Natural Family Planning Classes- too expensive!

[agapewolf]

Every single act must intend for children (That is the primary purpose and you must always intend for that to be your primary reason. Nothing wrong with also being horny, etc.) That is what it means to be open to life. The fact that you may not conceive is just a possible side effect.

Please stop with the “You are in serious error against the church’s teachings here.” stuff. It is just like a child picking up his football and saying I’m going home cause you are just mean.

No it isn’t. You are in serious error against church teaching, and I can say that freely because I have the catechism and documents to back it up.

You are interpreting a document incorrectly that is not in line with the church.

You are making serious flaws in logic, and you have yet to address any of the real arguments made here, instead you are just repeating yourself, using the same vocabulary.

Being open to life means doing nothing to frustrate the act. It does NOT mean that one must intend for an act of intercourse during the infertile time to conceive, nor does it mean that one can’t abstain during the fertile time.

You are the one not in line with church teaching.

 

[agapewolf]

You are guessing here about the time statement. Time could be referring to the natural sterility that comes with menopause. Certain defects most likely referrs to medical conditions which render a woman sterile.

The line you quote is followed up by "so long as they are subordinated to the primary end and so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved. ". Please explain how the couple can be “subordinated to the primary end” when they are doing their best to thwart it?

It already has been explained numerous times. An NFP couple are not doing anything to thwart it. Thwarting it would be to sterilize it some way with ABC.

Not having sex is doing nothing. It is a non-action. It isn’t thwarting anything.

 

[wanner47]

If the primary purpose is not possible and you are not doing anything to frustrate it, then the secondary purposes are always valid. If the woman is pregnant/infertile, etc. then it is not possible to frustrate the primary purpose.

Exactly! During a woman’s infertile periods, the primary purpose is not always possible and a couple does nothing to frustrate the act during those times. Likewise, if a couple practices virtuous continence (as sanctioned by Pius XI) during a woman’s fertile periods, the act is not frustrated because THERE IS NO ACT. One cannot deliberately frustrate something that is not occuring.

You are guessing here about the time statement. Time could be referring to the natural sterility that comes with menopause. Certain defects most likely referrs to medical conditions which render a woman sterile.

Right. And “time” ALSO refers to a woman’s NATURAL, God-designed periods of infertility. It’s not “either/or” --it’s “both/and.”

The line you quote is followed up by "so long as they are subordinated to the primary end and so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved. ". Please explain how the couple can be “subordinated to the primary end” when they are doing their best to thwart it?

How are they thwarting an act that is not occuring? God designed a woman’s menstrual cycles to have periods of fertility and infertility. The cycle is natural. The periods are still occurring. The couple is still engaging in the act during the cycle. Generation of sperm into the uterus is still occuring. What is being thwarted?

Are you going to respond to my previous post?

 

[moon1234]

Let’s look at Casti Conubii a little closer, shall we?

Is the Pope contradicting himself? He says that consensual continence is absolutely allowed by Church law. He does not say WHEN or for HOW LONG this continence must happen.

This contradicts your claim as well. See the red, bolded portion above – a woman’s NATURAL infertile period fits this description.

Virtuous continence would mean that there would need to Virtue in what you are doing. Trying to sidestep the primary purpose does not seem to very virtous.

All of this being said, I do think it is possible to space children for GRAVE reasons. The church always used to use the word Grave without any definition or guidance on what this means. Gave reasons would need to be really serious and not just a personal preference. If the reason is truely GRAVE that you would not be fristrating the primary purpose.

 

[moon1234]

Exactly! During a woman’s infertile periods, the primary purpose is not always possible and a couple does nothing to frustrate the act during those times. Likewise, if a couple practices virtuous continence (as sanctioned by Pius XI) during a woman’s fertile periods, the act is not frustrated because THERE IS NO ACT. One cannot deliberately frustrate something that is not occuring.

Right. And “time” ALSO refers to a woman’s NATURAL, God-designed periods of infertility. It’s not “either/or” --it’s “both/and.”

How are they thwarting an act that is not occuring? God designed a woman’s menstrual cycles to have periods of fertility and infertility. The cycle is natural. The periods are still occurring. The couple is still engaging in the act during the cycle. Generation of sperm into the uterus is still occuring. What is being thwarted?

Are you going to respond to my previous post?

Let me ask you this. If all humanity used NFP at will for their entire childbearing years, how long would the human race last? If NFP truely is 98% effective when practiced properly to avoid children, that would mean the earth would be for the most part depopulated in just a few generations. Now explain how that mentality does not violate the natural law?

People today use mental gymnastics to justify their actions without any reflection on how nature works. The truth of the matter is that humans are the only creature that actively seeks to avoid procreation. EVERY other species seeks to make the female pregnant EACH time she is fertile. We are not animals, but this reproductive process was the way God designed us and we should recogize this not by avoiding this gift, but by celebrating it.

This is probably a poor example, but if you watch the Dugger’s on discovery channel you will see a family that is truely open to life. You never hear them complain about how their life is terrible because Michele is pregnant so often. They are very welcoming to new life. If only more Catholic families were that open to life we would be a much less materialistic world.

 

[wanner47]

Virtuous continence would mean that there would need to Virtue in what you are doing. Trying to sidestep the primary purpose does not seem to very virtous.

All of this being said, I do think it is possible to space children for GRAVE reasons. The church always used to use the word Grave without any definition or guidance on what this means. Gave reasons would need to be really serious and not just a personal preference. If the reason is truely GRAVE that you would not be fristrating the primary purpose.

Finally, you get it. The Church teaches – and has taught, even prior to V2 – that couples need to have virtuous, grave reasons to practice NFP to space births. Using NFP with a contraceptive mentality is sinning, as is using abstinence with a contraceptive mentality. Incidentally, I’ve used NFP to conceive all but one of my children (the other was conceived while we were avoiding, as we were both unemployed at the time – our confessor said that constituted a grave reason). Sadly, we lost him/her to miscarriage.

 

[agapewolf]

Let me ask you this. If all humanity used NFP at will for their entire childbearing years, how long would the human race last? If NFP truely is 98% effective when practiced properly to avoid children, that would mean the earth would be for the most part depopulated in just a few generations. Now explain how that mentality does not violate the natural law?

People today use mental gymnastics to justify their actions without any reflection on how nature works. The truth of the matter is that humans are the only creature that actively seeks to avoid procreation. EVERY other species seeks to make the female pregnant EACH time she is fertile. We are not animals, but this reproductive process was the way God designed us and we should recogize this not by avoiding this gift, but by celebrating it.

This is probably a poor example, but if you watch the Dugger’s on discovery channel you will see a family that is truely open to life. You never hear them complain about how their life is terrible because Michele is pregnant so often. They are very welcoming to new life. If only more Catholic families were that open to life we would be a much less materialistic world.

If all the world used NFP, we wouldn’t have to worry about population because they are being open to life. Remember, much of the world is actually already using ABC, and aborting the children.

 

[moon1234]

Finally, you get it. The Church teaches – and has taught, even prior to V2 – that couples need to have virtuous, grave reasons to practice NFP to space births. Using NFP with a contraceptive mentality is sinning, as is using abstinence with a contraceptive mentality. Incidentally, I’ve used NFP to conceive all but one of my children (the other was conceived while we were avoiding, as we were both unemployed at the time – our confessor said that constituted a grave reason). Sadly, we lost him/her to miscarriage.

Your use of NFP though is not the norm. It is not taught this way in pre-cana classes. If you were stop the average Catholic couple they would most likely not share the church’s viewpoint.

I have argued this with my sister, but she and he husband use NFP solely to avoid ALL children. They have two now and want zero more. Her husband has flat out told her he wants NO MORE CHILDREN. This from a man who spends tens of thousands of dollars each year on cars, motorcycles, hunting trips, etc.

I am so sad for my children as they will only have two cousins growing up. They will not have the experience I had with 15-20 cousins to play with at family gatherings. The talk at Easter and Christmas from them is how it must be so hard for us to have so many kids. They make negative comments about us having any more children. It is very disheartening to my wife to get this treatment from family.

Sadly this is the attitude that many Catholics have now due directly to how they were taught at pre-cana classes. Avoiding children for any reason is A-OK.

My wife and I would never think of doing this. It would deny both of us the love and affection that comes from enjoying each other whenever we want, not when a calendar says so.

 

[Em_in_FL]

Let me ask you this. If all humanity used NFP at will for their entire childbearing years, how long would the human race last? If NFP truely is 98% effective when practiced properly to avoid children, that would mean the earth would be for the most part depopulated in just a few generations. Now explain to mean how that mentality does not violate the natural law?

People today use mental gymnastics to justify their actions without any reflection on how nature works. The truth of the matter is that humans are the only creature that actively seeks to avoid procreation. EVERY other species seeks to make the female pregnant EACH time she is fertile. We are not animals, but this reproductive process was the way God designed us and we should recogize this not by avoiding this gift, but by celebrating it.

This is probably a poor example, but if you watch the Dugger’s on discovery channel you will see a family that is truely open to life. You never hear them complain about how their life is terrible because Michele is pregnant so often. They are very welcoming to new life. If only more Catholic families were that open to life we would be a much less materialistic world.

I’m a little late on this discussion… but it’s time to chime in!

If you haven’t USED NFP then you may not know that it is a difficult SACRIFICE - it’s not an easy choice like artificial contraception is. You don’t just get to have sex whenever you want without repercussions… you *abstain *entirely from relations - sacrificially. Having used NFP throughout our marriage to space our children (I have no need to justify my actions to you), I personally would find it difficult to believe that if someone TRULY has a “contraceptive mentality” that they could maintain that sacrificial attitude that is *necessary *in using NFP. Of course - neither you nor I can read the hearts and minds of others souls - so you’re right - it’s theoretically possible to have a sinful mindset in any activity - but knowing what it takes having used NFP - I don’t find it plausible.

I take it you haven’t read (or don’t truly accept, since it’s post Vat-II)… the Catechism of the Catholic Church?..

Here are the pertinent sections - which will explain that BOTH the UNITIVE and PROCREATIVE aspects are necessary and maintained in using NFP:

2363
The spouses’ union achieves the twofold end of marriage: the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of life. These two meanings or values of marriage cannot be separated without altering the couple’s spiritual life and compromising the goods of marriage and the future of the family.

The conjugal love of man and woman thus stands under the twofold obligation of fidelity and fecundity.

2368
A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality:

    When it is a question of harmonizing married love with the responsible transmission of life, the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria, criteria drawn from the nature of the person and his acts, criteria that respect the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love; this is possible only if the virtue of married chastity is practiced with sincerity of heart.156

2369
"By safeguarding both these essential aspects, the unitive and the procreative, the conjugal act preserves in its fullness the sense of true mutual love and its orientation toward man’s exalted vocation to parenthood."157

2370
Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.158 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:159

    Thus the innate LANGUAGE that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory LANGUAGE, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.160

 

[wanner47]

Let me ask you this. If all humanity used NFP at will for their entire childbearing years, how long would the human race last? If NFP truely is 98% effective when practiced properly to avoid children, that would mean the earth would be for the most part depopulated in just a few generations. Now explain how that mentality does not violate the natural law?

People today use mental gymnastics to justify their actions without any reflection on how nature works. The truth of the matter is that humans are the only creature that actively seeks to avoid procreation. EVERY other species seeks to make the female pregnant EACH time she is fertile. We are not animals, but this reproductive process was the way God designed us and we should recogize this not by avoiding this gift, but by celebrating it.

This is probably a poor example, but if you watch the Dugger’s on discovery channel you will see a family that is truely open to life. You never hear them complain about how their life is terrible because Michele is pregnant so often. They are very welcoming to new life. If only more Catholic families were that open to life we would be a much less materialistic world.

The human race is already contracepting itself out of existence. Paul VI’s predictions in that regard have come true.

If everyone used NFP, we wouldn’t have that problem. NFP causes couples to CONSTANTLY re-evaluate if their reasons remain grave, unlike contracepting couples. Also, Divorce rates among couples who use NFP are 5% or less, so it encourages a more stable society as well.

Also, 98% is the method failure rate. The user failure rate is higher.

I know of the Duggars, and they are lucky they can afford to support 19 kids – but if you have a TV Network paying for your house, and other necessities, I guess that helps. Not everyone is as fortunate. I don’t like how Michelle Duggar deliberately frustrates her natural, God-given periods of infertility caused by exclusive breastfeeding by weaning a child as soon as it is six months old so she can conceive another. It’s not healthy for her or her children, IMO.

Are you ever going to respond to this post? forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6008799&postcount=112

 

[moon1234]

If all the world used NFP, we wouldn’t have to worry about population because they are being open to life. Remember, much of the world is actually already using ABC, and aborting the children.

You sidestepped the question… Anyway you now have countries in Europe PAYING their people have children. France is a good example. Their populations have been below replacement level for 20 years. Even Catholic families are below replacement level. It is no longer seen as virtous for a woman to run a household and raise her children. She must be in the workforce and any children will just put a wrinkle in her career.

What leads to the use of ABC by so many Catholics? Because they see NFP as no different than Catholic birth control so why no just use a condom, the pill, etc. I understand, and so do most of the people here, why this is wrong, but most cafeteria Catholics do not and don’t want to hear about it. They see what other Catholics around them are doing and replicate it. This won’t change until we start speaking out against the “free for all avoidance of children” that is presented in almost all NFP pre-cana classes.

Not coincidently muslim populations are rising around the world because of the encouragement to have large families.

 

[Em_in_FL]

Your use of NFP though is not the norm. It is not taught this way in pre-cana classes. If you were stop the average Catholic couple they would most likely not share the church’s viewpoint.

I have argued this with my sister, but she and he husband use NFP solely to avoid ALL children. They have two now and want zero more. Her husband has flat out told her he wants NO MORE CHILDREN. This from a man who spends tens of thousands of dollars each year on cars, motorcycles, hunting trips, etc.

I am so sad for my children as they will only have two cousins growing up. They will not have the experience I had with 15-20 cousins to play with at family gatherings. The talk at Easter and Christmas from them is how it must be so hard for us to have so many kids. They make negative comments about us having any more children. It is very disheartening to my wife to get this treatment from family.

Sadly this is the attitude that many Catholics have now due directly to how they were taught at pre-cana classes. Avoiding children for any reason is A-OK.

My wife and I would never think of doing this. It would deny both of us the love and affection that comes from enjoying each other whenever we want, not when a calendar says so.

I am not going to justify your sister/BIL’s actions, but I also suggest you don’t judge their situation by the outward appearances. The fact that they are sacrificially abstaining rather than artificially contracepting isn’t something to just brush off. It may be a very difficult and challenging decision for them to have made and they may not be disclosing every minute detail of their decision with YOU. I know I don’t share my innermost feelings with my grown siblings - and I’m sure some of my siblings can misjudge my outward actions as selfish - yet they would have no idea of the truth.

Pray for your sister/BIL… you probably don’t have a full understanding of their situation. Don’t judge.

 

[moon1234]

The human race is already contracepting itself out of existence. Paul VI’s predictions in that regard have come true.

If everyone used NFP, we wouldn’t have that problem. NFP causes couples to CONSTANTLY re-evaluate if their reasons remain grave, unlike contracepting couples. Also, Divorce rates among couples who use NFP are 5% or less, so it encourages a more stable society as well.

Also, 98% is the method failure rate. The user failure rate is higher.

I know of the Duggars, and they are lucky they can afford to support 19 kids – but if you have a TV Network paying for your house, and other necessities, I guess that helps. Not everyone is as fortunate. I don’t like how Michelle Duggar deliberately frustrates her natural, God-given periods of infertility caused by exclusive breastfeeding by weaning a child as soon as it is six months old so she can conceive another. It’s not healthy for her or her children, IMO.

Are you ever going to respond to this post? forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6008799&postcount=112

NFP causes couples to CONSTANTLY re-evaluate if their reasons remain grave

This is only true if they are properly formed to how NFP can be used. My sister was NEVER told that she needed a grave reason or what that was. If anything using NFP has caused MORE problems in her marraige. Many times she would like to be with her husband, but her husbands wants nothing to do with her because it is not the “safe time”.

This would cause a HUGE amount of stress in my family if my wife thought like that.

 

[Em_in_FL]

NFP causes couples to CONSTANTLY re-evaluate if their reasons remain grave

This is only true if they are properly formed to how NFP can be used. My sister was NEVER told that she needed a grave reason or what that was. If anything using NFP has caused MORE problems in her marraige. Many times she would like to be with her husband, but her husbands wants nothing to do with her because it is not the “safe time”.

This would cause a HUGE amount of stress in my family if my wife thought like that.

Your grown sister shares that kind of intimate details about her marriage with her grown brother?
Wow… that’s a close family…

 

[moon1234]

I am not going to justify your sister/BIL’s actions, but I also suggest you don’t judge their situation by the outward appearances. The fact that they are sacrificially abstaining rather than artificially contracepting isn’t something to just brush off. It may be a very difficult and challenging decision for them to have made and they may not be disclosing every minute detail of their decision with YOU. I know I don’t share my innermost feelings with my grown siblings - and I’m sure some of my siblings can misjudge my outward actions as selfish - yet they would have no idea of the truth.

Pray for your sister/BIL… you probably don’t have a full understanding of their situation. Don’t judge.

My sister and her husband don’t hold much back. They seem to wear their emotions on their sleeves. She would not use NFP at all if she had a choice. Her husband is forcing her to use it because he wants as few children as possible. He doesn’t want to send them to a Catholic school because it costs too much. He made that last statement before skirting off to a hunting trip Canada, which my sister let on cost more than a grand. Real open to life ehhh.

Many of “Catholic” people I know of at work and elsewhere have similar mentalities. They need the house, money, cars, etc. before any children come along. God forbid they have more than two kids and have change their lifestyle.

Maybe I am a little bitter, but I think this mentality comes directly from having a contraceptive mentality. Most pre-cana classes only reinforce this thinking. Without a priest explaining what grave reasons are, what virtous countinence is, how will this type of thinking ever change?

 

[wanner47]

Your use of NFP though is not the norm. It is not taught this way in pre-cana classes. If you were stop the average Catholic couple they would most likely not share the church’s viewpoint.

I have argued this with my sister, but she and he husband use NFP solely to avoid ALL children. They have two now and want zero more. Her husband has flat out told her he wants NO MORE CHILDREN. This from a man who spends tens of thousands of dollars each year on cars, motorcycles, hunting trips, etc.

I am so sad for my children as they will only have two cousins growing up. They will not have the experience I had with 15-20 cousins to play with at family gatherings. The talk at Easter and Christmas from them is how it must be so hard for us to have so many kids. They make negative comments about us having any more children. It is very disheartening to my wife to get this treatment from family.

Sadly this is the attitude that many Catholics have now due directly to how they were taught at pre-cana classes. Avoiding children for any reason is A-OK.

My wife and I would never think of doing this. It would deny both of us the love and affection that comes from enjoying each other whenever we want, not when a calendar says so.

Just because many Catholics, like your relatives, misuse NFP does not mean that NFP itself is wrong or sinful. I never took pre-Cana (my husband and I jointly converted to the Church after our marriage) but we did take an NFP class together after our conversion. We were taught that it was wrong to use NFP with a contraceptive mentality.

You are not omniscent. You can’t possibly know what EVERY pre-Cana class teaches or what is in the hearts and minds EVERY couple using NFP. You cannot assume that because some couples misuse NFP, everyone is – or that because some pre-Cana courses fail to teach about grave reason, they all do.

 

[Em_in_FL]

My sister and her husband don’t hold much back. They seem to wear their emotions on their sleeves. She would not use NFP at all if she had a choice. Her husband is forcing her to use it because he wants as few children as possible. He doesn’t want to send them to a Catholic school because it costs too much. He made that last statement before skirting off to a hunting trip Canada, which my sister let on cost more than a grand. Real open to life ehhh.

Many of “Catholic” people I know of at work and elsewhere have similar mentalities. They need the house, money, cars, etc. before any children come along. God forbid they have more than two kids and have change their lifestyle.

Maybe I am a little bitter, but I think this mentality comes directly from having a contraceptive mentality. Most pre-cana classes only reinforce this thinking. Without a priest explaining what grave reasons are, what virtous countinence is, how will this type of thinking ever change?

Okay - so the fundamental problem isn’t with WHAT the church teaches, but HOW it teaches it, right?

Maybe that’s your calling then… time to get out there and teach those pre-cana classes! Heck, learn NFP so YOU can get out there and teach it correctly.

But don’t JUDGE people that use NFP… YOU don’t know who is and who isn’t using it “correctly”… that’s between them and God alone.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

How are they thwarting an act that is not occuring?

Reminds me of some old joke about the man asking the little boy why he was blowing a whistle. “It keeps the elephants from stampeding.” “I don’t see any elephants.” “See, it’s working!”

In this case, NFP is the whistle. Using it during a period of infertility is not thwarting an act because the act isn’t occurring. Like the elephants not stampeding. They weren’t going to stampede anyway. Nothing to thwart.

ABC is used by silly people during periods of infertility and they ARE actively thwarting an act that is not occurring and probably won’t anyway… conception…

Moon, I am a little scared by your comments. Your wife’s health should be a consideration. Very few women, and very few families have the resources the Duggars do to have that many children.

Since you’ve never been pregnant, you don’t know the toll it takes. You can say you know because you’ve watched your wife have 5 kids in 9 years.

But you don’t know the toll.

NO Catholic who practices NFP is taking the view we all should so as to depopulate the earth in the next 20 years. In fact, most NFP using couples end up having more than the 2.1 children required for population replacement in a society. And way more than the .8 percent some European countries have.

And using the Duggars as an example might cause a firestorm here you’re not ready for. Not everyone here thinks they are doing the very best for their kids by having one more each and every time Michelle is fertile.

By the way, when we talk about virtue, I don’t see that having sex every time you want it is any practice of virtue. And using an insistence on the primary purposes to back up a lack of restraint or continence doesn’t help an argument.

Sometimes the more virtuous couple is the one who must refrain from mutual gratification for long periods to put the interest of the children they already have or the mother’s health or the ability to put food on the table before having another child. No, not every family who spaces children does it because they want a vacation or a new boat or a huge house.

And Blessed Teresa of Calcutta and her nuns taught NFP methods to Indian women. God gave us the signs and ability to detect our own fertility patterns. We are NOT animals. Yes, every other species gets pregnant every time they’re fertile. WE are not every other species. We have an immortal soul, free will, and intellect. Our teenagers are not called to rut like barnyard animals once they come into season. Our women are not called to reproduce every menstrual cycle even if the husband is away… because by your logic, if we were like every other animal, women would be bound to mate with the closest man so as to not thwart her fertility.

I mean… when you start dragging animals into this as a justification for human fertility patterns, we can all take this argument to its most absurd conclusions.

I know it’s beyond hope convincing you of the truth. I’m just saying this so any lurkers won’t think Catholicism teaches this draconian morality that every act of intercourse between a man and woman must always be intended for conception. I know a lot of grandparents who would take exception to that as well.

Just because a woman can get pregnant doesn’t mean she should. Or must.

If God intended every act of intercourse to produce a human being, He would have made us spontaneously ovulate like rabbits.

We are not rabbits. Being open to the will of God implies recognizing that HE willed human beings to have a biology they could recognize and cooperate with in order to bring that will about. Or to refrain from the act of co-creation while we prayerfully discern that will.

We are not animals, but this reproductive process was the way God designed us and we should recogize this not by avoiding this gift, but by celebrating it.

Unlike animals, we are not powerless to resist the urge. Though our media tells us we are and our children are powerless. God designed us to use intellect and restraint before we reproduced. Unlike animals, we have a choice about choosing to bring another life into the world during times of famine, natural disaster, war, sickness of other offspring or impending abandonment of spouse. (Those of us who watched marriages go downhill despite our adherence to God’s law know that it is not a good thing to bring more children into such a bad situation.)

A marriage that becomes something where the spouse is seen only as a producer of children can be as toxic as one where the spouse is used only in a sterile fashion. They’re both opposite sides of the same coin.

It’s a quick step to becoming the object of complete lust covered over with a veneer of morality because her primary purpose to have relations with you is to produce children and if you have that, it’s okay.

Look at in vitro fertilization… similar argument… it’s the opposite of ABC. It’s using artificial means to bring about a conception. It is immoral. It is actively thwarting God’s plan for new life by manipulating the very elements of creation. Natural conception is God’s plan for us. We respect that. But it would seem by your argument that a couple that was infertile was immoral for having relations because knowing they were infertile, their marital union would not be intended to produce a child, but would just be for giving each other love. And no, grandparents do not make love intending to produce a child either.

Your logic is flawed and misrepresents long-standing church teachings and encyclicals of Pope John Paul II.

I don’t want lurkers to get the wrong idea reading your very singular and rigid interpretations.

 

[moon1234]

Just because many Catholics, like your relatives, misuse NFP does not mean that NFP itself is wrong or sinful. I never took pre-Cana (my husband and I jointly converted to the Church after our marriage) but we did take an NFP class together after our conversion. We were taught that it was wrong to use NFP with a contraceptive mentality.

You are not omniscent. You can’t possibly know what EVERY pre-Cana class teaches or what is in the hearts and minds EVERY couple using NFP. You cannot assume that because some couples misuse NFP, everyone is – or that because some pre-Cana courses fail to teach about grave reason, they all do.

Your right, I am not omniscient. Do some simple reading on the internet of different diocese NFP materials. You will begin to see a pattern. Converts tend to dig deeper into the faith as they are making a conscience effort to become Catholic. Many cradle Catholics don’t go the extra mile.

This particular topic just sticks in my craw for some reason. Maybe because I very much enjoyed my cousins and I feel a loss for many kids today with only one or two siblings.

 

[agapewolf]

You sidestepped the question… Anyway you now have countries in Europe PAYING their people have children. France is a good example. Their populations have been below replacement level for 20 years. Even Catholic families are below replacement level. It is no longer seen as virtous for a woman to run a household and raise her children. She must be in the workforce and any children will just put a wrinkle in her career.

What leads to the use of ABC by so many Catholics? Because they see NFP as no different than Catholic birth control so why no just use a condom, the pill, etc. I understand, and so do most of the people here, why this is wrong, but most cafeteria Catholics do not and don’t want to hear about it. They see what other Catholics around them are doing and replicate it. This won’t change until we start speaking out against the “free for all avoidance of children” that is presented in almost all NFP pre-cana classes.

Not coincidently muslim populations are rising around the world because of the encouragement to have large families.

I did not sidestep the question…I answered it fully. If everyone used NFP, they remain open to God’s will with children. He can step in there anytime he wanted. His will is the highest.

Why abc is used by many Catholics? because thats what the world views as the norm, not because they think its equal to NFP. Most catholic couples using ABC have never even heard of NFP. Your point doesn’t make sense.