Natural Family Planning dilemma

  • Thread starter Thread starter Aaahm28
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
It is possible to have 6 kids by 22, even by having to adopt kids if not by birth

It’s exactly the irregularity of ovulation that causes natural family planning methods to fail.


They could have been married at 13 in some cultures, not relevant.
You are conflating the “rhythm method” with natural family planning. It’s true that if a woman has regular cycles she may be able to predict ovulation with some accuracy, but there are lots of things cycle to cycle that can change it. Natural family planning uses symptom charting, so the woman knows when she ovulates THAT cycle.

No one “has to” adopt children, though it is a great thing for people to do.

You keep changing the scenario. I suspect you are trolling. 🤷
 
It is possible to have 6 kids by 22, even by having to adopt kids if not by birth

It’s exactly the irregularity of ovulation that causes natural family planning methods to fail.

They could have been married at 13 in some cultures, not relevant.
Who is this 13 yr old marrying?? You’d rather fight to allow condoms for the man having sex with her than to fight to stop child brides??

npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5541006
 
NFP requires abstinence. Birth control does not. God forbid that we should tell married couples that they are responsible for exercising self-control. Oh, the horror! :eek:
Nothing wrong with abstinence. What is wrong is painting every woman with the same brush. Basically putting a couple into the position of having to be forced to be abstinent because they cannot possibly have more children due to hardship and health. At the same time knowing that the woman is one of those rare cases for which NFP such as Creighton or Billings method does not work and not having the ability to use condoms for a while without incurring the wrath of a priest who will say its a sin, when in that exact same circumstance to use Creighton or Billings would be a sin also but a priest would not consider it to be one.
 
You are conflating the “rhythm method” with natural family planning. It’s true that if a woman has regular cycles she may be able to predict ovulation with some accuracy, but there are lots of things cycle to cycle that can change it. Natural family planning uses symptom charting, so the woman knows when she ovulates THAT cycle.

No one “has to” adopt children, though it is a great thing for people to do.

You keep changing the scenario. I suspect you are trolling. 🤷
No kidding. Usual anti-Catholic/NFP nonsense. However, I’ll post here what I posted in a another thread in which the OP posted, in order to clarify for anyone really scrupulous and reading this.

How is determining ovulation via thermometer a “waste of time”? In strict NFP, determining ovulation is exactly what you want to do! The thermometer is $3-$5. Determine that ovulation occurred via prolonged temperature rise of 4 or, if you want to be really, really safe, 5 days, and voila! There is no way to get pregnant that cycle. An egg lives 24 hours post-ovulation, and double ovulation occurs within 24 hours of the first. Most women will then have a minimum of a week, and in most cases more like 10 days, before their period begins.

That people might be hypocritical about a belief doesn’t mean the belief isn’t true.

As others have pointed out, all methods of avoiding conception, excepting total abstinence, fail sometimes. This is why some couples in bad situations choose total abstinence. I personally know of one such couple who were in a situation wherein the wife would die if she got pregnant again, so they chose to abstain until she was in menopause.

No method (except, as I mentioned, abstinence) will work perfectly for all women. That doesn’t mean that methods which are wrong ought to be used in the place of ones which are right. You do realize that condoms break, right?

Here’s a key passage from Humanae Vitae, the encyclical on Church teaching in this matter:

"16. Now as We noted earlier (no. 3), some people today raise the objection against this particular doctrine of the Church concerning the moral laws governing marriage, that human intelligence has both the right and responsibility to control those forces of irrational nature which come within its ambit and to direct them toward ends beneficial to man. Others ask on the same point whether it is not reasonable in so many cases to use artificial birth control if by so doing the harmony and peace of a family are better served and more suitable conditions are provided for the education of children already born. To this question We must give a clear reply. The Church is the first to praise and commend the application of human intelligence to an activity in which a rational creature such as man is so closely associated with his Creator. But she affirms that this must be done within the limits of the order of reality established by God.

**If therefore there are well-grounded reasons for spacing births, arising from the physical or psychological condition of husband or wife, or from external circumstances, the Church teaches that married people may then take advantage of the natural cycles immanent in the reproductive system and engage in marital intercourse only during those times that are infertile, thus controlling birth in a way which does not in the least offend the moral principles which We have just explained. **(20)

Neither the Church nor her doctrine is inconsistent when she considers it lawful for married people to take advantage of the infertile period but condemns as always unlawful the use of means which directly prevent conception, even when the reasons given for the later practice may appear to be upright and serious. In reality, these two cases are completely different. In the former the married couple rightly use a faculty provided them by nature. In the later they obstruct the natural development of the generative process. It cannot be denied that in each case the married couple, for acceptable reasons, are both perfectly clear in their intention to avoid children and wish to make sure that none will result. But it is equally true that it is exclusively in the former case that husband and wife are ready to abstain from intercourse during the fertile period as often as for reasonable motives the birth of another child is not desirable. And when the infertile period recurs, they use their married intimacy to express their mutual love and safeguard their fidelity toward one another. In doing this they certainly give proof of a true and authentic love."

Link to full document here.

In the highly unlikely case you describe, the above bolded passages would apply to the question of whether the couple can have sex if they think that it’s very likely they shouldn’t have any more children. As other posters have pointed out, things may change in the future.
 
Let me put it this way.

If a person overeats to the degree that they are morbidly obese, do we tell the person, “Sure, keep on eating as much as you want, but just make sure you throw up after so you don’t actually consume the calories?” Or do we tell the person to follow a nutritious, medically sound diet to help them learn how to eat in a healthy way and hopefully resolve their health situation - which is probably going to require them to abstain from some foods?

(I don’t mean to conflate pregnancy with obesity, but I do think comparing the body’s reproductive system to digestive system can be really helpful for explaining why the Church teaches as she does. It’s wrong to disrupt the natural way our body functions to achieve our own ends. Contemporary society seems to get that with food, but we don’t get it at all with sex. :rolleyes:)
 
Nothing wrong with abstinence. What is wrong is painting every woman with the same brush. Basically putting a couple into the position of having to be forced to be abstinent because they cannot possibly have more children due to hardship and health. At the same time knowing that the woman is one of those rare cases for which NFP such as Creighton or Billings method does not work and not having the ability to use condoms for a while without** incurring the wrath of a priest** who will say its a sin, when in that exact same circumstance to use Creighton or Billings would be a sin also but a priest would not consider it to be one.
Is this why you think we embrace our Faith?? the wrath of a priest? We follow the teachings as explained and taught by our Mother Church because we love God and wish to please Him.
 
This isn’t a question, it’s an anti-Catholic rant. Although I too share great misgivings about the church’s views on birth control, calling all Catholic thinkers naive philosophers is over the top (note to op: read the unabridged works of Thomas Aquinas and ask if he was dumb; then read his bio and ask if he was naive - the answer is no on both counts).
If you share great misgivings about the Church’s view on Birth Control then you need to read Humana Vitae. Don’t just read it, study it. God Bless, Memaw
 
Question to the OP: If she has 6 children, and is only 22, at what point in time would she have had enough continuous cycles to determine that NFP does not work for her?
Exactly. She isn’t following the rules. Therefore, she isn’t using NFP. Nor is this woman who can afford formula but not a $150 fertility monitor breastfeeding. Granted, there are some for whom that doesn’t work. 1-2% or something. But would they also be the ones who fall into 6 other 1-2% categories so that none of the methods work? Pretty unlikely.
 
Nothing wrong with abstinence. What is wrong is painting every woman with the same brush. Basically putting a couple into the position of having to be forced to be abstinent because they cannot possibly have more children due to hardship and health. At the same time knowing that the woman is one of those rare cases for which NFP such as Creighton or Billings method does not work and not having the ability to use condoms for a while without incurring the wrath of a priest who will say its a sin, when in that exact same circumstance to use Creighton or Billings would be a sin also but a priest would not consider it to be one.
We are one of those young couples! We’re still in our mid-30s. We do not use Creighton or Billings (long story). We use rhythm only (with the help of an Android App calendar). Our abstinence period is longer this way, but I learned a long time ago to accept that. We have 6 children because her cycle was delayed, and then the inevitable happened. I told you to go through my history. I had to abstain when I was stationed overseas. I had to abstain after my wife had a hip replacement at the age of 27. I was only 26 at the time. How easy do you think that was?!

I am not perfect. I sinned. I am not making any excuses for that, and neither should anyone else. A sin is still a sin, even if there are extenuating circumstances.
 
Why is it that whenever somebody does not agree with views that the best way to get rid of them is to accuse them of being a troll?

I got kicked out of the atheist forums and accused of being a troll for trying to discuss the existence of God, in the same way I am being accused of being a troll on a catholic forum even though I would never deny God.

I am quite aware of humane vitae. I state that the thermometer method is unreliable and a false temperature reading caused by an illness or infection or even stress or bad reading method could result in a pregnancy. The case I mentioned is of a couple that do not have the ability to use the thermometer method for practical or medical reasons, it’s not even natural anyway because 200 years ago it would not be possible and it’s not possible today for billions of poor people. The various mucus methods simply do not work for a certain percentage of women. The current tests based on urine sticks are prone to errors until you buy the expensive ones which women in developed countries can hardly afford to use on a long term basis let alone poor countries. The calendar method is subject to the naturally fluctuating ovulation times that can sometimes occur on the early days, sometimes on the last days and even ovulation can occur during a period and anything in between.

All I am advocating is this. It is not moral to ban all other contraception methods until you can provide every woman with a natural family planning method that will work for her. It is not right to say a woman who has no success through no fault of hers with NFP sins when she uses another method such as a female condom, if she has no idea when she is or is not fertile. Spontaneity in love making is part of the beauty of love, and this must be valued and nurtured, with a correct understanding of abstinence. If a couple uses a condom to make love during a fertile period on occasion because circumstances of life and spontaneous love gives them that opportunity, it’s ludicrous to call that occasion sinful. It’s merely life. Especially if the couple already have multiple children and have fulfilled the obligation to be fruitful and multiply.
 
If a couple have to use NFP until menopause because a situation needs to resolve itself then there is no reason to ban them from using condoms with no health effects. The pill is unhealthy. Let’s not even discuss the pill.
Condoms for any reason are sinful!! That’s very unhealthy !! God Bless, Memaw
 
All I am advocating is this. It is not moral to ban all other contraception methods until you can provide every woman with a natural family planning method that will work for her.
Ah, yes, I suppose if God wanted a woman to be able to have infallible control over whether or not she got pregnant, he would have made her that way. Or the Church could come up with the infallible fertility monitor. You simply ask it before getting in bed if having sex today will get you pregnant and it gives you a yes or a no, regardless of whether you are ovulating.
 
Why is it that whenever somebody does not agree with views that the best way to get rid of them is to accuse them of being a troll?

I got kicked out of the atheist forums and accused of being a troll for trying to discuss the existence of God, in the same way I am being accused of being a troll on a catholic forum even though I would never deny God.

I am quite aware of humane vitae. I state that the thermometer method is unreliable and a false temperature reading caused by an illness or infection or even stress or bad reading method could result in a pregnancy. The case I mentioned is of a couple that do not have the ability to use the thermometer method for practical or medical reasons, it’s not even natural anyway because 200 years ago it would not be possible and it’s not possible today for billions of poor people. The various mucus methods simply do not work for a certain percentage of women. The current tests based on urine sticks are prone to errors until you buy the expensive ones which women in developed countries can hardly afford to use on a long term basis let alone poor countries. The calendar method is subject to the naturally fluctuating ovulation times that can sometimes occur on the early days, sometimes on the last days and even ovulation can occur during a period and anything in between.

All I am advocating is this. It is not moral to ban all other contraception methods until you can provide every woman with a natural family planning method that will work for her. It is not right to say a woman who has no success through no fault of hers with NFP sins when she uses another method such as a female condom, if she has no idea when she is or is not fertile. Spontaneity in love making is part of the beauty of love, and this must be valued and nurtured, with a correct understanding of abstinence. If a couple uses a condom to make love during a fertile period on occasion because circumstances of life and spontaneous love gives them that opportunity, it’s ludicrous to call that occasion sinful. It’s merely life. Especially if the couple already have multiple children and have fulfilled the obligation to be fruitful and multiply.
 
Huh! Did I say that?
well this is the scenario you painted: A 22 yr old mother of 6 kids could have been married at 13 and are too poor in an impoverished society to use expensive materials and we can’t talk about the pill so you suggested condoms and they need to adopt the children next door who’s parents have died of AIDS. 🤷 Did I miss something?

A child who marries at 13 is a child bride/groom. Since we are talking about a MOM, we’ll go with child bride.

You create false scenarios in a poor attempt to justify birth control.
 
Why is it that whenever somebody does not agree with views that the best way to get rid of them is to accuse them of being a troll?

I got kicked out of the atheist forums and accused of being a troll for trying to discuss the existence of God, in the same way I am being accused of being a troll on a catholic forum even though I would never deny God.

I am quite aware of humane vitae. I state that the thermometer method is unreliable and a false temperature reading caused by an illness or infection or even stress or bad reading method could result in a pregnancy. The case I mentioned is of a couple that do not have the ability to use the thermometer method for practical or medical reasons, it’s not even natural anyway because 200 years ago it would not be possible and it’s not possible today for billions of poor people. The various mucus methods simply do not work for a certain percentage of women. The current tests based on urine sticks are prone to errors until you buy the expensive ones which women in developed countries can hardly afford to use on a long term basis let alone poor countries. The calendar method is subject to the naturally fluctuating ovulation times that can sometimes occur on the early days, sometimes on the last days and even ovulation can occur during a period and anything in between.

All I am advocating is this. It is not moral to ban all other contraception methods until you can provide every woman with a natural family planning method that will work for her. It is not right to say a woman who has no success through no fault of hers with NFP sins when she uses another method such as a female condom, if she has no idea when she is or is not fertile. Spontaneity in love making is part of the beauty of love, and this must be valued and nurtured, with a correct understanding of abstinence. If a couple uses a condom to make love during a fertile period on occasion because circumstances of life and spontaneous love gives them that opportunity, it’s ludicrous to call that occasion sinful. It’s merely life. Especially if the couple already have multiple children and have fulfilled the obligation to be fruitful and multiply.
We are NOT the Church, we can not make up our own minds about what is moral. That’s the Church’s job. It is not right for us to try to tell the Church what is moral. The Holy Spirit does that. Many people have serious crosses to carry. Sex is not all there is to life. My husband was ill for 5 years before he died, and he’s been gone for 30. Does that mean I could go out to find love in all the wrong places. Certainly NOT. No one has ever died or sinned from not having sex. Life can be beautiful in many other ways. God Bless, Memaw
 
All I am advocating is this. It is not moral to ban all other contraception methods until you can provide every woman with a natural family planning method that will work for her. It is not right to say a woman who has no success through no fault of hers with NFP sins when she uses another method such as a female condom, if she has no idea when she is or is not fertile. Spontaneity in love making is part of the beauty of love, and this must be valued and nurtured, with a correct understanding of abstinence. If a couple uses a condom to make love during a fertile period on occasion because circumstances of life and spontaneous love gives them that opportunity, it’s ludicrous to call that occasion sinful. It’s merely life. Especially if the couple already have multiple children and have fulfilled the obligation to be fruitful and multiply.
hahaha!!! too funny! You actually used the phrase “its merely life” in defense of not being open to life :rotfl:

Just because one already has been blessed with children it does not mean that they have completed their obligation in marriage to be open to life. Your scenario would be the same as saying a couple has been faithful for the first 10 yrs of marriage so they don’t have to continue that vow for the next 20-30-40 years
 
If you mean a full fast for lent from sexual relations with my spouse. Sure no problem, it’ seems we will be doing a fast for much longer then that however.

So what you are suggesting is that a 22 year old uneducated woman in a poor African country go and spend her husbands 1 months salary to buy expensive test kits that may or may not work, while trying to feed and educate her family of six soon to be 8 when her neighbours die of AIDs and she adopts their children?
No, I was suggesting what if you had to live by prior Church discipline in regards to fasting during Lent. As in fasting from food, of various types, and in greatly restricted amounts. How would you feel about 40 days of that?

Stop inventing pretend women. What if a comet strikes? What will that do to her cycle?
 
There is no dilemma for one who is honest. The truth is that ALL forms of birth control have always been condemned by the Catholic Church.

Youtube the video: NFP: A Birth Control Deception
 
well this is the scenario you painted: A 22 yr old mother of 6 kids could have been married at 13 and are too poor in an impoverished society to use expensive materials and we can’t talk about the pill so you suggested condoms and they need to adopt the children next door who’s parents have died of AIDS. 🤷 Did I miss something?

A child who marries at 13 is a child bride/groom. Since we are talking about a MOM, we’ll go with child bride.

You create false scenarios in a poor attempt to justify birth control.
I agree, but for those who might agree with her scenario, I hope they can learn better. God Bless, Memaw
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top