Natural Family Planning dilemma

[thewanderer]

As to the words grave, serious or just–all are used in various documents. I don’t think that it makes much sense to argue about the wording when all are used interchangeably within the Church and in the various documents issued by the popes and bishops.

Also, people are so hung up on the term contraception or birth control when referring to NFP. I think that it has a lot to do with the way secular society groups all forms of family planning together. It does create confusion but I don’t think most people do it TO cause confusion. I know it was not my intention.

Actually, so far as I am aware grave is not used in any official documents. It is a mistranslation of the word “gravitas” which means serious or just. The official translation on the vatican website does not use the term grave at all. If I’m wrong and the word grave is used in an official document it would be great to know, so please pass along a link if you know of anywhere that it is used officially.

 

[bitterhope]

I don’t know how to post a link but I will try to figure it out after dinner. In the meantime, I’ve seen documents linked in other threads that do contain the word grave in them.

I’ll see if my teens can help out with the link. I’m old fashioned and technologically impaired. They usually are able to do whatever I ask them to though when it comes to computers

 

[thewanderer]

I don’t know how to post a link but I will try to figure it out after dinner. In the meantime, I’ve seen documents linked in other threads that do contain the word grave in them.

I’ll see if my teens can help out with the link. I’m old fashioned and technologically impaired. They usually are able to do whatever I ask them to though when it comes to computers

 

[bitterhope]

Sorry, I’m not figuring out how to post links. My oldest daughter is similar to me with computers, and the boys are not home. They had a lock in at Church for the Confirmation kids. Hopefully someone a little more technologically able will be able to do it. I don’t think I’m ever going to learn these things. But hey, guess there’s more important things in life than the internet anyway.

 

[Aaahm28]

For a married couple to abstain from sex is a sin against the spiritual unity of the man and the woman and God and the consummation of love in the sexual act. If a married couple both wish to abstain from sex, as they want to become virginal for God again , perhaps there is some virtue in this. I would say there is in it a disbelief in the sexual act being a form of prayer. Either way there is something wrong about this it goes against the very core of humanity and the sex difference and acceptance of man by woman and woman by man.

If a married couple have already got several children and honestly do not desire more because they know they hardly manage with what they have, and they know that the church is no help, and the state is no help and it’s just them to raise those kids, then if they use NFP they sin because NFP may only be used to space children and not as a contraceptive method for indefinitely avoiding children. In this case there is no difference between NFP or the condom, or withdrawal before ejaculation it’s all a sin in the eyes of the church.

If they enjoy sex without ejaculation, they sin,

If they enjoy oral sex together without vaginal insemination, they sin.

If they abstain its a sin.

It’s all ridiculous, it’s the views of celibate philosophers who have no idea of married life and apply rules to sex that are only practical in the garden of Eden not in real life.

Let the church start looking after all these children they cause, let them provide free schooling for large catholic families and let the priests and nuns come help clean the houses of these large families. Let them put their money where their mouth is and show some of this charity they expect of everyone else. It’s a one way conversation, they give rules, we give them money.

The only real thing left about the church is the mass and the 5% of religious who actually live like Jesus said and then the minority of good parishioners who keep the whole Church trundling along.

 

[Memaw]

For a married couple to abstain from sex is a sin against the spiritual unity of the man and the woman and God and the consummation of love in the sexual act. If a married couple both wish to abstain from sex, as they want to become virginal for God again , perhaps there is some virtue in this. I would say there is in it a disbelief in the sexual act being a form of prayer. Either way there is something wrong about this it goes against the very core of humanity and the sex difference and acceptance of man by woman and woman by man.

If a married couple have already got several children and honestly do not desire more because they know they hardly manage with what they have, and they know that the church is no help, and the state is no help and it’s just them to raise those kids, then if they use NFP they sin because NFP may only be used to space children and not as a contraceptive method for indefinitely avoiding children. In this case there is no difference between NFP or the condom, or withdrawal before ejaculation it’s all a sin in the eyes of the church.

If they enjoy sex without ejaculation, they sin,

If they enjoy oral sex together without vaginal insemination, they sin.

If they abstain its a sin.

It’s all ridiculous, it’s the views of celibate philosophers who have no idea of married life and apply rules to sex that are only practical in the garden of Eden not in real life.

Let the church start looking after all these children they cause, let them provide free schooling for large catholic families and let the priests and nuns come help clean the houses of these large families. Let them put their money where their mouth is and show some of this charity they expect of everyone else. It’s a one way conversation, they give rules, we give them money.

The only real thing left about the church is the mass and the 5% of religious who actually live like Jesus said and then the minority of good parishioners who keep the whole Church trundling along.

My heart goes out to you and all your false opinions of the Catholic Church, You really don’t know what your missing. It’s hard to believe you still call yourself Catholic with such an attitude. You need to talk to a priest. Prayers and God Bless, Memaw

 

[PaulGH]

My replies are in blue.

For a married couple to abstain from sex is a sin against the spiritual unity of the man and the woman and God and the consummation of love in the sexual act. If a married couple both wish to abstain from sex, as they want to become virginal for God again , perhaps there is some virtue in this. I would say there is in it a disbelief in the sexual act being a form of prayer. Either way there is something wrong about this it goes against the very core of humanity and the sex difference and acceptance of man by woman and woman by man.

St. Paul, in Sacred Scripture, teaches that it is acceptable for a husband and a wife to abstain “for a season”:

“Do not refuse one another except perhaps by agreement for a season, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, lest Satan tempt you through lack of self-control.” (1 Corinthians 7:5)

If a married couple have already got several children and honestly do not desire more because they know they hardly manage with what they have, and they know that the church is no help, and the state is no help and it’s just them to raise those kids, then if they use NFP they sin because NFP may only be used to space children and not as a contraceptive method for indefinitely avoiding children. In this case there is no difference between NFP or the condom, or withdrawal before ejaculation it’s all a sin in the eyes of the church.

That’s clearly not what the Catholic Church teaches about NFP, so I see no need to argue the point.

If they enjoy sex without ejaculation, they sin,

If they enjoy oral sex together without vaginal insemination, they sin.

If they abstain its a sin.

Are these your opinions, or what you think the Catholic Church teaches?

It’s all ridiculous, it’s the views of celibate philosophers who have no idea of married life and apply rules to sex that are only practical in the garden of Eden not in real life.

The “rules” (and I mean the actual teaching of the Catholic Church, not your distortion of it) have worked wonderfully in my marriage, and in many others. You may speak for yourself and your own experience, but you don’t speak for everyone.

Let the church start looking after all these children they cause, let them provide free schooling for large catholic families and let the priests and nuns come help clean the houses of these large families.

The church does not cause children. I know what caused my children, and while God certainly had a lot to do with it, it is hard to see how the church played any direct role.

But the church does look after children – haven’t you heard of Catholic orphanages and Catholic social services? And the church does offer discounted schooling for large families. For example, at our local Catholic school, no family has to pay tuition for more than three children at a time. Any additional children are free. Plus our parish pays half the tuition bill, and the school has a tuition assistance fund for families who can’t afford the tuition.

Let them put their money where their mouth is and show some of this charity they expect of everyone else. It’s a one way conversation, they give rules, we give them money.

This doesn’t even make sense. This is like saying, “stop making citizens pay for X, Y, and Z; the government should pay!” But where does the government get money? From taxes. So it is the citizens who are paying either way. It is the same with the church. At least in many places in the modern world, the Catholic Church (as an institution) does not have independent sources of income; it relies on donations from its members.

Also, you seem to have a very clerical view, that sees a huge divide between the institutional church (bishops, priests, dioceses, etc.) and the lay members of the church. But we are all part of the church. For example, if a lay Catholic organization engages in charitable activity, that **is **the church engaging in charity.

The only real thing left about the church is the mass and the 5% of religious who actually live like Jesus said and then the minority of good parishioners who keep the whole Church trundling along.

Have you heard Jesus’s parable of the wheat and the tares (weeds)? If so, why would it surprise you that only a minority of people in the church have a strong faith that they live out in their daily lives?

 

[bubba1358]

Abstaining in marriage is NOT a sin. Ever.

The Holy Family abstained 100% of the time, and did not sin. As Catholics we hold Mary to be ever-virgin and without sin. If abstinence was sinful, we’d have some problems to work out with Marian doctrine.

There are other examples of saints who remained virgins through forced or arranged marriages. One couple was canonized and voluntarily lived a virginal life together. I’d have to research the names.

 

[bubba1358]

Re-read my earlier post. Ya know, the one that actually cites real Church teaching.

The one where real words from the Popes and the Catechism describe using NFP in a non-sinful way, even “indefinitely” (Pope Pius XII’s word).

I get a sense you’re dancing around a larger question here…

 

[Aaahm28]

“This also holds for the objective evil of contraception, which introduces a pernicious habit into the conjugal life of the couple.”

This is Why the priests don’t like contraception. Well if you are using NFP to indefinitely avoid children then you are with your intent and actions introducing a pernicious habit into the conjugal life. There is no difference between this and condoms.

As for the other allegations I have been accused of.

Maybe in some places the catholic schools are a bit more charitable . My experience has been, “if you can’t afford to pay take your kids into state schools”.

Whatever Pope Pius said he contradicts himself and later Popes firmly oppose that statement you refer to.

If you think that it was necessary for your church to be true, or you absolutely know that the holy family abstained after the birth of Jesus then you are stuck in scruple. Do you think Mary the mother of Jesus would be less holy and the Church would be less holy if Joseph and Mary did make love? I would say it would be more beautiful for Jesus to know his earthly parents expressed their love fully and totally. This is not important and not the Churches business.

A forced or arranged marriage is a sin. To get married and to live a virginal life together means the marriage is not valid due to lack of consummation. Again the Church demands that the marriage be consummated. The church here demands that abstinence not be present after the marriage. If you want to live a virginal life together and you are getting married then you are better off in a monastery. Apart from some medical condition, married couples that do not have sex should be reprimanded in the confessional. It is unnatural to not love fully in a marriage.

Everything else I wrote is exactly what the church teaches.

Off course the church causes children, even initially unwanted children, which are then accepted. There are people who cannot abstain due to their particular emotional and development stage and for whom NFP methods don’t work, or they cannot afford them or the medical or counselling cost associated with them.

The problem is that there needs to be a balanced world view. We know that the sex act has a unitive meaning and a procreative meaning every time, but that does not mean that the procreative meaning has to be fulfilled. If a couple uses only the infertile periods for sex then it’s clear that they do not want to fulfil the procreative meaning and don’t intend to. Using a condom in the same way or ejaculation outside the vagina has exactly the same intent. For the Church to pretend there is a difference is wrong just because the one has rubber involved, and both methods are prone to failure, meaning both can potentially result in life .

I would like to see a intelligent and reasonable church. a couple comes to a priest and says, " father we have three children and we are exhausted, NFL doesn’t work for us and we have a medical history to prove it and a history of charting and trying and our jobs are intensive and demanding, life is expensive and we have no family support we can’t have anymore children, we are getting to old"

The priest should say the following, " if I can’t organise somebody to help you with the housework, and if I can’t organise cheap catholic schooling for you, and if I can’t help you with more money to pay for help, and if I can’t help you recover from your exhaustion, and if I can’t help you find less exhausting jobs at the same pay, and if I can’t help you solve your NFP problems within a reasonable time, then let’s talk about your family and your reasons and for the moment while we have this discussion over the next years, I take responsibility please use the condom for the next 2 -3 year as we evaluate our options and we try improve things for you together, please come for fortnightly talks as we get through this. "

Because that is what a Rabbi does!

A Rabbi can marry, they have not lost track of reason. They understand that life is about being flexible when your back is against the wall and you need to consider a middle way through less than ideal choices. It’s called wisdom.

 

[pensmama87]

Aaahm28,

So how many times must a couple have sex during the wife’s fertile period to be sure they aren’t sinning?

 

[Aaahm28]

“Serious motives, such as those which not rarely arise from medical, eugenic, economic and social so-called ‘indications,’ may exempt husband and wife from the obligatory, positive debt for a long period or even for the entire period of matrimonial life.”

Again language of a philosopher for a philosopher, not language towards midwives.

What does he mean by the above? all this has been contradicted by later teaching if it means that a couple may desire to not have anymore children or any at all.

Again I ask what does the sentence mean. It’s more of the confusing language they continually use to annoy people.

 

[mommamaree]

Everything asserted in the post below (by Aaahm28) is false. There are so many distortions and outright lies in this post that it is impossible to know where to begin to refute all the errors. No one should take anything that is asserted as true.

For a married couple to abstain from sex is a sin against the spiritual unity of the man and the woman and God and the consummation of love in the sexual act. If a married couple both wish to abstain from sex, as they want to become virginal for God again , perhaps there is some virtue in this. I would say there is in it a disbelief in the sexual act being a form of prayer. Either way there is something wrong about this it goes against the very core of humanity and the sex difference and acceptance of man by woman and woman by man.

If a married couple have already got several children and honestly do not desire more because they know they hardly manage with what they have, and they know that the church is no help, and the state is no help and it’s just them to raise those kids, then if they use NFP they sin because NFP may only be used to space children and not as a contraceptive method for indefinitely avoiding children. In this case there is no difference between NFP or the condom, or withdrawal before ejaculation it’s all a sin in the eyes of the church.

If they enjoy sex without ejaculation, they sin,

If they enjoy oral sex together without vaginal insemination, they sin.

If they abstain its a sin.

It’s all ridiculous, it’s the views of celibate philosophers who have no idea of married life and apply rules to sex that are only practical in the garden of Eden not in real life.

Let the church start looking after all these children they cause, let them provide free schooling for large catholic families and let the priests and nuns come help clean the houses of these large families. Let them put their money where their mouth is and show some of this charity they expect of everyone else. It’s a one way conversation, they give rules, we give them money.

The only real thing left about the church is the mass and the 5% of religious who actually live like Jesus said and then the minority of good parishioners who keep the whole Church trundling along.

 

[Aaahm28]

A married couple should have a minimum of two children if they are to have any children at all. Some people should be married but not have any children whatsoever in my opinion. If they cannot afford those children then other church members should help raise them and pay for the children to be well nourished and educated. The Church is meant to be a community of love, not a system of exchanging the mass and reconciliation for money.

I have spent a lot of time amongst Catholic priests and nuns what I know about the majority of them is better left unsaid. This is why I called Bitterhope an absolute hero, she is on the battlefield of life with a distant husband and raising her children alone with little support.

 

[Aaahm28]

Everything asserted in the post below (by Aaahm28) is false. There are so many distortions and outright lies in this post that it is impossible to know where to begin to refute all the errors. No one should take anything that is asserted as true.

False are they? Start refuting! All this comes from church documents and teachings of the Church.

 

[pensmama87]

A married couple should have a minimum of two children if they are to have any children at all. Some people should be married but not have any children whatsoever in my opinion. If they cannot afford those children then other church members should help raise them and pay for the children to be well nourished and educated. The Church is meant to be a community of love, not a system of exchanging the mass and reconciliation for money.

I have spent a lot of time amongst Catholic priests and nuns what I know about the majority of them is better left unsaid. This is why I called Bitterhope an absolute hero, she is on the battlefield of life with a distant husband and raising her children alone with little support.

You are the ones making the assertions. You provide the evidence. (By the way, there is none.)

Also - how dare you?

You are horribly misguided. A confused and lost soul, probably a troll, at best.

 

[bitterhope]

Look, I’m not a hero at all. Many moms and dads deserve that honor but I’m not one of them. Struggling alone is not what makes a hero. And besides, lots of people are much worse off than I am.

The Church is full of sinners. That doesn’t make our sins acceptable. Supporting each other through hard times is each of ours responsibility. Yes, I often feel that the Church doesn’t do nearly enough. Many parishes are rather snobby even. But world wide the Church provides more service than any other organization. Many parishes do give ground level support to those who ask. The Truths professed by the Church are 100% best for our souls.

I struggle enough here on earth. It truly is a valley of tears we are in. That doesn’t mean we can’t find joy in our trials. It also makes me reach towards heaven and look forward to the day I am reunited with my loved ones, especially my children.

Marriage is the hardest vocation in so many ways. It is also the most filled with grace if we only ask God to give it and then open our souls to receive it. Society has a way of corrupting the most beautiful of things. Family, marriage, sex and new life are high on the destroy list. Sex has been so corrupted that most people have forgotten what it’s true purpose is and at what stage in life it was created to be enjoyed. This corruption started well before abortion and contraception were widespread, easy and affordable. It will only get worse unless we work on not just spreading the message of Truth, but finding the way to make it understandable. I want for Science to study female fertility and develop newer methods of NFP that may work better for those of us that other methods fail. That being said, I’m nervous about what else those studies may lead to in this broken world.

I pray that you find peace in your journey. May God heal your heart.

 

[maryjk]

A married couple should have a minimum of two children if they are to have any children at all.

False are they? Start refuting! All this comes from church documents and teachings of the Church.

You are spouting false teachings. You are the one that needs to prove them true.

Where, in Church teaching, does it say that a married couple must have or even should have a minimum of two children?

 

[mommamaree]

False are they? Start refuting! All this comes from church documents and teachings of the Church.

No it doesn’t come from the documents. Other posters have already kindly linked and explained what the Church actually teaches. You are spreading misinformation.

 

[LongingSoul]

A married couple should have a minimum of two children if they are to have any children at all. Some people should be married but not have any children whatsoever in my opinion. If they cannot afford those children then other church members should help raise them and pay for the children to be well nourished and educated. The Church is meant to be a community of love, not a system of exchanging the mass and reconciliation for money.

Do you think the Church should help only Catholic families as in being a type of government social service but only for Catholics? That sounds like one of those exclusive crazy cults. The Church is a teacher and guide for all humanity. Her goal is to see us as all Church… all helping each other along the way. Look at the way that we have grown into societies that provide government money and assistance to all citizens without prejudice these days. Look at the Churchs forthright pleas and her practical efforts regarding refugees and other disenfranchised groups. Look at her unfailing support of the inviolability of all human life without prejudice including the newly concieved. The Church has influenced society more than you are willing in you raging hate filled blindness, to acknowledge. We are not an exclusive cult. The ‘Communion of Saints’ which is a necessary belief of all Catholics, includes all people. The communion of all people is Gods will for us.

I have spent a lot of time amongst Catholic priests and nuns what I know about the majority of them is better left unsaid. This is why I called Bitterhope an absolute hero, she is on the battlefield of life with a distant husband and raising her children alone with little support.

I’ve been a Catholic since the day I was born. Grew up in a thoroughly Catholic environment. My uncle and godfather is a Priest of over 50 years. 80 years old and still driving miles around his district every day ministering to people in need. My cousin also a Priest helped set up a new order of Priests under Pope John Pauls mission of new evangelisation meeting with St Pope JPII countless times over the years before his heath decline. These are wonderful men. I’ve grown up around Priests and nuns also so I know that you are set on painting the Church with your broad brush of hate rather than looking for truth. Truth is the all important thing.