Natural Moral Law

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I am trying to come up with some examples of natural moral law. For example, when someone says, “All morality is relative,” I want to be able to give them examples of situations that are–obviously and unassailably–wrong (or right) regardless of one’s opinion about them. So far, I have come up with two.

I think this is an essential (albiet philosophical point): if there are things that are true, regardless of our opinons, then there is Truth, i.e. an objecitve moral truth that must, by virtue of it’s existence, have an origin is something beyond humankind. If we can use our reason to ascertain these moral truths…you see where I am going with this.

I realize this is not original thinking from me. What I want are examples to ‘prove’ that there are objective moral truths that can be ascertained by human reason. If you can think of some, have at it…but (for purposes of our discussion) be prepared to ‘defend’ them from relativistic attacks.

Have some coffee first. 🙂
 
I am trying to come up with some examples of natural moral law. For example, when someone says, “All morality is relative,” I want to be able to give them examples of situations that are–obviously and unassailably–wrong (or right) regardless of one’s opinion about them. So far, I have come up with two.

I think this is an essential (albiet philosophical point): if there are things that are true, regardless of our opinons, then there is Truth, i.e. an objecitve moral truth that must, by virtue of it’s existence, have an origin is something beyond humankind. If we can use our reason to ascertain these moral truths…you see where I am going with this.

I realize this is not original thinking from me. What I want are examples to ‘prove’ that there are objective moral truths that can be ascertained by human reason. If you can think of some, have at it…but (for purposes of our discussion) be prepared to ‘defend’ them from relativistic attacks.

Have some coffee first. 🙂
If that was the case, then we wouldn’t have a whole branch of philosophy related to moral relativity, and nihilists would we?

Things that are true, some would argue is true in so far as we understand it to be. Scientific truths for e.g. are believed to be true and depended on because in terms of practical use it falls within specific laws that have been reasoned out, but at times these laws have shown to be broken in extreme circumstances.

I think there are objective moral truths, but it’s not clear cut, and it’s nothing concrete that everyone would agree with, and even if people did agree with, it wouldn’t necessarily point to an existence of a deity, an atheist could simply pull out David Hume’s observation:
In every system of morality, which I have hitherto met with, I have always remark’d, that the author proceeds for some time in the ordinary way of reasoning, and establishes the being of a God, or makes observations concerning human affairs; when of a sudden I am surpriz’d to find, that instead of the usual copulations of propositions, is, and is not, I meet with no proposition that is not connected with an ought, or an ought not. This change is imperceptible; but is, however, of the last consequence. For as this ought, or ought not, expresses some new relation or affirmation, 'tis necessary that it shou’d be observ’d and explain’d ; and at the same time that a reason should be given, for what seems altogether inconceivable, how this new relation can be a deduction from others, which are entirely different from it.
And I’m inclined to agree with him, I’m not quite sure why you are looking for objective moral truths in the first place, is it for proof of God? I think using abductive reasoning is a better way to go about it.

I also don’t think it’s a fully stable argument that one of yours, first define what truth is, and what kind of truth are we talking about? Argumentation for objective moral truth would be different to scientific truth. Why must an objective moral truth by virtue of its existence have something beyond human-kind?

Cheers
 
Michaeljc, I think you’re talking about two different things: natural law and absolute truth.

Natural law is the premise that people and things work best when they are treated in accord with their nature. So, for example, if you want a tomato plant to flourish, you have to give it water and sunlight. These things are required by the plant’s nature in order for the plant to thrive. If you decide not to treat the plant in accord with it’s nature, if, for example, you want to keep your tomato plant in your bedroom closet and water it once a year, it will wither and die.

Natural law holds that the natural aspects of plants and animals and people are good and that they serve a purpose. Thus, birds have wings so they can fly. It is good that they can fly. Humans have a digestive system so that we can consume food and acquire calories to burn for energy. It is good that we are able to do this, our digestive system helps us thrive.

Natural law is one of the ways the Church deduces her understanding of the purpose of sex and marriage. It enables us to learn why contraception and bulemia are wrong. It helps us learn all manner of things. Unfortunately, as Janet Smith has pointed out, our reasoning is so clouded by cultural messages that we aren’t always able to discern what is natural and good and what is not.

Absolute truth, on the other hand, is the idea that truth exists, and that not everything is relative. There are situations or actions that are always objectively good or evil, and it does not depend on whether any particular person agrees with it or not. Many times, these are also situations which people instinctively discern as right or wrong, so in that sense, you might say it was a natural law (i.e., written on man’s conscience). An example of this might be the statement that “It is always wrong for someone to torture an innocent child for fun.” The “always” makes it absolute. The qualifications “innocent” and “for fun” make is difficult, if not impossible, to think of a situation in which this would not be true. (A person with skewed moral standards might say that it was acceptable to torture an innocent child if it would save hundreds of other innocent children, for example). But in my opinion, that’s about as concrete as you can get unless the person you’re discussing with shares at least some of the same values.

There is an excellent resource on the topic of natural law and sexual ethics, if you’re interested. In her talk, Janet Smith argues that we can ascertain moral truths about sexuality just by thinking logically about it. I highly, highly recommend it: goodmorals.org/smith5.htm

God bless.
 
Laws of Nature – the physical actions in the universe

Natural Law – the design of men/animals in all forms ( as survival)

Natural [Moral] Law – referred to in the Church as Natural Law. Is the moral knowledge placed in all men before their birth.

Now for the OP issues of non relative Natural Moral Law : Murder / unjust killing, Stealing in any and all forms, Lying, Oppressing others, Jealousy, Greed, Envy, Lust, Gluttony, Sloth, Pride : All would have to be acceptable and even desirable at the correct times and places on the sliding relative moral scale. To find any of these as intrinsically evil would disprove the concept sliding moral scale.

btw – for me the best logic for Natural Moral Law is the atheist who obeys the Law while denying the Law exists
 
Absolute truth, on the other hand, is the idea that truth exists, and that not everything is relative. There are situations or actions that are always objectively good or evil, and it does not depend on whether any particular person agrees with it or not. Many times, these are also situations which people instinctively discern as right or wrong, so in that sense, you might say it was a natural law (i.e., written on man’s conscience).
Natural [Moral] Law – referred to in the Church as Natural Law. Is the moral knowledge placed in all men before their birth.
I was thinking of Natural Moral Law, and my question (mangled as it may have been) was about examples of acts that are objectively good, or objectively evil, regardless of culture or opinion. Torturing babies for fun, for example, is wrong: always. Everywhere. Forever. Period. There is no situation where torturing a baby for fun would be okay, ever. The question then becomes, to what moral principle are we appealing when we all recognize such an activity is inherently, and objectively, evil? Where did this ‘knowing’ come from? (Obviously, as a Catholic, I believe that this moral knowledge comes from God). This particular example shows that not all morality is relative, and that there are laws that we can discern with our (God-given) reason. If we can identify instances of objective moral certainty, we can go a long way toward disarming those who believe that all morality is relative. Does that make sense?

My other example (I have heard the torturing babies one) was genocide. There is no example of a moral justification for genocide. We all ‘know’ that genocide is wrong. Period. Every time. There exists a moral precept that is beyond our opinions about it…so my question to a moral relativist would be, where does this moral precept originate?

Other examples?
 
Hi Michaeljc4,

I won’t exactly answer the question you posed, I just wanted to point out that if your intention is to debate people who claim “all morality is relative,” then it would be good to be sensitive to what they are trying to assert.

In the first place, English is usually pretty imprecise, so when people say all morality is relative, they can mean any number of things. For example, “all” usually refers to a vague or even undefined domain of discourse, and if you press your opponents to specify that domain with examples, the odds are they will hit you with some cases from sexual morality. If that happens, then what their thesis really comes to is just that sexual morality is relative, and so it’s no good bringing up torture or other intrinsically evil acts. But in all likelihood, their thesis doesn’t even amount to so much, since everyone either knows or will soon find out that cheating in a relationship is wrong. So what their thesis now means is only that certain propositions of sexual morality are relative. Even here, the statement is imprecise because your opponents haven’t said what these propositions are relative to. I don’t know of anyone, for example, who has claimed that some principles of sexual morality are true in winter but not in summer.

But even putting aside the obstacles involved in trying to think clearly with ordinary English, there are some philosophical terms whose meanings need to be clarified before a real debate is possible. The most important of these is the simple word “act.” Unfortunately, when most people think of acts, what they have in mind is just a sort of moving picture of somebody doing something. The problem with such a picture is that it omits two out of the three factors that determine the moral value of an action. (In moral theological terms, you cannot see the objects or ends of actions). The result of such an idea of acts is that morality becomes relative: relative, indeed, to objects and ends. So in order to get the better of your opponent in a debate, it is necessary to point out that what you, a Natural Lawyer, mean by “act” is a very complex thing. For you, an act properly so called, involves reason deliberating about ends and proposing to the will an object which, if chosen, becomes manifest in an external deed (where “deed” corresponds to what your opponent means by “act.”) And when you say there are moral absolutes, what you mean is that some objects are not fit to be chosen.

So in a debate with a moral relativist, the main problem is not to prove them wrong, but to open their minds to a profound system of moral psychology. If you succeed in explaining this psychology to them, they will probably recognize the existence of moral absolutes without any further help.
 
I am trying to come up with some examples of natural moral law. For example, when someone says, “All morality is relative,” I want to be able to give them examples of situations that are–obviously and unassailably–wrong (or right) regardless of one’s opinion about them. So far, I have come up with two.
\QUOTE]

As some have pointed out, there are some good exmaples of moral assertions that pretty much no would would disagree with such as the truth of the assertion “slavery is evil.” There are of course others that are hard to get agreement about. The amount of disagreement on moral questions explains many people’s skepticism about the possibility of being justified in believing that even such assertions as “slavery is evil” are true, but there is a practical limit to how much disagreement there can be on morals. Philospher of religion Jeffrey Stout says that disagreement on morals can never be total. “If somebody’s criteria of goodness were said to be completely different from ours, we would then lack any good reason for concluding that we were in fact disagreeing about goodness.” At some point, people’s disagreements become so deep that neither party would even recognize what they are disagreeing about as morals. So “disagreement in fact only makes sense against a background of agreements to which disputants can appeal.”

This limit on disagreement is also a practical limit for the notion of relativism which says that justification of ethical assertions and moral truth itself can apply only with respect to a particular group that shares a set of fundamental beliefs. Relativism says that what may be wrong for one group based on its fundamental assumptions may not be wrong for another group whose moral reasoning is based on different assumptions. Stout’s limit on disagreement says that if everything that is said to be evil for one group is said to be good by another, perhaps the word “good” has been mistranslated as “evil.” Two groups that disagree on all the basic assumptions their moral reasoning follows could not even be said to be disagreeing about morals, so there must be at least some common ground that we can appeal to in comparing the morality of two cultures. Relativism can’t go all the way down.

Though he argues that our situation can not be quite as hopelessly relativistic as some claim, he would admit that the above argument is not saying very much. In his book, Ethics After Babel, Stout does not try to argue that nihilism, relativism, and skepticism are false. Instead he takes on the more modest task of arguing that we are not forced to be moral nihilists, moral relativists, or moral skeptics. He denies being a moral nihilist early on when he claims the he believes that there are moral truths that can be known. He said “I hold that slavery—understood as the coercive practice of buying, selling, and exercising complete control over other human beings against their will—is evil. This proposition hasn’t always been believed to be true, of course, just as it hasn’t always been held that the earth is roundish, but the truth of the matter is that the earth is roundish.” He says this to make a point about moral propositions—that moral propositions can be true or false and that believing them or not is independent of their truth-value.

Stout also denies being a moral skeptic. This is to say that he not only believes that there is such a thing as moral truth, he also believes that it is possible to be justified in believing some moral assertions to be true. In other words, it is possible to know at least some moral truths to whatever extent we can know scientific truths. We go about trying to discern moral truths and scientific truths in very different ways, and we justify our beliefs about moral and scientific truths in very different ways, but there is nothing very different about how we use the word “true” when we apply it to moral assertions or scientific assertions. Though the assertions “it is true that slavery is evil” and “it is true that the earth is roundish” are very different sorts of assertions, the word “true” functions in the same way in both sentences.

But why is it that there seems to be so much agreement on science and so much disagreement on morals? Is our epistemic situation when it comes to so-called “subjective” moral assertions any worse off than our epistemic situation is when it comes to scientific “objective” assertions? Part of the issue that makes these situations seem so different to us is probably that our conversations about morals tend to be about our disagreements while our conversations about science focus on explaining what has been agreed to within the scientific community. However, within that community, we would find that the conversations are more likely to revolve around scientist’s disagreements, especially during times of scientific revolution, since it is in such areas where the interesting most scientific work will be done.

Professional scientists at these times are like the political pundits, seeming to disagree on just about everything, but their disagreements only make sense within a context where they share enough beliefs in common that they can agree that they are in fact disagreeing. Likewise, the interesting conversations that we want to have about morality will not be mostly about whether we should be honest, whether murder is wrong, or whether it is good to be lazy, but about, say, how our value of personal freedom should be balanced with the value of human solidarity. If we didn’t already largely agree on the good of such values, we wouldn’t be able to have a conversation about how to balance them. We should compare the disagreement on issues like abortion to scientificly unsettled issues like the origin of the universe rather than to the shape of the earth.
 
A second issue comparing agreement in ethics with that of science is who is expected to agree. We generally call scientific knowledge “objective,” since scientists are in agreement on what is knowledge, while the knowledge of an ethicist is called “subjective” when she can’t get agreement with such hypothetical conversation partners as “the Nazi” and “the sociopath” and “the Cartesian skeptic” who is not sure whether he is a brain in a vat. Scientists aren’t expected to have to answer for such bogey-men, while moral philosophers are. Scientists are only expected to be able to convince other scientists who have been acculturated into a narrow field with specialized training. Kuhn pointed out that this training involves door-keeping where only those who see things largely the same way get in at all, so it is no wonder that they are in agreement on one another’s work. “The Nazi” or “the sociopath” or a small child isn’t expected to be able to go into a lab and evaluate an experiment that a scientist has just performed to verify the truth of what the scientist has claimed. They are not considered to be competent observers. Yet, in ethics, we have been taught to demand a foundation for ethical arguments that will make them so convincing as to convince even these moral incompetents of their truth. We should stop demanding such a foundation for knowledge in ethics if we are satisified in claiming knowledge using a less universal standard in science.
I think this is an essential (albiet philosophical point): if there are things that are true, regardless of our opinons, then there is Truth, i.e. an objecitve moral truth that must, by virtue of it’s existence, have an origin is something beyond humankind. If we can use our reason to ascertain these moral truths…you see where I am going with this.
Stout confidently deploys the concept of truth without feeling that he needs a foundation in a theory of truth to back up his use of the word. He thinks “truth” functions in language well enough without having such a theory that explains what makes a moral proposition true such as a correspondence to some Moral Law. He says, “I do object to the idea that we can explain what it is for moral propositions to be true by saying that they correspond to the Law, since the relation of correspondence invoked by such an explanation doesn’t seem clear enough to explain anything…To say that a moral proposition corresponds to the Moral Law doesn’t obviously add anything more than a well-worn figure of speech–anything of explanatory value–to saying that the proposition is true.”

If there were some way to “look directly, without help from variable tradition-bound presuppositions, at the Moral Law and then back again at our beliefs, surveying the relations for instances or failures of correspondence” we would be better off for believing in a Moral Law. But our epistemic situation is such that the existence or non-existence of a Moral Law is of no consequence. So an absolutist may be someone who believes in such a Law while a relativist is one who claims that such a law does not exist. A pragmatist is neither one of these. A pragmatist doesn’t see the point in arguing the issue since even if such essences as the Moral Law exist, they don’t get us anywhere.

Stout has given a typical pragmatic argument against essentialism, but he has not, as pragmatists are often accused of having done, given up on the concept of truth or conflated truth with justification. He says, “…my talk about moral disagreement makes sense only if I grant that there is some truth of the matter in ethics to disagree over and only if I am prepared to say of people who disagree with me over the truth of a proposition that it is they who are wrong…if there are flat-earthers, people who are wrong about important scientific truths, why shouldn’t there be societies that are wrong about important moral truths?”

Where pragmatists may be in some sense relativists is when they assert, as Stout does, that deciding “…which moral propositions you are justified in believing depends upon or is relative to where you find yourself in culture and history.” So in this view, the truth of a moral proposition does not depend on the culture within which the assertion is made, but the practice of justification, on the other hand, does depend on an epistemic situation which has a lot to do with time and place and even facts about the specific person who is justifying a belief. Saying so makes justification sound “just subjective,” but these facts about the person are still facts nonetheless.

Best,
Leela
 
Geez, Leela. I’m not sure I followed all of that. I don’t have a formal educational background in ethics. I may need to…digest all of that a bit. If my nose stops bleeding…🙂
 
Hi Leela

I thank you for your post though honestly I have a great deal of trouble with it. Here is why: let’s look at your “flat–earth believer” now we have 2 quick problems 1) an overwhelming amount of contradictory evidence, and 2)all human knowledge referred to as “facts” are indeed beliefs. So using the second part we see that his belief is indeed a belief as is our counter belief. So if our knowledge and flat–earth believer’s knowledge are equal then we would be at a stalemate however our knowledge is not equal. So using the unequal knowledge we can correctly conclude that flat–earth believer’s position is more than weak. Now the most important issue at hand is this, our superior knowledge does not make flat–earth believer’s position change. He may well continue to hold his incorrect position. His position may hold the status of fact in his mind. However holding something as fact within the mind is not the appropriate standard.

So let’s look at arguing on flat–earth believer’s behalf. 1) A string is pulled taut 90 degrees from gravity flat–earth believer’s measurements under the string show all measures as linear and thus no measurable crown, so he concludes a science base exists for his fact. 2) Flat–earth believer shows dozens of people who also believe the earth is factually flat. He asserts that their full life and their various ages show people who accept the flat earth “fact” show no depreciation in quality of life. Now I must assert to you this condition is your so defined “pragmatic”. I would also like to assert to you this a classic example of “disordered thought”.

Now from that point of view I would again repeat the standard a moral relative must hold “all behaviors must be accepted as moral in some context”. So the OP’s challenge is really the disorder thought verses the intrinsic evil. For example if I say can the moral relativist accept the feeding of human babies as animal food the relativist must conclude that in proper context it is moral behavior but I conclude any such context can only exist in disordered thought. So suppose the relativist finds an actual case in which this has happened and the person feels no moral turmoil does that uphold the moral relativism? No, because again the overwhelming evidence shows only in a state of disordered thought can this behavior be accepted.

And now the final dismissal; Can people’s disordered thoughts be the proof of moral relativism? No, and the reason is the earth is round. With disordered thought one can believe anything to be true and anything to be false, however (again) since the overwhelming evidence shows the earth to be round the proper selection is to accept the flat earth belief as disordered and reject it as moral truth.

Hope that helps
 
Natural Law
Natural Law is “a law that is in principle accessible to human reason and not dependent on (though entirely compatible with and, indeed, illumined by) divine revelation.” (The Clash of Orthodoxies, Professor Robert P George (Princeton),2001, p 169).

So that’s where you have to start – with reason. Fides et ratio will complete the equation.

Unlike Karl Rahner’s ideas, there is general agreement that human nature is, in significant respects, indeterminate, unchanging, and structured. The objection that the idea of natural law is incompatible with a legitimate range of human freedom, ways of life, and diversity of choices presupposes a moral obligation to respect freedom and diversity as a matter not of mere convention, but of natural justice or natural rights. It is because human beings can act upon reasons provided by the basic goods of human nature that they possess the capacity for free choice, and are capable of understanding the moral law, a law of practical reasonableness, constituted by principles of right reason in practical affairs.

Those who understand the natural moral law do maintain, however, that on certain fundamental moral and political issues, there are uniquely correct answers. They cite the human rights against being enslaved, for example, or being punished for one’s religious beliefs, and against deliberate feticide and other forms of direct killing of innocent persons. On matters such as these, errors of reason must be responsible for anyone’s failure to arrive at the morally correct positions. Possible roots of such errors include prejudice which may be pervasive in a culture or sub-culture and also, logical failures or other errors in the reasoning process which can cloud judgment as in any other field of inquiry. Ignorance of, or inattention to, relevant facts or values may result in error.

Take an example:
Fr Harvey (The Truth About Homosexulaity, Ignatius, 1990, p 134-138) shows that the act of homosexual intercourse lacks the two components that make sexual intercourse natural:
  1. The gastrointestinal tract is a hole running through the body – oral or anal intercourse remains on the surface and is not inside the human being in the way that vaginal intercourse is about a real physical union.
  2. Since the homosexual act cannot be procreative it cannot unify those engaged in it by tending toward a child who will have characteristics of both parents.
Homosexual acts are ipso facto unnatural – against the natural moral law.
 
Take an example:
Fr Harvey (The Truth About Homosexulaity, Ignatius, 1990, p 134-138) shows that the act of homosexual intercourse lacks the two components that make sexual intercourse natural:
  1. The gastrointestinal tract is a hole running through the body – oral or anal intercourse remains on the surface and is not inside the human being in the way that vaginal intercourse is about a real physical union.
Homosexual acts are ipso facto unnatural – against the natural moral law.
I’ve never been a fan of this argument. Topologically, same-sex sexual behaviors remain on the surface, yes. . . but so does everything else. Basically, if you don’t take some scissors and cut a hole in someone, then anything you do is on the surface, including vaginal intercourse.

More compelling examples of natural law arguments can be found in the Catechism under “lying” or “suicide.”

If you’re discussing natural law and moral relativism in general, it’s super important to stay away from sexual examples. People feel much too strongly about sex to think clearly about it.
 
That is precisely why they need the reasons. The whole purpose of reason is to understand who we are, and why we ought to act in certain ways and not others. Instead of “self-esteem”, we need self control.

The world is in such a mess because people don’t reason correctly, or reject the reasonable for selfism – they don’t understand how they are harmed and harm others by their actions. This permeates marriage, the family, society and nations. Certainly we need faith and reason for real success in conquering our fallen nature, but it is because of poor or false formation in thinking that we act foolishly. As you think so do you act.
 
I am trying to come up with some examples of natural moral law. For example, when someone says, “All morality is relative,” I want to be able to give them examples of situations that are–obviously and unassailably–wrong (or right) regardless of one’s opinion about them. So far, I have come up with two.

I think this is an essential (albiet philosophical point): if there are things that are true, regardless of our opinons, then there is Truth, i.e. an objecitve moral truth that must, by virtue of it’s existence, have an origin is something beyond humankind. If we can use our reason to ascertain these moral truths…you see where I am going with this.

I realize this is not original thinking from me. What I want are examples to ‘prove’ that there are objective moral truths that can be ascertained by human reason. If you can think of some, have at it…but (for purposes of our discussion) be prepared to ‘defend’ them from relativistic attacks.

Have some coffee first. 🙂
Hm…it seems that the reasoning you give in the second paragraph may be somewhat fallacious, depending on what you mean about objective moral truth. If there are some objective truths in the universe, then you might be right in saying that objective statements can be made about morality (i.e. right and wrong are objective or figments of our imagination). However, if you mean that objective truth implies we have objective moral obligations, that is an entirely different matter. Even if there are objective truths in the universe, moral obligations may not be among them.

(Oh, and for a moment, take God out of the picture, since you’re probably dealing with an atheist.)

I have a system of beliefs that I developed after taking an ethics class at college. It sounds plausible, but many may not be willing to accept it. Take it with a grain of salt.

In an atheistic universe, many moral theories are “fair game”. However, I don’t think any of the objective, nontheistic moral theories are correct. If you use the Socratic method, then each of them sounds equally implausible.

(i.e. “Why is an act good?” “Because an act is good if and only if it produces the most happiness (pseudo-utilitarianism).” “Well, why should I believe that?” “Because it is self-evident. [This is one response I’ve heard].” “It’s not self-evident to me. Why is it self-evident?” And so on…)

So if you try to argue for an objective moral theory apart from a non-atheistic framework, there’s not much to argue about. There’s a bigger problem at hand here. Does some god exist? If so, what kind of god(s) is/are exist? You have to delve into this deeper metaphysical problem in order to attack this issue.

Anyway, that’s my belief. Hope that helps.
KrazyKaiju
 
…In an atheistic universe, many moral theories are “fair game”. However, I don’t think any of the objective, nontheistic moral theories are correct. If you use the Socratic method, then each of them sounds equally implausible.

(i.e. “Why is an act good?” “Because an act is good if and only if it produces the most happiness (pseudo-utilitarianism).” “Well, why should I believe that?” “Because it is self-evident. [This is one response I’ve heard].” “It’s not self-evident to me. Why is it self-evident?” And so on…)
This Socratic Method applies in both directions. For example, is an act good because God commands it or does God command an act because it is good?

Best,
Leela
 
This Socratic Method applies in both directions. For example, is an act good because God commands it or does God command an act because it is good?

Best,
Leela
I think there’s a way around the Euphythro dilemma, though. I read something that speculated that goodness is simply part of God’s nature, rather than something separate (or something along those lines). I can’t remember the solution in its entirety, but I’ll get back to you as soon as I can, though.

Regardless, the Socratic Method can still be applied here.
 
I think there’s a way around the Euphythro dilemma, though. I read something that speculated that goodness is simply part of God’s nature, rather than something separate (or something along those lines). I can’t remember the solution in its entirety, but I’ll get back to you as soon as I can, though.

Regardless, the Socratic Method can still be applied here.
Is goodness a part of God’s nature because it is good or is goodness good because it is a part of God’s nature? 🙂

Sure the Socratic Method still applies on both sides of the question and we could both go on and on claiming to be skeptical about every claim that the other makes. This process makes me skeptical about the possibility of discovering Truth at the end of all these questions. The point for Socrates who claimed “I know nothing” is that neither did the person he was questioning. In fact, this whole idea that we need an ahistorical foundation for our claims about what is good is what needs to be questioned since unless you believe that you have some special access to The Moral Law such that we could compare a moral assertion to this Law to test to for agreement, it does no good to argue about whether such a thing exists “out there.” Plus, even if you did think you have access to this Law, I would remain skeptical about your claim and would take you to be no better off epistemologically than I am.

Best,
Leela
 
In the Encyclical Fides et Ratio (Faith and Reason, 1998), strikingly addressed only to “the Bishops of the Catholic Church”, Pope John Paul II opens with: “Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth;” and in section 5, the Holy Father says that “the Church considers philosophy an indispensable help for a deeper understanding of faith and for communicating the truth of the Gospel to those who do not yet know it.” This is the heart of the matter: heart must speak to heart, on the level of reason to be able to spread the Gospel to those who do not know it. There is no conflict, and there can be none, between Faith and right Reason.

Professor Robert P George, in The Clash of Orthodoxies, 2001, describes “the secularist orthodoxy” as including “isms” such as feminism, multiculturalism, gay liberationism, lifestyle liberalism. The secularists claim that the war is between “faith” and “reason”, but Catholic moral teaching can be shown to be rationally superior to secularist moral beliefs.

The false supposition in this is that faithful Catholics support a morality based on teaching, but somehow not on reasoned thought! The question of the reasons for our promotion of a particular moral stand on a particular issue, or related set of issues, is a matter for the mind and logical thought, not for the will, nor for the emotions, although the will may be required to overrule the emotions so as to accept and to follow the results of the logic of reason.

What is at stake is the essence of the law of nature or the natural moral law. The objective is to be able to answer all of the commonly held and promoted false opinions on abortion, homosexuality, euthanasia, IVF, stem cell research (SCR) and more, on the basis of human reason. Doctrine enables us to be infallibly certain of what reason upholds, for it is false reasoning and/or uncontrolled emotions and wills, which have produced so many terrible assaults on mankind since time began.
 
I used to think that I wanted to study philosophy, but I got intellectual nosebleeds just because of such things that are listed here in this thread.

I wanted to sample some discussion on this subject, because I’m reading a Jewish book on ethics and morals titled “Love your neighbor and yourself.” I think the author is Duff.

He attributed to Thomas Aquinas the injection of “natural law” into Christian ethics and morality. Overtly, he dismisses natural law because it seems to be so subjective, depending on who you ask to define it.

I have always had a hollow feeling about NL because of that reason.

I’m just getting into that book. I think he has a relatively easy job in defining Jewish moral standards because there are so many starting points in the Jewish scriptures – the existence of God, the creation of mankind in His image. And, he has the luxury of appealing to thousands of years of debate on many issues of moral obligation. But, the key is, he has a starting point.

Perhaps the issue of natural law is misplaced and we need to discuss what are respective starting points and values are. Then, and only then, can we possibly agree on what is natural.

Yes, it is true, I’m hardly on the first rung of the discussion.
 
Crumpy
Perhaps the issue of natural law is misplaced
No, it is not “misplaced”. The natural moral law is God’s ordinance as to how mankind ought to act, and enables the vision of reality in this world – to act in accordance with the natural moral law is to act by the reality of things – that is sanity.

From the Encyclopedia of Catholic Doctrine, Our Sunday Visitor:
Our human nature (which points us to our natural perfection or to the fundamental human goods) and our reason (by which we understand that these goods are to be pursued) are both created by God. Thus, our nature and our reason together are directives from God, ordering (orienting) us to our good and to the attainment of part of God’s plan. Following St. Thomas Aquinas, the Catechism of the Catholic Church defines law in general – a definition of law that will apply to any type of law, whether it be civil law, Church law, or some other law – as “a rule of conduct enacted by competent authority for the sake of the common good” (CCC 1951). Since God is the ruler of the whole universe, and God created our reason and human nature, those basic moral truths are rightly called natural moral law.
 
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