Natural Family Planning for "Serious" Reasons

[Xantippe]

50K in some areas of this country goes a LOT farther than other areas, so this seems a curious line to determine someone’s selfishness.

IIRC, though, as family size increases household income increases. This is likely because by the time someone gets to a family that large, they are in their peak earning years.

The Church doesn’t put a hard line on it. It’s up to couples to discern and figure out together as they go along.

For the record, my husband and I are TTA (trying to avoid) for the first time ever in our marriage - up until now we’ve been TTW (trying to “whatever” ). I’ve found that this is a great opportunity for both of us, but especially me, to learn to practice self-control. Before now I’ve always been pregnant or breastfeeding has suppressed my cycles, so my level of interest was subdued by those hormones. Now that’s not happening, so believe me, we’re revisiting frequently whether this is the best path for us. But it is (as I just mentioned in another thread, God gave us free will for a reason, and we don’t have to just fall in with our whims - even when they are a good like the union of husband and wife) because we have some things that do need to be taken care of. (No, it’s not a fancy vacation. )

Yep. It’s just about never a fancy vacation.

By the way, if anybody wants to send my family on a fancy vacation, I am very open to the idea! Fancy vacations sound great.

 

[Xantippe]

I think making sure you can provide good opportunities for your children and aren’t living paycheck to paycheck is a valid reason to limit family size. Not everyone makes that choice, though. Everyone has different priorities. And purchasing power varies by region, so I don’t think drawing a hard line at 50k makes sense. We’d qualify for housing assistance here if we made that little, and we only have one child.

New York state is–I believe–considering free state school tuition for families under $125k.

whec.com/news/cuomo-state-of-the-state-address-ride-sharing-tuition-free/4365907/

 

[Xantippe]

That’s my perspective. I’m not saying it couldn’t happen, but IMO people who really don’t want children for “frivolous” reasons are just going to contracept. Everybody else will decide to abandon the method, because the reasons don’t stand up in the heat of the moment.

ETA: In fairness to (name removed by moderator), I think he’s not saying that morning sickness is never a big deal. It might be akin to a woman who was vain and didn’t want stretch marks (whose career didn’t depend on that.) But is such a woman really going to commit to no sex when she’s the most interested in it? To me that doesn’t seem like reality.

But really, I recommend Simcha Fisher’s book because she does a great job with this situational stuff. You could apply the same circumstances to different couples and they could all decide differently without any of them being wrong or selfish.

Right.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

That’s my perspective. I’m not saying it couldn’t happen, but IMO people who really don’t want children for “frivolous” reasons are just going to contracept. Everybody else will decide to abandon the method, because the reasons don’t stand up in the heat of the moment.

ETA: In fairness to (name removed by moderator), I think he’s not saying that morning sickness is never a big deal. It might be akin to a woman who was vain and didn’t want stretch marks (whose career didn’t depend on that.) But is such a woman really going to commit to no sex when she’s the most interested in it? To me that doesn’t seem like reality.

But really, I recommend Simcha Fisher’s book because she does a great job with this situational stuff. You could apply the same circumstances to different couples and they could all decide differently without any of them being wrong or selfish.

A woman who would rather avoid stretch marks by using NFP, would in fact be avoiding her husband. Imagine the poor guy. “Honey, we are abstaining because I am avoiding stretch marks, no other reason.” That would be a selfish marriage in general.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

With all due respect, if you are a man and therefore will never be pregnant or experience the symptoms of pregnancy and childbirth, I would refrain from making a statement about whether not wanting to have morning sickness is a sufficient reason to use NFP to avoid pregnancy.

The you are a man argument really has no bearing on moral principles involved. That’s like saying a man can’t be an obgyn.

This thread is going to get real ugly real fast.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

google.com/amp/www.foxnews.com/health/2017/01/11/heres-how-much-it-costs-to-raise-child-in-us.amp.html?client=safari

That’s close to three million for me so far.
At some point we have to decide who our master is.

 

[pensmama87]

A woman who would rather avoid stretch marks by using NFP, would in fact be avoiding her husband. Imagine the poor guy. “Honey, we are abstaining because I am avoiding stretch marks, no other reason.” That would be a selfish marriage in general.

No disagreement there.

I still have a hard time imagining, though, that many couples could keep up the sacrificial nature of NFP while still maintaining that high a level of selfishness.

The only way I see that working is one spouse using it as an excuse to avoid intimacy. But that rarely gets brought up by NFP naysayers, at least that I’ve seen.

 

[bitterhope]

The you are a man argument really has no bearing on moral principles involved. That’s like saying a man can’t be an obgyn.

This thread is going to get real ugly real fast.

I agree. Pitting men against women, which in this case is fathers against mothers, solves nothing. If my husband ever tried to tell me, since you’re a housewife and don’t have to go out working, you have no say in how the money is spent, I’d probably ring his neck. And yes, many women only have occasional morning sickness or none at all. I’ve always envied them but many are out there. And yes, secular, non religious, atheists, Protestants, pagans and any other group you can imagine use NFP without barrier methods. Often for frivolous reasons or even outside of marriage. Catholics don’t have a monopoly on it. It is only logical that if NFP is used frivolously by other groups that some Catholics may be using it frivolously as well. I was one of them. It didn’t work, I kept having babies. So I guess I’m selfish for trying to avoid, but also selfish for having many children on a low income as well. And it must all be my husband’s fault somehow because of course he’s the one that can’t control himself. This topic should be banned.

 

[Xantippe]

A woman who would rather avoid stretch marks by using NFP, would in fact be avoiding her husband. Imagine the poor guy. “Honey, we are abstaining because I am avoiding stretch marks, no other reason.” That would be a selfish marriage in general.

Right.

At this point, it’s not a sinful NFP issue, but a being-selfish-with-spouse issue.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

No disagreement there.

I still have a hard time imagining, though, that many couples could keep up the sacrificial nature of NFP while still maintaining that high a level of selfishness.

The only way I see that working is one spouse using it as an excuse to avoid intimacy. But that rarely gets brought up by NFP naysayers, at least that I’ve seen.

If both partners are selfish with the same motives it becomes easier to use nfp wrongly. Just taking the stretch mark example, if the woman didn’t want them and the man didn’t ever want to see them then there is a high level of selfishness that would find itself in nfp.

The trend I’m noticing in nfp in general is an uptick in the crunchy crowd using it more. Non catholic earthy types, many of whom would use it for reasons a catholic couple might not accept as serious, and yet they choose this method as a natural birth control.

 

[Xantippe]

No disagreement there.

**I still have a hard time imagining, though, that many couples could keep up the sacrificial nature of NFP while still maintaining that high a level of selfishness. **

**The only way I see that working is one spouse using it as an excuse to avoid intimacy. But that rarely gets brought up by NFP naysayers, at least that I’ve seen. :**shrug:

Right.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

No disagreement there.

I still have a hard time imagining, though, that many couples could keep up the sacrificial nature of NFP while still maintaining that high a level of selfishness.

The only way I see that working is one spouse using it as an excuse to avoid intimacy. But that rarely gets brought up by NFP naysayers, at least that I’ve seen.

That type of unilateral avoiding for frivolous reasons is just another version of lack of generosity.

I can actually see this happening more than I can see husband and wife deciding that they are were both on board to avoid the stretch marks, by using NFP.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I agree. Pitting men against women, which in this case is fathers against mothers, solves nothing. If my husband ever tried to tell me, since you’re a housewife and don’t have to go out working, you have no say in how the money is spent, I’d probably ring his neck. And yes, many women only have occasional morning sickness or none at all. I’ve always envied them but many are out there. And yes, secular, non religious, atheists, Protestants, pagans and any other group you can imagine use NFP without barrier methods. Often for frivolous reasons or even outside of marriage. Catholics don’t have a monopoly on it. It is only logical that if NFP is used frivolously by other groups that some Catholics may be using it frivolously as well. I was one of them. It didn’t work, I kept having babies. So I guess I’m selfish for trying to avoid, but also selfish for having many children on a low income as well. And it must all be my husband’s fault somehow because of course he’s the one that can’t control himself. This topic should be banned.

Yes.new

Family size and life issues don’t go well in general. Even in real life and on these boards I’ve lost respect for those I usually deem very faithful. Many times I wish I never knew.

Some of us have sacrificed our careers, health, bodies, and luxuries for generosity.
When others label that as unwise it is insulting.

It’s one of the saddest parts of our world.

 

[Xantippe]

If both partners are selfish with the same motives it becomes easier to use nfp wrongly. **Just taking the stretch mark example, if the woman didn’t want them and the man didn’t ever want to see them then there is a high level of selfishness that would find itself in nfp. **

The trend I’m noticing in nfp in general is an uptick in the crunchy crowd using it more. Non catholic earthy types, many of whom would use it for reasons a catholic couple might not accept as serious, and yet they choose this method as a natural birth control.

That would be a very unusual couple who could manage that long term.

 

[Xantippe]

That type of unilateral avoiding for frivolous reasons is just another version of lack of generosity.

I can actually see this happening more than I can see husband and wife deciding that they are were both on board to avoid the stretch marks, by using NFP.

Right.

 

[pensmama87]

If both partners are selfish with the same motives it becomes easier to use nfp wrongly. Just taking the stretch mark example, if the woman didn’t want them and the man didn’t ever want to see them then there is a high level of selfishness that would find itself in nfp.

The trend I’m noticing in nfp in general is an uptick in the crunchy crowd using it more. Non catholic earthy types, many of whom would use it for reasons a catholic couple might not accept as serious, and yet they choose this method as a natural birth control.

But once the urge gets strong, they abandon the method - either by contracepting or having sex anyway. If they can stick to abstaining, that signals to me that they “mean it,” even if their reasons are not my reasons (and as an outsider, who knows? Plus people who neb may not get truthful answers.)

 

[pensmama87]

Here’s my frivolous reason: in the mad attempt to redirect our sexual energy, our house is looking rather spic and span these days.

(Ever see that episode of Malcolm in the Middle? Hilarious.)

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

That would be a very unusual couple who could manage that long term.

Hang out at the farmers markets more.
I know at least three couples who use nfp for “natural” reasons who I’m sure will probably never have children. Or maybe just one. At least one of the couples has told me they do so out of environmental overpopulation reasons.
They are more disciplined and adept than many catholic couples who struggle with nfp .

 

[zea_maize]

This is always an interesting subject for me. We have an only child. I’m very comfortable with our reasons for stopping at one. Though I have been guilty of telling DD that she wouldn’t get nearly as many vacations or time with grandparents if there was more than just her, LOL! Vacations were certainly not the reason we stopped. We attend a very conservative Catholic Church where the norm is to have many children. I’m certain that there is some judgement and assumptions made - now that DD is 12 and it’s pretty obvious to outside observers that we’re one and done. No one has ever made a comment outright to me at Church, but you can see them holding their tongues I have gotten many comments from people about only children stereotypes and how I’m creating a horrible, lonely life for my daughter. I can only imagine how someone who has not chosen to stop but been forced to stop due to infertility or some other issue. I am an only child as well and I do think that influenced our decision to be okay with the idea of stopping at one.

We are open to life. To me, that means that no matter what I intend God has a plan and He can make anything happen. Again, I’ve prayed a lot about this and I feel very comfortable with our reasoning.

My BIL and SIL have 7. They would fit in very well at our Church. That does not stop them from getting rude comments from all sorts of people.

I’m always fascinated by the fact that an outsider would ever claim to know what’s best for a family when it comes to family size. That anyone on the outside would ever think that they could understand the reasons. They may perceive them as selfish or whatever and the reasons may be if someone else had the same reasons, but ultimately this is something that is intensely personal and private and should always be treated with respect and dignity.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Here’s my frivolous reason: in the mad attempt to redirect our sexual energy, our house is looking rather spic and span these days.

(Ever see that episode of Malcolm in the Middle? Hilarious.)

Yeah that is funny!