]

Very nice…glad your church could decorate more…the evergreens really enhance the Christmas spirit…

My nativity scene always has evergreens around it…we all do …

 

[rev_kevin]

You ever hear of live and let live? I mean if you had a Nativity with three wise men, a drummer boy, cows, chickens, cats, dogs, and a T-Rex, does the world come to an end? Are you ‘in sin’? For cryin’ out loud my wife and daughter have been ‘collecting’ nativity scenes (which necesstates a separate storage box labled ‘fragile’). One is a Nativity scene with SNOWMEN!!! Back in my fundamentalist days I would have had a fit. But now? Silly, cute, and not worth fighting about.
So ah…give your wife a hug, simmer down, and enjoy.

Well I never said the world would come to a end if you have the Nativity Scene with wise men and all. I don’t know where you are getting this from. If you would read my post 109 you will see that I never said it was a sin, that you would lose eternal life, your spiritual life would be harmed or that you can’t be inspired by it. I don’t have anything to simmer dowm about, I mearly said that according to Scripture the Nativity Scene in front yards, the one
s sold in stores are incorrect. There were no wise men present there it was the shepherds. Its not a fight to get things changed about it. Its just a simple yes or no, Is it portrayed according to Scripture. The simple answer is no its not. That is all I was looking for a honest answer about it, but instead I get all kind of answers ranging from its only art, its designed for children not adults, its insperational, they mingled it all together, to loosing eternal life. I wanted to see how far this would go, what kind of responses I would get and what would be said about someone who says its not according to Scripture and protrayed incorrectly. Well I found out.