Natural Evil / Natural Selection

[kildare]

My question has nothing to do with evolution and origins, but rather in the here and now - the natural world and its inherent violence and brutality. Anyway I don’t think anyone disagrees with natural selection in the wild. The survivors do pass on their genes. The losers do not. Nature does not appear to be very compassionate, but it does appear to be just, at least in this regard.

My faith tells me that the violence, or the evil, is a mystery beyond my understanding as a simple human being. We are asked to desist from imparting evil, however evil/pain/violence is allowed to reign in the universe. From great supernovae to larvae being eaten alive by the grubs of another species, from the inside out, there is a lot going on that is unpleasant. However without it our universe wouldnt work. Why though the painful route?

So how do we square this with God’s will. Is it because God wants the physical forces t have freedom necessary to create life, and that in itself will create a greater good?

What do we, as christians/catholics or Jews and muslims, say about natural evil?

 

[AntiTheist]

I’m not a believer, but I’m going to address some of what you say anway because you raise good points.

In the first place, what you’re describing is part of the set of facts that seriously undermines the whole “intelligent design” business. There are actually people out there who propose that this universe was “designed” by an all-powerful, all-good being – and designed with humans in mind! This means that this intelligent being decided to create a universe that existed for billions and billions of years before people showed up in the last 70,000 years or so (that’s such a small percentage that I can’t calculate it), with billions of stars experiencing supernovae, blackholes, destructive meteor showers…a universe that appears mostly hostile to the existence of life…a universe in which life can exist in some forms on some planets some of the time (microbes on Mars and likely elsewhere), including on Earth when we’re not undergoing one of our not infrequent Ice Ages, and where life exists by feeing on life in exactly the way you describe, with creatures living on death and painful destruction, on a planet where 99% of all species that have ever existed are extinct.

That’s some design, eh? If I didn’t know any better, I’d be inclined to say that those facts are better explained by a completely natural universe developing without any particular guiding intelligence, a universe that obeys only natural laws and doesn’t give two quips about the existence of humans or any other species on any particular planet.

So how do we square this with God’s will. Is it because God wants the physical forces t have freedom necessary to create life, and that in itself will create a greater good?

Religionists are in the business of creating stories that explain away all of these facts. To be sure, any halfway-creative person can make up an unfalsifiable story that will make everything “square” with the rest of just about any myth.

But there’s a more fundamental question here than “how can we make up a story to make this set of facts fit with the story we already accept?” The more fundamental question is, “Do these facts actually support the premise behind the story? Are there any facts that support the premise behind the story?”

 

[tonyrey]

In the first place, what you’re describing is part of the set of facts that seriously undermines the whole “intelligent design” business. There are actually people out there who propose that this universe was “designed” by an all-powerful, all-good being – and designed with humans in mind!

You seem to be implying that **the sole purpose **of designing the universe is the existence of human beings - which is by no means self-evident nor necessary.

This means that this intelligent being decided to create a universe that existed for billions and billions of years before people showed up in the last 70,000 years or so (that’s such a small percentage that I can’t calculate it)…

You are applying human notions of economy to the creation of an entire universe! Do you expect to have instant Creation?

with billions of stars experiencing supernovae, blackholes, destructive meteor showers…a universe that appears mostly hostile to the existence of life…

Would the non-existence of supernovae, blackholes, destructive meteor showers satisfy your demands? Can you explain how they could be prevented?

a universe in which life can exist in some forms on some planets some of the time (microbes on Mars and likely elsewhere), including on Earth when we’re not undergoing one of our not infrequent Ice Ages…

How widespread would life have to be to satisfy your expectations? How would you eliminate Ice Ages?

and where life exists by feeding on life in exactly the way you describe…

Can you devise a superior system in which advanced forms of life can exist on inanimate sustances?

with creatures living on death and painful destruction, on a planet where 99% of all species that have ever existed are extinct.

Can you devise a superior system in which life is eternal, pain-free and accident-free?
What percentage of inhabited planets would suffice for there to be Design?

That’s some design, eh? If I didn’t know any better, I’d be inclined to say that those facts are better explained by a completely natural universe developing without any particular guiding intelligence…

Is the existence of guiding intelligences on earth adequately explained by completely purposeless combinations of molecules?

.

… a universe that obeys only natural laws and doesn’t give two quips about the existence of humans or any other species on any particular planet.

How do you explain the fact that there are persons who give far more than two quips? Sheer chance?

So how do we square this with God’s will. Is it because God wants the physical forces to have freedom necessary to create life, and that in itself will create a greater good?

Do you regard life as valueless?

Religionists are in the business of creating stories that explain away all of these facts. To be sure, any halfway-creative person can make up an unfalsifiable story that will make everything “square” with the rest of just about any myth.

Materialists are in the business of creating stories that explain away all of these facts! How is the hypothesis of “a completely natural universe developing without any particular guiding intelligence” falsifiable? Why is science not “a halfway-creative” activity? Can it explain truth, goodness, freedom, beauty and love?

But there’s a more fundamental question here than “how can we make up a story to make this set of facts fit with the story we already accept?” The more fundamental question is, “Do these facts actually support the premise behind the story? Are there any facts that support the premise behind the story?”

Precisely the same questions can be asked about the materialist’s story!