Nature and the Fall

[Benadam]

Here’s an interesting article you might consider reading,

Reconciling Contemporary Science and the Doctrine of Original Sin

Thanks mVitus. Father Spencer’s website I think. He does a good job of adapting theology to the discoveries of science that become certain facts. He has a wonderful way of explaining things . Nothing like a Physicist/Priest.

 

[BlackFriar]

Well, after checking on my understanding (from 30 years ago) I have to admit your intuitions are correct. The Church does not have a settled position on this point afterall and in fact Aquinas has a different position from which I recalled.

That is, the loss of Original Justice (meaning death entered the World) while it certainly applied to Man did not necessarily mean death was not already present in paradise.

As to the question as to whether the Fall caused further ills in nature (the earth, the animal kingdom) there is no clear teaching as you discerned.

 

[Reuben_J]

It seems to me that nature is cruel, filled with suffering. I presume this is due to the fall. Otherwise this does not seem to be a world made by a benevolent creator.

It seems to be that way.

The perfect world was paradise, the Garden of Eden, of which our first parents were expelled from.

Due to sin, they forfeited Eden, and lived in the fallen world. Perhaps that was a foreshadow of what sin can do to us - that we will forfeit our inheritance - the heavenly Kingdom and to live separately from God our Creator in an eternal damnation.

 

[rose321]

Genesis: “Cursed is the ground because of you"

and 2000 years of common commentary by the Fathers and Doctors of the Church plus the teaching of the Councils and Popes and Catechisms on this truth is good enough for me.

Respectfully opinion. Questioning and examining.

The word benevolent means. well meaning, kindly, kind heart, good nature,compassionate, generous, beneficent, charitable, unselfish, open handed, munificent, magnanimous.

Genesis: Curse is the ground because of you.

Does not sound like a Infinite, >>Holy Loving Benevolent Father>>> His own Spoken Word, tells us, He created all that is Good, calling it very Good, does He?

Our Heavenly Father who tells us <>not to curse others, why would He transgress his own laws, by cursing others?

Those he dearly Love’s, he lovingly created us in His own image, did He not?
Would our Loving Benevolent Father, be transgressing his own Laws, by cursing us?

Our Infinite Loving benevolent Father, who is the fullness of Love, All Holy, Pure Holy Perfection within, His own Eternal Spiritual Being, of infinite Wisdom, does not curse his own Goodness He created, does he?
Would that make him a transgressor of his own Laws?

Our Heavenly Father seeks not His loving children to suffer, does he?
Nor does a Holy Loving Benevolent Father, curse his children, does he?

Maybe our falling is, in not knowing Our Heavenly Father, in failing to realize? Teach and make aware?
Make known?

Or fail to mention, or fully know the character image of the one, who seeks and takes great pleasure in innocent suffering, destruction in >>>> destroying>>> His Spoken Word, Truth Spoken, of our Loving Benevolent Father’s Household in all living and Life form? His beloved children?

No, All Loving, All Holy, All benevolent Father, could ever take such pleasure in destroying what He tells us

All Life is sacred unto me in the Blood, destroy not?
Cultivate the earth nourish and care for?
Multiply and be fruitful?
Our Loving benevolent Father, all Holy, would not take such pleasures in cursing others, or his own creation, or in seeing such innocent suffering, deaths, now would he?

Peace

Nor could a Loving Benevolent, Truthful Father, who commands his own children, not to curse, then curse his own children?
Curse his own creation in all Life forms?
Curse the very ground we all walk upon, could he?

Peace

 

[rose321]

It seems to me that nature is cruel, filled with suffering. I presume this is due to the fall.

Respectfully opinion only when questioning and examining, his own actions taken when he walked the earth, with His own Spoken Words given, historically or other wise, that nature is not cruel filled with suffering, for he told us the wheat grow among the tares did he not?

He came to identify, make known, teach such truths, teaching the opposite, came to show us all, throughout His teaching, preaching, Spoken Word, the way to end such innocent suffering, the root cause of such destruction, loss of innocent life, did he not,he takes no pleasure in, does he not? If he did why did he himself come to save?

Wheat grow among the tares?
Truth vs lies?
Truth sets us free vs lies seek to hold us in bondage?

In the end all truths will be known, is this not written?
Let your ears hear what the Spirit says…is this not written?
Jeremiah 31:31;34, I Will ( meaning not man?) will teach you and all will>>know>> me a prophecy is it not?

Jesus came to make known, such truths, that one who curses, is not the one who comes to save, is it? Peace

 

[Shakuhachi]

Maybe our falling is, in not knowing Our Heavenly Father, in failing to realize? Teach and make aware?

Make known?

Or fail to mention, or fully know the character image of the one, who seeks and takes great pleasure in innocent suffering, destruction in >>>> destroying>>> His Spoken Word, Truth Spoken, of our Loving Benevolent Father’s Household in all living and Life form? His beloved children?

Yes, all this attention to trying to make sense of a literal interpretation of the fall distracts us from a more full reflection on what is actually being symbolized and spoken of. And it leads to a victim mentality: we (and the whole earth) suffer because of this one act at the beginning of history.

The fall is still happening and we each have a share and responsibility for it when we put our own ego, desires and will before God and others. We fall when we live as if God does not see or walk along side us.

 

[rose321]

literal interpretation

Respectfully opinion and in asking kindly>>first want one to be aware >>I do not >>>take the bible literally for it is filled with metaphors, parables, written throughout? Written over many many generations. Written by many different hands of men, in different times and eras throughout generations also, would this be true? etc

Our Heavenly Father, would he be proactive?
Our Loving Father Creator of all Life forms, infinite Wisdom, knowing our beginnings, past, present and future, end does he not?

Would Our Heavenly Father, being all knowing, be proactive, having known all that was to come? He does tell us, in the end>>He is Victorious?
He tells us also, do onto others what they would want done unto you?
So does that mean those who set out to deceive others will be deceived also?

Our Heavenly Father all knowing>>Jeremiah 8:8> Jesus preaching> Let your ears hear what the Holy Spirit says…?
What did our Heavenly Father mean by that?
Jesus time came, in telling us, it is not what one reads, how we will come to >.know him?
Jesus himself being the author of His Spoken Word given to>>
Jeremiah 8:8 ?

Jeremiah 31:31-34 days are coming… I Will, circumcise all hearts of flesh and all will>>know>>me? Our Loving Father tells us, we will need no one to teach you, I Will and all will …know me?

Help if one chooses to correct would

The fall is still happening and we each have a share and responsibility for it when we put our own ego, desires and will before God and others. We fall when we live as if God does not see or walk along side us.

Fully agree with this!! All are called to share and take responsibility!

Our Loving Father does not preach about us falling, to be important, does he? What is seriously important to ones eternal soul is that we come to>> know >> Our Heavenly Father? Then we will know who is not of him?

Was Jesus, preaching, teaching did he want us to >>know>> thyself within? Jesus gives us his instructions, to sweep ones house clean? Our Loving Father’s whole preaching and teaching, was it about>> Rising back up? Restore what is fractured within us, make our selves whole> wholeness within?

Return, Repent, Restore, Rise up within? Seek to become the fullness of Love within, each one of us, would this be true? Then we can >>Love our neighbor as we love ourselves?

Jesus was fully aware of such egos, desires of others and their own self interest, was he not? Is that not what >> Matthew Chapter 23, is all about? Jesus identifies and rebukes harshly those with such egos? self interests? hypocrites x3? Jesus even judging them as being>> you are the children of the father of lies, is this not written? Nature and the fall, is it confusing?

 

[Shakuhachi]

Sorry, I don’t understand what you are intending to mean.

 

[rose321]

Sorry, I don’t understand what you are intending to mean.

Respectfully toward and thank you for ones kind reply and I am sorry for my poor communications within ones personal opinion given. Peace

 

[Shakuhachi]

What is your primary language?

 

[Reuben_J]

While I agree with you, obviously, I was not talking about this but rather comparing paradise (Garden of Eden) where our first parents first dwelled and the present world where they were driven to.

God bless.

 

[BlackFriar]

It doesn’t seem to be English does it. Or its an attempt to sound mystical? if so that succeeded.

 

[OneSheep]

Either the natural world was once in a state of grace with our first parents or it was not and has always been filled with pain and terror.

Do you spend a lot of time watching the news? It is not so “filled”, is it? The news gives an unbalanced view of life.
We can say that pain and terror occur, and the human capacity to feel pain functions in helping us avoid certain things. Yes, terror occurs, but each individual case of terrible happenings has behind it some aspect of good intent.

If it was not, why would a benevolent creator author such suffering for living things – especially if Man was to live apart from them in a blessed place like Eden? It seems to me that God intended animals to suffer, and that our Fall, if anything, made it worse through the curse we provoked.

Well, if animals did not have the capacity to suffer, that is, when bad things happened they would merely happen and there would be no capacity for sadness or distress, then there would be no suffering. However, the capacity to suffer serves a purpose, it guides us as to what to avoid, how to live.

And then, if there was no competition for resources there would be a lot less destruction in the world.

But then, destruction itself is part of building.

Can you see that there is means to a model by which the universe is still being created, in a single (slow) movement? Our Heavenly Father is found not in our adverse reaction to destruction, but found by finding Him within, in What connects us all. We can know Love by finding it in interior relationship and relationship with all the wonderful people around us.

Do you see what I mean? Seeing curses is part of our own God-given capacity for growth, they do not represent an underlying reality. Seeing curses is part of the functional illusion.