Natural Family Planning for "Serious" Reasons

[pianistclare]

And furthermore, I feel like the whole “Am I being selfish?” discussion is kind of an invitation down the scrupulosity rabbit hole, for people with that inclination. It’s nearly always possible to find a bad motive, even combined with many good motives.

Exactly.
Furthermore, for fairly literate and thinking persons, endless reading and reading posts with cut and paste segments of documents really doesn’t answer the question.
There are no examples in the Catechism or anything else.
I think the very second post on this over-long thread was the best…
It’s between the couple and God, with the help of a good priest/confessor.

 

[Bookcat]

I thought the question was “are our reasons serious and just?”

Correct:

The reasons are yes not to be “selfish” but that is not the main focus of the criteria…

Many reasons can be not selfish -but not serious reasons to use NFP to avoid.

Concise summary of the Teaching of the Church:

Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI

497. When is it moral to regulate births?

2368-2369
2399

The regulation of births, which is an aspect of responsible fatherhood and motherhood, is objectively morally acceptable when it is pursued by the spouses without external pressure; when it is practiced not out of selfishness but for serious reasons; and with methods that conform to the objective criteria of morality, that is, periodic continence and use of the infertile periods.

**498. What are immoral means of birth control?
**
2370-2372

Every action - for example, direct sterilization or contraception - is intrinsically immoral which (either in anticipation of the conjugal act, in its accomplishment or in the development of its natural consequences) proposes, as an end or as a means, to hinder procreation.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

 

[Xantippe]

I thought the question was “are our reasons serious and just?”

There was a quote from Pope Benedict where selfishness came up, but you’re correct that the primary church documents are about seriousness, not selfishness.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

It actually makes me go tsk tsk that there are probably dozens of huge threads on what constitutes serious reasons for NFP in the CAF archives–whereas there obviously isn’t the same sort of passion for debating the fine points of charitable giving.

Start a thread xantippe. Direct me to it. I’d love to discuss why I don’t participate in the collection…

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Right. It’s possible to do many good things for bad reasons.

And furthermore, I feel like the whole “Am I being selfish?” discussion is kind of an invitation down the scrupulosity rabbit hole, for people with that inclination. It’s nearly always possible to find a bad motive, even combined with many good motives.

I’m not sure about the scrupulocity angle being common. Nfp and it’s use is a two person discernment. Which lessens the OCD like scrupulocity that we see here on caf.

That’s why I don’t buy into the “duggar” argument or the quiverful examples. With the vast majority of catholic couples the decision to have a child is mutual.
This errors on the side of selfishness. For instance when “we” used nfp sinfully, I knew it. My wife did not. The “no” vote almost always wins in the nfp debate.
So being too generous is not as common as being not generous enough

 

[Andrea_Day]

**Thank you for your answers everyone. :tiphat: I’m surprised by how quickly this thread grew. I shall ponder the viewpoints presented.

Peace,
OP Andrea**

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Thank you for your answers everyone. I’m surprised by how quickly this thread grew. I shall ponder the viewpoints presented. :tiphat:

Lol. I’m not surprised.
Nfp
Spanking
Modesty
Ss"m"

These threads will always grow quickly.

 

[Arizona_Fat_Gir]

There were times in my life when, if I had many children, I would have had to go on welfare.

In fact, that was simply because my husband had a hard time with jobs. I never knew if he would still have one from day to day. We abstained.

I hate to tell you this, but nobody in my family believed we abstained. I was always being accused of taking the pill or something, and it wasn’t so. Even if you try to do the right thing there is always someone judging.

 

[Xantippe]

I’m not sure about the scrupulocity angle being common. Nfp and it’s use is a two person discernment. Which lessens the OCD like scrupulocity that we see here on caf.

That’s why I don’t buy into the “duggar” argument or the quiverful examples. With the vast majority of catholic couples the decision to have a child is mutual.
This errors on the side of selfishness. For instance when “we” used nfp sinfully, I knew it. My wife did not. The “no” vote almost always wins in the nfp debate.
So being too generous is not as common as being not generous enough

Eh, there’s an idea floating about that men are raging sex beasts, and that if they aren’t kept sated, all hell is going to break loose.

That particular concern means that a lot of women will tend to err in the opposite direction, because they fear how their husbands will behave if there is substantial abstinence.

 

[Xantippe]

I’m not sure about the scrupulocity angle being common. Nfp and it’s use is a two person discernment. Which lessens the OCD like scrupulocity that we see here on caf.

That’s why I don’t buy into the “duggar” argument or the quiverful examples. With the vast majority of catholic couples the decision to have a child is mutual.
This errors on the side of selfishness. For instance when “we” used nfp sinfully, I knew it. My wife did not. The “no” vote almost always wins in the nfp debate.
So being too generous is not as common as being not generous enough

A number of serious Catholic couples embrace a heavy duty version of wifely submission–see, for example any number of CAF threads. There’s a fair amount of ideological overlap between the “wifely submission” Catholic couples and the “large family” Catholic couples, as there is with the Duggars.

Setting wifely submission aside, I also suspect that the OCD spouse (whatever their sex) tends to drive the marital bus, because it’s such a pain standing up to them.

 

[Xantippe]

Start a thread xantippe. Direct me to it. I’d love to discuss why I don’t participate in the collection…

I’ve been in a number of threads on the subject of giving.

The thing I find troubling about the NFP discussions is that having a larger family often gets treated as the “one ring to rule them all” in terms of moral decision-making. It seems to trump everything–existing nuclear family welfare, health, charitable giving, duties to extended family, duties to our neighbor, duties to the community at large, etc–and I don’t think that actually is a good reflection of traditional moral theology.

This does remind me a lot of how scrupulous people lock onto one particular moral issue and develop tunnel vision where they are not aware of their actual sins (which are obvious to everybody else), but they keep doubling down on polishing to a high sheen this one small moral area that is actually more or less OK already.

 

[ThePCWife]

Related, the latest birth data for America anyway has some interesting aspects to it. Fewer people are having a first child, but if they do, they are more likely to have additional children.

There’s also a steady rise in first births at 30 or older. So broadly speaking, fewer people are having kids, but the ones who are still doing so are not going for “just one” and even people starting in their 30s are trying to have as many as they can given the late start.

That’s everyone in America vs. just Catholics or Christians more broadly, but what you have is a shrinking group of parents who want siblings for their children even with starting their families in their 30s. And this broad pattern covering everyone probably has some connection to NFP practicing people.

I think it’s worth noting that the hurdle of just having a kid is increasingly high-seeming to many people, but apparently those who clear it are much more willing to keep repeating the experiment.

TLDR; the parent pool, secular or Christian, is increasingly open to more children rather than fewer, but it’s also increasingly hard to get people to jump into the pool and get the baby party started.

 

[zea_maize]

Related, the latest birth data for America anyway has some interesting aspects to it. Fewer people are having a first child, but if they do, they are more likely to have additional children.

I truly feel this is because there is a stigma/misunderstanding about having an only child. That that child will be spoiled, unsocialized and self-important. That you are depriving your children of a very important sibling relationship. I’ve had people actually recoil from me when I’ve told them my DD is an only in response to their questions about our family size. I’ve had comments like “don’t you KNOW what only children are like?!?” “doesn’t DD deserve a sibling??” “she must be so LONELY!!” Generally when I respond that I’m an only child and feel like I turned out okay they act as embarrassed as they should be. The sibling relationship is awfully romanticized IMO.

 

[AiyanaS]

I truly feel this is because there is a stigma/misunderstanding about having an only child. That that child will be spoiled, unsocialized and self-important. That you are depriving your children of a very important sibling relationship. I’ve had people actually recoil from me when I’ve told them my DD is an only in response to their questions about our family size. I’ve had comments like “don’t you KNOW what only children are like?!?” “doesn’t DD deserve a sibling??” “she must be so LONELY!!” Generally when I respond that I’m an only child and feel like I turned out okay they act as embarrassed as they should be. The sibling relationship is awfully romanticized IMO.

I agree. My aunt suffered fertility issues her whole life and it took her 10+ years to have my cousin, she’d probably slap someone who told her that only having one child was selfishly depriving her child of a sibling relationship. It’s not like everyone can pop out kids like baby making is a career or want too for that matter. It’s not like that’s what she wanted. Besides, big family does not = the correct way to to have kids, it is also not what everyone wants for there life and there marriage.

 

[pensmama87]

I truly feel this is because there is a stigma/misunderstanding about having an only child. That that child will be spoiled, unsocialized and self-important. That you are depriving your children of a very important sibling relationship. I’ve had people actually recoil from me when I’ve told them my DD is an only in response to their questions about our family size. I’ve had comments like “don’t you KNOW what only children are like?!?” “doesn’t DD deserve a sibling??” “she must be so LONELY!!” Generally when I respond that I’m an only child and feel like I turned out okay they act as embarrassed as they should be. The sibling relationship is awfully romanticized IMO.

I’m going to gently disagree with you here. I know this is a sensitive topic for you and very personal.

I’ll start by saying that I think it’s awful that people have said things like that to you. I think people go to family size as a conversation topic to try and find common ground, but then falter when it doesn’t go as planned. Most of the time, I think people mean well, but that doesn’t make it less awkward or hurtful in the moment. And of course, there are the few who mean for their words to hurt, but can pretend like they don’t when called on it, and that’s worse.

That said, I do think there are certain difficulties that are more likely to arise in families with only one child, and they do include some of the things you mentioned. But most parents work very intently on making up for those issues. My husband was an only, but his parents fostered really close connections with first and second cousins and had regular opportunities for him to socialize with other children at a young age. I think that was really great for him. It’s not a “given,” but I do think given the dynamic that there are certain things that are more likely to arise.

(And the same goes for larger families, too - there are certain things parents need to be careful of and be proactive about when it comes to forming their children, and they’re going to have to be ready to respond to the situation as is. Commentary from strangers is probably inevitable, even though it’s inappropriate, and parents in this day and age have to develop a bit of a filter to sort out good advice from busybodying.)

The Church does ask us to be generous with regards to family size. Siblings ARE a blessing. But not everybody is called to give that, for a variety of reasons - sometimes it’s not possible, sometimes it just isn’t very prudent. And in highly dysfunctional families, yes, sometimes certain relationships can bring a lot of pain. I am not especially close to my siblings as an adult, for a variety of reasons. But I can still recognize their God-given human dignity and yes, there is an intimacy we have simply because we were all raised together. I don’t think it does well to dismiss that as unimportant, either.

Personally, I disagree with your assessment that there are statistically significant numbers of people who decide to have another child primarily due to social pressure. I could see that being an element, but I think for most people, in functional families, they get through the infancy period, realize they’re capable, and like sex enough to say, “What the heck? We’ll give it another go.” They may desire to give their child a playmate or sibling, but because of the inherent goodness in that, not that other people are crowing at them about it.

As I said, I know this is sensitive for you, and I’m not trying to be hurtful. I certainly don’t wish to tell you to have another child or to get involved in your parenting decisions. But I also want to caution you to not throw away the wisdom of the Church, even if in your particular situation it’s not the best course of action.

 

[kptrs]

I’m going to gently disagree with you here. I know this is a sensitive topic for you and very personal.

I’ll start by saying that I think it’s awful that people have said things like that to you. I think people go to family size as a conversation topic to try and find common ground, but then falter when it doesn’t go as planned. Most of the time, I think people mean well, but that doesn’t make it less awkward or hurtful in the moment. And of course, there are the few who mean for their words to hurt, but can pretend like they don’t when called on it, and that’s worse.

That said, I do think there are certain difficulties that are more likely to arise in families with only one child, and they do include some of the things you mentioned. But most parents work very intently on making up for those issues. My husband was an only, but his parents fostered really close connections with first and second cousins and had regular opportunities for him to socialize with other children at a young age. I think that was really great for him. It’s not a “given,” but I do think given the dynamic that there are certain things that are more likely to arise.

(And the same goes for larger families, too - there are certain things parents need to be careful of and be proactive about when it comes to forming their children, and they’re going to have to be ready to respond to the situation as is. Commentary from strangers is probably inevitable, even though it’s inappropriate, and parents in this day and age have to develop a bit of a filter to sort out good advice from busybodying.)

The Church does ask us to be generous with regards to family size. Siblings ARE a blessing. But not everybody is called to give that, for a variety of reasons - sometimes it’s not possible, sometimes it just isn’t very prudent. And in highly dysfunctional families, yes, sometimes certain relationships can bring a lot of pain. I am not especially close to my siblings as an adult, for a variety of reasons. But I can still recognize their God-given human dignity and yes, there is an intimacy we have simply because we were all raised together. I don’t think it does well to dismiss that as unimportant, either.

Personally, I disagree with your assessment that there are statistically significant numbers of people who decide to have another child primarily due to social pressure. I could see that being an element, but I think for most people, in functional families, they get through the infancy period, realize they’re capable, and like sex enough to say, “What the heck? We’ll give it another go.” They may desire to give their child a playmate or sibling, but because of the inherent goodness in that, not that other people are crowing at them about it.

As I said, I know this is sensitive for you, and I’m not trying to be hurtful. I certainly don’t wish to tell you to have another child or to get involved in your parenting decisions. But I also want to caution you to not throw away the wisdom of the Church, even if in your particular situation it’s not the best course of action.

Very well said, pensmama.

I’m an only child. It took my parents years to get pregnant, and they would have loved to have more, but couldn’t. I always really wished I had a sibling. I was lonely growing up (my parents didn’t really take care to arrange play dates for me or other interactions with kids my age). Now my husband’s brother and his wife are sort of filling the role, but it’s still not the same. And so, I definitely made a point to have at least two kids (if possible, God willing). Not saying life as an only child is terrible. But there are definite benefits to having a sibling. Just speaking from my personal experiences.

 

[Xantippe]

I truly feel this is because there is a stigma/misunderstanding about having an only child. That that child will be spoiled, unsocialized and self-important. That you are depriving your children of a very important sibling relationship. I’ve had people actually recoil from me when I’ve told them my DD is an only in response to their questions about our family size. I’ve had comments like “don’t you KNOW what only children are like?!?” “doesn’t DD deserve a sibling??” “she must be so LONELY!!” Generally when I respond that I’m an only child and feel like I turned out okay they act as embarrassed as they should be. The sibling relationship is awfully romanticized IMO.

I think you’re quite right that there’s an enormous stigma against having an only child.

I’ve heard multiple stories of mothers who nearly killed themselves attempting to have a second child.

 

[Xantippe]

When we lived in DC and Big Girl was in preschool, we knew so many people who had a baby 2.75 years older than the older child. It was very noticeable that there were a lot of families with exactly the same configuration as our own.

I think TPCWife is correct that when people decide to become parents in the modern US, that generally means they are intending to sign up for the 2+ kid package.

(We knew a handful of 3 and 4 kid families there, but I find that since we’ve moved to TX, we know a much larger diversity of family sizes than we did in DC–this was DC proper, not just metro DC.)

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I’m going to gently disagree with you here. I know this is a sensitive topic for you and very personal.

I’ll start by saying that I think it’s awful that people have said things like that to you. I think people go to family size as a conversation topic to try and find common ground, but then falter when it doesn’t go as planned. Most of the time, I think people mean well, but that doesn’t make it less awkward or hurtful in the moment. And of course, there are the few who mean for their words to hurt, but can pretend like they don’t when called on it, and that’s worse.

That said, I do think there are certain difficulties that are more likely to arise in families with only one child, and they do include some of the things you mentioned. But most parents work very intently on making up for those issues. My husband was an only, but his parents fostered really close connections with first and second cousins and had regular opportunities for him to socialize with other children at a young age. I think that was really great for him. It’s not a “given,” but I do think given the dynamic that there are certain things that are more likely to arise.

(And the same goes for larger families, too - there are certain things parents need to be careful of and be proactive about when it comes to forming their children, and they’re going to have to be ready to respond to the situation as is. Commentary from strangers is probably inevitable, even though it’s inappropriate, and parents in this day and age have to develop a bit of a filter to sort out good advice from busybodying.)

The Church does ask us to be generous with regards to family size. Siblings ARE a blessing. But not everybody is called to give that, for a variety of reasons - sometimes it’s not possible, sometimes it just isn’t very prudent. And in highly dysfunctional families, yes, sometimes certain relationships can bring a lot of pain. I am not especially close to my siblings as an adult, for a variety of reasons. But I can still recognize their God-given human dignity and yes, there is an intimacy we have simply because we were all raised together. I don’t think it does well to dismiss that as unimportant, either.

Personally, I disagree with your assessment that there are statistically significant numbers of people who decide to have another child primarily due to social pressure. I could see that being an element, but I think for most people, in functional families, they get through the infancy period, realize they’re capable, and like sex enough to say, “What the heck? We’ll give it another go.” They may desire to give their child a playmate or sibling, but because of the inherent goodness in that, not that other people are crowing at them about it.

As I said, I know this is sensitive for you, and I’m not trying to be hurtful. I certainly don’t wish to tell you to have another child or to get involved in your parenting decisions. But I also want to caution you to not throw away the wisdom of the Church, even if in your particular situation it’s not the best course of action.

I have one brother and we’re almost two decades apart, so we never really had the conventional sibling experience or relationship. But the impact we have on each others lives proves the value of siblings. We take care of our parents together, and when they’re gone, we’ll still have each other and the shared experiences and perspectives of our upbringing, even though I was a generation behind him. You never outgrow “Don’t tell mom…”, and as I’ve really become an adult over the last 10 or so years, we’ve become exceptionally close. I care deeply for his kids and even took them for a few months while his now-ex had breast cancer. If anything happened to me and my husband, my children would have a loving uncle with the same values and heritage I have to take them in.

It’s never wrong to raise an only child, but brothers and sisters are invaluable, and that can’t be overstated. And I know my brother, who was an only child for almost 20 years would agree.

 

[zea_maize]

I’m going to gently disagree with you here. I know this is a sensitive topic for you and very personal.

I’ll start by saying that I think it’s awful that people have said things like that to you. I think people go to family size as a conversation topic to try and find common ground, but then falter when it doesn’t go as planned. Most of the time, I think people mean well, but that doesn’t make it less awkward or hurtful in the moment. And of course, there are the few who mean for their words to hurt, but can pretend like they don’t when called on it, and that’s worse.

You’re fine I think you’ve misinterpreted my passion for the subject as sensitivity. I’m actually not sensitive about my own choice at all. I’m sensitive because I recognize that many, many people who have only children did NOT make a choice to have an only and they still get the same judgement, rudeness and insensitivity that I experience. I can handle it but I’d imagine the lack of choice in the matter can make it excruciating.

I am also an only child by my parents choice. I will tell you that, as a child, I often got comments from adults about my PARENTS decision to have an only. “Why would your parents do that to you?” “Don’t you WANT a sibling? “ “You must be spoiled rotten!!” Why an adult would ever question a child about their parents reproductive choices is beyond me, but it happens.

That said, I do think there are certain difficulties that are more likely to arise in families with only one child, and they do include some of the things you mentioned. But most parents work very intently on making up for those issues. My husband was an only, but his parents fostered really close connections with first and second cousins and had regular opportunities for him to socialize with other children at a young age. I think that was really great for him. It’s not a “given,” but I do think given the dynamic that there are certain things that are more likely to arise.

(And the same goes for larger families, too - there are certain things parents need to be careful of and be proactive about when it comes to forming their children, and they’re going to have to be ready to respond to the situation as is. Commentary from strangers is probably inevitable, even though it’s inappropriate, and parents in this day and age have to develop a bit of a filter to sort out good advice from busybodying.)

Well, this is the point, right? That no matter people’s family size there are going to be challenges. And some will get their kids through that better than others. One only need look at neglect and abuse statistics to know that family size rarely is a predictor for terrible parenting.

I also think my opinions on this are colored by the fact that both my parents have 5 siblings and still chose to have an only. I’ve only ever observed the sibling experience but from my outside viewpoint there are no guarantees that it will bring you joy later in life. That is what I mean about it being romanticized.

The Church does ask us to be generous with regards to family size. Siblings ARE a blessing. But not everybody is called to give that, for a variety of reasons - sometimes it’s not possible, sometimes it just isn’t very prudent. And in highly dysfunctional families, yes, sometimes certain relationships can bring a lot of pain. I am not especially close to my siblings as an adult, for a variety of reasons. But I can still recognize their God-given human dignity and yes, there is an intimacy we have simply because we were all raised together. I don’t think it does well to dismiss that as unimportant, either.

I’ve never been dismissive about it and apologize if my comment made it appear that way. I did say it was romanticized and I do still feel that way. But, that does not dismiss that some people do end up with a relationship with their siblings that I’ll never experience. That is real.

Personally, I disagree with your assessment that there are statistically significant numbers of people who decide to have another child primarily due to social pressure. I could see that being an element, but I think for most people, in functional families, they get through the infancy period, realize they’re capable, and like sex enough to say, “What the heck? We’ll give it another go.” They may desire to give their child a playmate or sibling, but because of the inherent goodness in that, not that other people are crowing at them about it.

You are obviously entitled to your opinion but I will tell you that there is a STRONG societal pressure against only children. We will have to agree to disagree on that.

As I said, I know this is sensitive for you, and I’m not trying to be hurtful. I certainly don’t wish to tell you to have another child or to get involved in your parenting decisions. But I also want to caution you to not throw away the wisdom of the Church, even if in your particular situation it’s not the best course of action.

Again, you’re fine You didn’t say anything hurtful at all. We are confident in our choice. I’m also keenly aware that if I’m meant to have another child it will happen as God can make anything happen. I’m open to being proven that my plans are wrong by God. So far, though, He’s very clearly agreed with my discernment.