Nature's state

[mikekle]

Well that is a problem I don’t have to solve because only God knows the reason why they reject him. If it is invincible ignorance, they may still have a chance. But in this modern age, that is very difficult to claim.

But just ordinary people like me with just ask this one simple question: why do they think they deserve heaven? It is not owed to them. Even for believers, it is already difficult as it is. Any particular reason why an atheist is entitled to heaven? Being good? Hmmmpf!

You are right, none of us can really know why some people reject God, but God knows whats in everyones hearts and I imagine judges accordingly.

Personally, I know many many secular people who have nothing to do with religion, they dont pray, or attend mass at all, yet they are good people, many go out of their way to help others, and are generally doing good in their lives, its disturbing to think just because they choose not to have a relationship with their creator, they are somehow ‘entitled’ to an eternity of suffering.

You are also right about none of us deserving heaven, but thats not the same thing as saying they deserve some type of hell either. God can do anything, if he can create heaven, hell, purgatory, etc, probably would not be too difficult for him to create a type of neutral place for the type of people like Ive described…just as their earthly lives were, their eternal destination would be a place where they exist without God…just an extension of their earthly lives.

 

[ericc]

You are right, none of us can really know why some people reject God, but God knows whats in everyones hearts and I imagine judges accordingly.

Personally, I know many many secular people who have nothing to do with religion, they dont pray, or attend mass at all, yet they are good people, many go out of their way to help others, and are generally doing good in their lives, its disturbing to think just because they choose not to have a relationship with their creator, they are somehow ‘entitled’ to an eternity of suffering.

You are also right about none of us deserving heaven, but thats not the same thing as saying they deserve some type of hell either. God can do anything, if he can create heaven, hell, purgatory, etc, probably would not be too difficult for him to create a type of neutral place for the type of people like Ive described…just as their earthly lives were, their eternal destination would be a place where they exist without God…just an extension of their earthly lives.

Well if one denies God, and God accept that person didn’t want a part of him, it is only just that God accept that person’s decision as he can’t compel that person to acknowledge Him. And that is what hell is. The absence of God. And the absence of God may be unpleasant. Because absence of God is absence of Good. Absence of Good necessarily means one shouldn’t expect good things. Is there a neutral position? The answer to that is is there such a thing as a neutral person? Even if one didn’t do anything, neglect or omission can still be a bad thing. I suppose God gives chances to choose or reject him, but not straddle between God/Satan.

 

[thinkandmull]

I am trying to understand St. Paul’s logic in Romans. If a person commits a mortal sin, he stands in judgments of God. But what if he repents? Apart from redemption, is this man still subject to God’s judgment? But why if he repented?

 

[thinkandmull]

I didn’t actually say that. If they were not religious, they could already be breaking the Sabbath which is a mortal sin. If one is NOT a member of God’s family, there is no reason for Him to take those people into his house. No one is owed heaven. If it is a venial sin, everlasting torment seems disproportionate to the sin. I suppose it is possible to have hell with varying levels of torment. Hypothetically, those that caused little harm attached with almost undetectable levels of torment. Or just the absence of God is sufficient torment, no additional (name removed by moderator)uts required.

If they are not worshiping God, they are not living according to his instructions. Being nice does not earn anyone to heaven too. Being neutral and not doing harm does not earn the right to heaven either. Omission could be a sin, not doing the right thing when charity requires an action. If there is no love in the heart, I’d find that difficult to get into heaven.

A nice atheist person, since he does not believe in God, wouldn’t mind if not invited right? To do so would be against his will. And there is no reason to drag someone unwillingly to heaven because he didn’t think it exist. Since he doesn’t believe in God, then he most likely never repented his sins (and I’m sure everyone sins), and since he has no real standard of measurement of the mortality of the sins he committed, and assuming he did committed mortal sins that were not repented or confessed, hell is quite likely. If one has no intent of making a permanent home with God, someone else will prepare a home for them elsewhere. And the punishment will commensurate with the harm, there. Bottomline is we need a gate pass. No gate pass, no heaven. Regardless of how unharmful one is .

One is in heaven because one is a family member in good standing. One could also be in heaven if invited. Of that I am not sure how God does it, we never try to restrict his freedom to predestine anyone to heaven (as if we could)

John Paul II and other Church authorities have taught that everyone get’s the chance to accept salvation. So there is nobody dying in a state of only venial sin but no sanctifying grace

 

[thinkandmull]

My previous question (post 23) has to do with Pelagianism I guess. Very interesting, do comment