Navy SEAL or undercover DEA and The Church

[shipwrkd]

My son’s a Cop in an area heavy with drug use and gangs. My wife is a devout Catholic and recently walked in on a video from my sons dash cam and the language disturbed her. We turned it off and later, I asked my son what his thoughts were. His responds was that his “clients” understood the language of the street and “drop your weapon” was no where near as effective as “drop the gun or I’ll blow your ******* head off”. My responds was to do or say whatever it took to stay alive. His best friend is a Navy SEAL who was trained to take orders which can end in someone’s life being “terminated” He doesn’t have the opportunity to judge whether his mission is just or unjust and most often he’s not told what the mission is until it’s underway and are always offensive and become defensive only if they fail. There are “wars” being fought that we know very little about and I’m sure the Church wouldn’t approve of. My son is also looking into undercover Gang Task force work or drug enforcement. He’s told that, in all likely hood he 'd need to do things that would be considered repulsive to a liberal, let alone a Catholic.

That said, i’d like thoughts on street language and if one can be an undercover agent or even a Navy SEAL and still have a clear Catholic conscience?

Tried this post under Vocations and got only 2 responses.

 

[1ke]

I think a review of the three fonts of morality would be in order for your son.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P5Q.HTM
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P5R.HTM
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P5S.HTM

Certainly we can be members of law enforcement and the military. But, we must still follow moral principles. What your son said, regarding language, does not hold up to the bright light of day. He does not have to be like the criminals he arrests. He can maintain moral ways of acting and do his job, and he can treat people with dignity.

He’s made up a story in his head that he has to go along to get along, but really that is a choice he is making.

The Church also has extensive teachings regarding just war.

 

[tabycat]

Having lived in areas that had high drug and gang active, I am greatful for the cops that are in the gang and drug Task Forces. In the end what the officers have to do and say to (legelly) keep the rest of us safe, the Lord God knows their hearts and, in the end, He is the finel Judge. :knight1:

 

[TheRealJuliane]

My son’s a Cop in an area heavy with drug use and gangs. My wife is a devout Catholic and recently walked in on a video from my sons dash cam and the language disturbed her. We turned it off and later, I asked my son what his thoughts were. His responds was that his “clients” understood the language of the street and “drop your weapon” was no where near as effective as “drop the gun or I’ll blow your ******* head off”. My responds was to do or say whatever it took to stay alive. His best friend is a Navy SEAL who was trained to take orders which can end in someone’s life being “terminated” He doesn’t have the opportunity to judge whether his mission is just or unjust and most often he’s not told what the mission is until it’s underway and are always offensive and become defensive only if they fail. **There are “wars” being fought that we know very little about and I’m sure the Church wouldn’t approve of. **My son is also looking into undercover Gang Task force work or drug enforcement. He’s told that, in all likely hood he 'd need to do things that would be considered repulsive to a liberal, let alone a Catholic.

That said, i’d like thoughts on street language and if one can be an undercover agent or even a Navy SEAL and still have a clear Catholic conscience?

Tried this post under Vocations and got only 2 responses.

Why are you so sure of this? There is a concept of “just war” in the Church. Police work, detective work, and military missions are honorable professions that help protect all of us. Yeah, the language thing…In the general scheme of things, I think he knows what will/won’t work in his job. He has to make up his own mind about that. Tell him not to leave his dash cam tapes around where his mom can see them.

 

[mgoforth]

His best friend is a Navy SEAL who was trained to take orders which can end in someone’s life being “terminated” He doesn’t have the opportunity to judge whether his mission is just or unjust…

Wow, this type of thinking REALLY bothers me. Can you think of any other group in history who claimed they were “just following orders” and therefore weren’t responsible for their actions?? Yeah, these guys. It didn’t fly for them, and I don’t think it flies just because the uniform is American either. :dts:

 

[epan]

My son’s a Cop in an area heavy with drug use and gangs. My wife is a devout Catholic and recently walked in on a video from my sons dash cam and the language disturbed her. We turned it off and later, I asked my son what his thoughts were. His responds was that his “clients” understood the language of the street and “drop your weapon” was no where near as effective as “drop the gun or I’ll blow your ******* head off”. My responds was to do or say whatever it took to stay alive. His best friend is a Navy SEAL who was trained to take orders which can end in someone’s life being “terminated” He doesn’t have the opportunity to judge whether his mission is just or unjust and most often he’s not told what the mission is until it’s underway and are always offensive and become defensive only if they fail. There are “wars” being fought that we know very little about and I’m sure the Church wouldn’t approve of. My son is also looking into undercover Gang Task force work or drug enforcement. He’s told that, in all likely hood he 'd need to do things that would be considered repulsive to a liberal, let alone a Catholic.

That said, i’d like thoughts on street language and if one can be an undercover agent or even a Navy SEAL and still have a clear Catholic conscience?

Tried this post under Vocations and got only 2 responses.

I was not a SEAL, but I was special forces, and I was detached to a SEAL team for a joint task force operation. So, I have personal familiarity with the ethical issue.

It is so important that our leaders use our military capabilities wisely, and accordance with honor. I always knew that I did not often know much about the larger picture. Therefore, it was not my place to make a judgement call of that nature. Further, other’s lives depended on my doing my job, and my safety could depend on their doing their jobs.

I decided to leave the military, because while initially I thought that the overthrow of Hussein was a lofty aim, I eventually decided that the war was ‘unjust’. I could not be deployed again in good conscience. However, after the first deployment, there was an additional incentive, which was to try to help fix what terrorists had had broken, to protect the people, to support my comrades, and to continue toward a stable society, free of violence. Once we are committed, I don’t think we should leave something until the mission is accomplished. In this case,the removal of a terrorist government, the elimination of a biological warfare threat, and a free and democratic Iraq.

So, there are many reasons. And, while the initial invasion may have been ‘unjust’, an argument could be made that our sustained presence there was a moral obligation.

 

[shipwrkd]

I think a review of the three fonts of morality would be in order for your son.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P5Q.HTM
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P5R.HTM
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P5S.HTM

Certainly we can be members of law enforcement and the military. But, we must still follow moral principles. What your son said, regarding language, does not hold up to the bright light of day. He does not have to be like the criminals he arrests. He can maintain moral ways of acting and do his job, and he can treat people with dignity.

He’s made up a story in his head that he has to go along to get along, but really that is a choice he is making.

The Church also has extensive teachings regarding just war.

He’s a great son and excellent person and does not consider any language exchanged between he and someone holding a weapon immoral. He is trained that force must be met with equal or greater force and if the tone of his voice or even his language causes someone to drop their weapon rather then him having to “put three rounds center mass” as all LEO’s are trained to do, then that’s the better choice.

There is no story in his head, there is the reality that his actions could determine whether he comes home to his wife and son in his car or a coffin. He understands that his first obligation is to his God, his second to himself and you…not necessarily in that order. I’ve spent time in this young man’s cruiser and know his danger in his job. My advice to him stands…do what you need to stay alive.
BTW, if you ever have a free evening, ask your local Law Enforcement Agency if you could do a “ride along” and get to know a Cop, whether he be Catholic or atheist.

 

[1ke]

He’s a great son and excellent person and does not consider any language exchanged between he and someone holding a weapon immoral. He is trained that force must be met with equal or greater force and if the tone of his voice or even his language causes someone to drop their weapon rather then him having to “put three rounds center mass” as all LEO’s are trained to do, then that’s the better choice.

There is no story in his head, there is the reality that his actions could determine whether he comes home to his wife and son in his car or a coffin. He understands that his first obligation is to his God, his second to himself and you…not necessarily in that order. I’ve spent time in this young man’s cruiser and know his danger in his job. My advice to him stands…do what you need to stay alive.
BTW, if you ever have a free evening, ask your local Law Enforcement Agency if you could do a “ride along” and get to know a Cop, whether he be Catholic or atheist.

Ok, so you asked if Church teaching allowed for the ends to justify the means. Clearly the answer is no. Now, it seems, you plan to spend the rest of this thread trying to explain why in his case it is different.

Your son needs to form his conscience in Church teaching and his acts need to flow from there.

 

[LucyLight]

I’m suprised by these answers. Maybe I’m missing something here. Are we just talking about using a bunch of swear words? If that’s the case and he was undercover than it seems like he is only acting and providing a valuable service to the rest of society. You can’t be undercover and say gosh darn it all.

 

[tafan]

…I Certainly we can be members of law enforcement and the military. But, we must still follow moral principles. What your son said, regarding language, does not hold up to the bright light of day. He does not have to be like the criminals he arrests. He can maintain moral ways of acting and do his job, and he can treat people with dignity.

He’s made up a story in his head that he has to go along to get along, but really that is a choice he is making.

…

.

I could not disagree more. I can certainly see how a cop has to use that type of language in an arrest situation or when facing a risk. And his reasoning is spot-on; it is a life or death situation and he has to get the other guys attention ASAP, before something really bad happens.

1ke: If you had to make that choice, you would likely do make the same choice.

 

[Gorillaman]

Yeeeaaahhh. It’s ok your son sounds like a good man… Support him, cuz when wolves come growling, which they will, we need help. Need a sword. Need a wolf who defends

Your son will have your voice in the back of his head.

Trust a wolf

Peace.

 

[1ke]

I could not disagree more. I can certainly see how a cop has to use that type of language in an arrest situation or when facing a risk. And his reasoning is spot-on; it is a life or death situation and he has to get the other guys attention ASAP, before something really bad happens.

1ke: If you had to make that choice, you would likely do make the same choice.

The OP stated: He’s told that, in all likely hood he 'd need to do things that would be considered repulsive to a liberal, let alone a Catholic.

The principles of morality apply to us all, police work or not. We may not do evil even in an attempt to bring about good.

It depends upon what he is called to do, but if he is truly called to violate moral principles he needs to decline.

 

[tafan]

The OP stated: He’s told that, in all likely hood he 'd need to do things that would be considered repulsive to a liberal, let alone a Catholic.

The principles of morality apply to us all, police work or not. We may not do evil even in an attempt to bring about good.

It depends upon what he is called to do, but if he is truly called to violate moral principles he needs to decline.

I was only taking exception to your statement that the OP’s song’s language was wrong in the arrest scenario, and that he was just justifying it in his head. That was the part of your original post that I strongly disagree with

 

[shipwrkd]

It depends upon what he is called to do, but if he is truly called to violate moral principles he needs to decline.

Commanding officer: “men, here are the rules of engagement for for this mission”.
Soldier: “sorry sir, but these rules don’t fulfill the four requirements of this being a just mission”
Commanding officer: “well, let me see if we can get these changed”
Commanding officer: “just checked and the rules stand…maybe we can delay the mission to replace you with a non-Catholic. Oh wait, the other Teams are already on their way. Well, gosh, I suppose we’ll be able to get along without you on this one, maybe you’ll be able to go with us on the next mission”

Yea, right! This happens all the time
Glad we have some “morally questionable” people on our side to protect my right to make it to the mall for the Memorial Day sales.

 

[mgoforth]

Glad we have some “morally questionable” people on our side to protect my right to make it to the mall for the Memorial Day sales.

Once again…wow. I do not expect to find a better example of “kill the barbarians so I can buy stuff” mentality today. Just sad.

How about this dialogue instead:

Navy Recruiter: Glad you’ve decided to join the SEALs, son.
Kid: Well, actually I had a few questions about moral issues…
Navy Recruiter: No time for morality, son. We have shoppers waiting at the mall, so suit up. Next!

 

[shipwrkd]

.I decided to leave the military, because while initially I thought that the overthrow of Hussein was a lofty aim, I eventually decided that the war was ‘unjust’. I could not be deployed again in good conscience…

Thanks for your post based on experience. Wish I could have left the military, but when I got the invitation (draft notice) to part take in the Vietnam Conflict, my choices were limited. Move to Canada, go to jail or go to war. Over the 20 or so years and 4 or 5 Presidents, that war wavered from just to unjust more than once and is still debated by Theologians as well as Politicians on it’s justification. I only go to Canada to fish and I’ve never been in jail but when I visit my friend at our National Cemetery, I certainly don’t consider that it may have been unjust nor do the thousands of Catholic names on the slab of granite called the Vietnam Memorial Wall…just my opinion.

 

[shipwrkd]

Once again…wow. I do not expect to find a better example of “kill the barbarians so I can buy stuff” mentality today. Just sad.

How about this dialogue instead:

Navy Recruiter: Glad you’ve decided to join the SEALs, son.
Kid: Well, actually I had a few questions about moral issues…
Navy Recruiter: No time for morality, son. We have shoppers waiting at the mall, so suit up. Next!

I see you’ve visited a Recruiter…

 

[mgoforth]

I see you’ve visited a Recruiter…

Yeah…I almost tried out for Army SF myself. Change of heart at the last minute, and the recruiter was not interested in my reasons for cancelling my enlistment.

Anyway, sorry about the lack of charity in my last post…military/ethical topics strike a nerve with me sometimes.

 

[tonyinatlga12]

Hey coptic,

I have be recovering from surgery the past week. I was so bored out of my mind until somehow I came across this website. Unfortunately it is back to work with me. It has been such fun toying with you. You have had me laughing my *** off. Thank you so much for the entertainment. You crack me up. It has been so much fun having you run from here and there. I would just cut and paste stuff off the internet and I can just imagine you taking all that time reading a bunch of ****. I feel kind of bad jerking you around, but I couldn’t resist. You just made it too easy. I wish I could take a couple of more days off to play around with you, but its back to the real world.

 

[shipwrkd]

Yeah…I almost tried out for Army SF myself. Change of heart at the last minute, and the recruiter was not interested in my reasons for cancelling my enlistment.

Anyway, sorry about the lack of charity in my last post…military/ethical topics strike a nerve with me sometimes.

No problem whatsoever. If I wasn’t looking for opinions, I wouldn’t have asked. BTW, if you really want to see some excitement, subscribe to a thread on Gun Control. Some say every gun should be destroyed and some say you’ll get mine when you pry it from my cold dead hand. Both may be correct, but I’m sure the answer is somewhere in the middle. Thanks.