Natural-Law Defense of the Moral Neutrality of Contraception, in the Spirit of St. Thomas Aquinas

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Therein lies your difference from Church teaching. Wearing a condum or taking a chemical for the direct intent to render the marital act infertile is in fact an intended disorder.
I do not consider the marital act by itself, but all marital acts taken together. In this context, I agree with your statement: wearing a condom or taking a chemical for the direct intent to render all marital acts infertile is an intended disorder. Doing so for the sake of spacing children is not necessarily sinful, and so contraception is morally neutral.

For a more detailed argument, please consider my first posts (with the alterations to Article 2 later in the thread).
 
I do not consider the marital act by itself, but all marital acts taken together. In this context, I agree with your statement: wearing a condom or taking a chemical for the direct intent to render all marital acts infertile is an intended disorder. Doing so for the sake of spacing children is not necessarily sinful, and so contraception is morally neutral.

For a more detailed argument, please consider my first posts (with the alterations to Article 2 later in the thread).
And still more contrarinesd to Church teaching.

Sexual acts are individual not collective.
A disorder act (contraception) cannot be ordered by intent. (“ends don’t justify the means”)

Your conclusion is unsound (not true) as it is based on false premises.
 
Your conclusion is unsound (not true) as it is based on false premises.
Though I respect your opinion, I see no good reason at this time to doubt the soundness of the context I use.

I understand why we come to different conclusions on this issue.
 
One of the other aspects of this issue is this:

Since it is impossible for every marital act, in most marriages, to produce children, and would have been impossible and unnatural even before the fall, it is not the end of every marital act, but of all the marital acts as a whole (the composite marital act), to produce children.

Acts to prevent this general end are wrong. Acts to determine how this end is to be brought about are not necessarily wrong.
 
Though I respect your opinion, I see no good reason at this time to doubt the soundness of the context I use.
The problem with opinions is that we all have them and without reason to support them they can be dismissed as irrelevant.
I understand why we come to different conclusions on this issue.
And based on your faulty premises I know your conclusion is wrong. Your are welcome to demonstrate the truthfulness of your premises. I have shown why I believe they are false.
 
And based on your faulty premises I know your conclusion is wrong. Your are welcome to demonstrate the truthfulness of your premises. I have shown why I believe they are false.
I have shown why I believe them to be true, in quite detailed a fashion, in the first posts for this thread. If you wish to address these, please do so. If not, I think we should leave the conversation here.
 
We could debate the merits of your demonstration, if you wish. They don’t directly reflect upon my own.
Please do. It’s a novel approach, even for me. Please note that my intent with this approach is to specifically refute your assertion that Church teaching on contraception is merely disciplinary.
Contraception, by natural or artificial means, so long as it does not involve some intended disorder is morally neutral.
I think my approach sufficiently demonstrates that artificial contraception and contraceptive techniques (e.g. withdrawal) involve intended disorder while leaving NFP in the clear.
 
Please do. It’s a novel approach, even for me. Please note that my intent with this approach is to specifically refute your assertion that Church teaching on contraception is merely disciplinary.

I think my approach sufficiently demonstrates that artificial contraception and contraceptive techniques (e.g. withdrawal) involve intended disorder while leaving NFP in the clear.
About these two things let me consider more carefully. To help me in this, if you would please state your case in detail here, so that I can read it over and offer objections. When we have refined your case, I will consider it carefully. If I cannot answer it to my own satisfaction, I will abandon my position that contraception is morally neutral. If I can, I will then summarize your argument as an objection, and include my reply to that objection.

Thank you for assisting me in this.
 
Because if it’s not infallible then it could be wrong. The whole purpose of infallible declarations, as far as I can see (and maybe others have a different perspective) is to provide absolute certainty about a particular teaching, so that people in the Church know where the are to stand. If it isn’t clear that a particular statement is infallible, then we certainly don’t have the absolute certainty purposed by such teachings.
BUT, if it is infallible, then it can’t be wrong! You failed to respond to this point. As to the purpose of infallible declarations, they are indeed to provide absolute certainty. Therefore where we already have absolute certainty (and there is no other ingenuous way of reading Paul VI on this), we don’t need an infallible declaration and it is disingenuous to cultivate doubts on the pretense of waiting for one.
No reasonable person would. That’s why any Catholic under the authority of the Bishop of Rome should submit to the teaching on contraception, even if he or she thinks that teaching might change. Even if the teaching is disciplinary, or worse, even if the teaching is wrong, obedience to God’s appointed supreme head of the Church and Vicar of Christ is a great virtue, and rejecting God’s appointed is a great vice.
For a Catholic UAR this argument is mostly intellectual because even if it proves its point, it still shouldn’t change the way a Catholic UAR would teach or live, until the Pope and Bishops would change their teaching. If true, it would do two things. First, in the rare instances where charity rules the law, it would encourage Catholics UAR to consider the use of contraception, and would assuage their guilt. Second, it may give intellectual teeth to the arguments of the majority of lay Catholics nominally UAR who want this teaching changed, and may allow a door for them to return to the authority of Rome.
For a Catholic NUAR, the argument is purely intellectual (save for the charitable desire to help those who are discouraged by Catholic teaching, and want to see a way it might change in the future). After all, if I don’t accept the Pope’s absolute authority (though I do respect his primacy, and as such read everything I can that he’s written, especially the encyclicals and pronouncements, and try to accept them where I find it reasonably possible), I need not go through any arguments about what’s “ex cathedra” and what’s not. I might as well assert simply that the Pope made a mistake, and if he made a mistake with an ex cathedra pronouncement on faith and morals, so much the worse for the doctrine on ex cathedra pronouncements.
I’ve already pointed out your error here about ‘charity ruling law,’ but I will add that I believe that the notion that your argument might be ‘purely intellectual’ is a very dangerous and false one. Your spiritual soul is at stake in these ‘purely intellectual’ arguments, my brother, as it is in your tempting Catholics UAR to dissent from the authority of Rome (in a ‘purely intellectual’ way, I assume? :rolleyes:). How could you possibly deny this?
 
I do not consider the marital act by itself, but all marital acts taken together. In this context, I agree with your statement: wearing a condom or taking a chemical for the direct intent to render all marital acts infertile is an intended disorder. Doing so for the sake of spacing children is not necessarily sinful, and so contraception is morally neutral.

For a more detailed argument, please consider my first posts (with the alterations to Article 2 later in the thread).
So you feel quite certain that God did not intend for there to be an intrinsic (essential) connection between the expression of spousal love in individual acts of sexual intercourse and the creation of children? You feel quite certain that this connection is merely accidental, and its being formally/intentionally broken (at least for the most part) by the introduction of technology is in keeping with God’s plan for human sexuality?

So do you also believe, then, that use of an artificial womb for the production of children would be acceptable, in which case man and wife could render all marital acts infertile while still obeying the command to be fertile?? (Just think of all the advantages!)
 
I am using what follows from the answer, namely that ecclesiastical discipline is always mutable. As such, a de fide declaration that a particular ecclesiastical discipline is not mutable contradicts with the answer and, if the answer is to be believed, would be wrong. Because of this, any ex-cathedra pronouncement about ecclesiastical discipline cannot be a statement on faith and morals, even if it calls itself one. Because, if it were, it would be a wrong ex-cathedra pronouncement on faith and morals, and this is dogmatically impossible.
Er…no: The infallible ex cathedra pronouncement would be right (ex hypothesi it’s infallible!), and your claim that it refers to a merely disciplinary matter would be wrong.

To Objection 3 and Reply: drop it. The Church’s teaching is clearly not a ‘faith’ matter, it is very clearly a moral teaching.

To your Reply to Objection 4: this is nonsense. If a teaching follows from first principles, it too is a moral principle. If it follows only from the requirement of obedience to Christ’s Church, then it is disciplinary…
I think I may alter one of the objections to more reflect this line of argument (since it doesn’t deal directly with ‘act’ and ‘end’ in it’s language, it’s not quite along the lines of the “Natural Law” argument I want to pursue later; it is, though, related, I agree). My intuition for an answer would be, if we accept that the creation of new life or lack thereof is the domain of God, we would be joining that to the fact that every end joined to act is the domain of God and God alone. The time we die is the domain of God. So our attempts to prolong life, natural as they are, will not affect God’s appointed time. Nor would our attempts to affect the point of birth, natural as they may be, affect God’s appointed time for birth. In this, contraception would seem to me morally neutral, as it cannot properly interfere with God’s plan, at that level.
Next, we could imagine that God himself would declare in the Torah that he wills every sexual act to be open to life (the particular statement). But this particular statement would provoke the question of “why every one?” Since the condition cannot be defended on itself, and must be qualified, being a way to implement a more fundamental moral principle, we would conclude that God is declaring a discipline as law. He does this very often, and Christians follow most disciplinary declarations in the Torah (i.e. dietary restrictions) with the same disregard.
The ‘more fundamental’ command to be fruitful and multiply, then, should obviously also be merely disciplinary according to your view, since it too is surely based on a yet more fundamental command.
 
BUT, if it is infallible, then it can’t be wrong! You failed to respond to this point.
I did respond to this point. Consult Post #70 and let me know if you have any further questions.

Of course, if it’s infallible, it’s contents can’t be wrong. But I don’t see any good reason to think it’s infallible in the first place (even for Catholics UAR). As a Catholic NUAR, of course, I don’t think any of the Pope’s statements are necessarily infallible, even if they often are true. After all, the converse to your sentence clearly does not hold.
 
The ‘more fundamental’ command to be fruitful and multiply, then, should obviously also be merely disciplinary according to your view, since it too is surely based on a yet more fundamental command.
I mean no offense, but did you read the first posts in this thread carefully? I ask this because this is one of the objections included in my original articles (as well as in the edited articles), and which I answered, and you don’t refer to either the objection or its reply.
 
I did respond to this point. Consult Post #70 and let me know if you have any further questions.
No, I think you did not. Post 70 in no way addresses my point.

Paul: First, it’s pretty clear that the language in that section in Humanae Vitae is weaker than the language in the definition of the Immaculate Conception in Ineffabilis Deus. Following from that, I come to the conclusion that the statement in Humanae Vitae is not likely ex cathedra infallible; if it is, it might as well not be, because it isn’t clearly so.

Betterave: Again, that doesn’t make sense. “If it isn’t clearly so, then it might as well not be”? Why not: if it isn’t clearly not so ***, then it might as well be? Do you really think that the appropriate response to the message of a prophet of God, of the steward over God’s household, is to split hairs so as to controvert the plain meaning of what he is saying? Can you try to consider the possibility that that may be what you’re doing here?

Originally Posted by Paul_Rimmer:
*Because if it’s not infallible then it could be wrong. The whole purpose of infallible declarations, as far as I can see (and maybe others have a different perspective) is to provide absolute certainty about a particular teaching, so that people in the Church know where the are to stand. If it isn’t clear that a particular statement is infallible, then we certainly don’t have the absolute certainty purposed by such teachings. *

Betterave: BUT, if it is infallible, then it can’t be wrong! My point is: why emphasize one side over the other?
Of course, if it’s infallible, it’s contents can’t be wrong. But I don’t see any good reason to think it’s infallible in the first place (even for Catholics UAR).
Right, you believe this for the reasons given in post 70. But I replied to those reasons so you can’t simply refer me back to them.
As a Catholic NUAR, of course, I don’t think any of the Pope’s statements are necessarily infallible, even if they often are true. After all, the converse to your sentence clearly does not hold.
Why would you claim that the converse of my statement is not true?? How is this relevant anyway??*
 
I mean no offense, but did you read the first posts in this thread carefully? I ask this because this is one of the objections included in my original articles (as well as in the edited articles), and which I answered, and you don’t refer to either the objection or its reply.
No offense, but I got a little bogged down in what seems to me like a lot of superfluity in your argument - so I did do some jumping. I read your edited article carefully though, even the obviously superfluous parts. Please direct me to the specific Objection-Reply where you think you answered my objection. (My objection is aimed directly at your Art. 2, Reply 4, in case that wasn’t clear to you.)
 
No offense, but I got a little bogged down in what seems to me like a lot of superfluity in your argument - so I did do some jumping. I read your edited article carefully though, even the obviously superfluous parts. Please direct me to the specific Objection-Reply where you think you answered my objection. (My objection is aimed directly at your Art. 2, Reply 4, in case that wasn’t clear to you.)
That was the objection and reply I would have referred you to.

In this case, I don’t understand your objection. The “be fruitful and multiply” command is a composite of what two (or more) commands?
 
No, I think you did not. Post 70 in no way addresses my point.
Never mind this point then. Consider my position about the lack of infallibility in this case intractable, and ignore the first article, if you wish.

I believe, in any case, I have replied well to your objections. I don’t think any more about this issue needs to be said, or that it is useful to say anything more on this issue (at least along this line; if you wish to produce another line of reasoning about this, you are welcome to).

At least at the angle concerned, the horse is dead.
 
Revised Article 2:

Article 2: Whether the Church’s Teaching on Contraception is a matter of Discipline

Obj. 1 It seems as though the Church’s Teaching on contraception is not a matter of discipline, but of faith and morals, first because the Church has declared it to be so, as a matter of faith [huh? - says who?].

Obj. 2 Secondly, any statement about contraception necessarily involves seeking out happiness through virtue. So it must be, by its nature, a moral argument.

Obj. 3 Finally, the Church’s Teaching on contraception involves accepting something of the soul, namely that the soul finds detriment in its practice. But as the soul and its detriment cannot be directly seen ‘directly seen’?], this teaching must be a matter of faith, as Hebrews states “faith is the evidence of unseen things.” [non sequitur]

On the contrary, Augustine says (De Trin. iv. 6, 7) God is truly and absolutely simple, but the teaching on contraception is not simple, so it cannot be a matter revealed directly by God to His Church through Sacred Tradition. So it cannot be a teaching of faith and morals.

I answer…

Questions of faith concern assent and belief directly, but not action, which may however follow from that belief. Since contraception deals so directly with action, it is not a matter of dogmatic discipline, but either of moral discipline or of ecclesiastic discipline. Moral discipline concerns assent to aspects of the Natural Law, and Ecclesiastic Discipline to the manner in which moral discipline can best be followed in this day and age. Teaching on contraception, however, is not a fundamental teaching, but rests on a more basic principle, that the purpose of the sacrament of marriage and for the marital act is first for the procreation of children. The application of this principle to every sexual act has been to prohibit contraception. However, since this is an application of a basic principle to our day and age, even if it were for all ages, it would still be a matter of Ecclesiastic Discipline, and not a matter of faith or morals non sequitur].

Obj. 4 It still seems as though this division between faith and morals, and discipline, is fabricated, for we can take any statement, and find for it a more basic theological or moral statement, and so on, until we come to a singular natural law. As such only one or very few statements would be statements of faith and morals, and the Church could declare nothing as infallible, for she cannot create something more fundamental than what is**…what?]**. But this clearly cannot be so. As such, the teaching on contraception may still be a matter of morals.

Reply Obj. 1 Any declaration of a matter of discipline includes a matter of discipline, and so is itself disciplinary. :confused: - what’s your point supposed to be here?] So statements that try to bind ecclesiastical discipline as a matter of faith or morals cannot be considered a statement of faith and morals. A statement by the Church that its teaching on contraception is a moral teaching cannot be a teaching based on faith.

Reply Obj. 2 The Philosopher has indeed considered virtue such, but virtue as doing the right thing (moral principle) in the right way for the right reasons to the right person with the right method, and this is discipline [discipline?? - false - this describes the necessity of phronesis to the making of sound moral judgments]. So not all actions ?] that deal with virtue are of themselves moral principles, but can be composites of said principles [this is sheer nonsense - how can an action be a composite of principles? - and regardless, what is your point?].

Reply Obj. 3 As has been shown above, not all statements that involve what cannot be seen are statements of faith. The positive law, properly, cannot be directly seen, [neither can the natural law be directly seen in the relevant sense - which would obviously be a lot more relevant to mention here! - unless you’re just trying to beg the whole question here? - very unclear] but it is not properly a matter of faith. So the Church’s teaching on contraception may be a teaching based in discipline [or morals!] and still may not be seen.

Reply Obj. 4 Firstly, as St. Thomas Aquinas states in the Summa Theologica, Prima Secundae Partis, Q.94, Art.2 “The precepts of the natural law in man stand in relation to practical matters, as the first principles to matters of demonstration. But there are several first indemonstrable principles. Therefore there are also several precepts of the natural law.” [so you are presuming that the purpose of the marital act is the begetting of children is an indemonstrable first principle?? - why would you (anyone) think that?] These indemonstrable principles are the province of moral teaching. *What follows from them in their particular application is a matter of prudence, and so is disciplinary. [so, “if a matter of prudence, then merely disciplinary (not a matter of morals)”?? - non sequitur - to act against prudence (imprudently) is to act against reason is to act against the moral law]
 
Betterave,

Thank you for your careful reading of Article 2. I will go through it and edit it with care. Most of your suggestions (especially about Objection 3, which I think I will withdraw) merit changes in the article. Some of your suggestions I either do not understand or (of course) disagree with, and so will not result in changes.

I will submit a third revised version of Article 2, hopefully by the end of the week. It appears as though three or four hours of work are involved in repairing its problems.
 
Never mind this point then. Consider my position about the lack of infallibility in this case intractable, and ignore the first article, if you wish.

I believe, in any case, I have replied well to your objections. I don’t think any more about this issue needs to be said, or that it is useful to say anything more on this issue (at least along this line; if you wish to produce another line of reasoning about this, you are welcome to).

At least at the angle concerned, the horse is dead.
Fair enough. I will assume that you have retracted your earlier claims and become a hardened fundamentalist about this issue and not bother trying to further rationally engage with you on it. I do believe, however, that you did not reply at all to my objection (and a fortiori you didn’t reply well). 🙂
 
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