Nazi Catholics...!

[ChadS]

The Nazis were the National Socialist Workers Party, which is Socialist by it’s very nature. Which is the very anti-thesis of Catholicism. Socialism is very leftist by it’s nature. How hard is it for people to remember that?

bones, The Nazis, just because they had the word Socialist in their name does not make them leftists. Some of their self-serving rhetoric may have been designed to appeal to workers, but the aim and sum total of their ideology was to create a nation of people devoid of anything they considered foreign or harmful and to eliminate those influences. This ran the gamut and included Jews and foreigners, but also ideological enemies, notably Socialists and Communists.

At the time Germans were quite aware they were joining a right wing, nationalist organization and they didn’t want it any other way. People recognized it at that time and historians have recognized it since WWII ended. It’s only recently that some have attempted to portray Nazis and leftists to suit their own political leanings.

Yes, socialists are leftists but Nazis are not.

ChadS

 

[Bennie_P]

bones, The Nazis, just because they had the word Socialist in their name does not make them leftists. Some of their self-serving rhetoric may have been designed to appeal to workers, but the aim and sum total of their ideology was to create a nation of people devoid of anything they considered foreign or harmful and to eliminate those influences. This ran the gamut and included Jews and foreigners, but also ideological enemies, notably Socialists and Communists.

At the time Germans were quite aware they were joining a right wing, nationalist organization and they didn’t want it any other way. People recognized it at that time and historians have recognized it since WWII ended. It’s only recently that some have attempted to portray Nazis and leftists to suit their own political leanings.

Yes, socialists are leftists but Nazis are not.

ChadS

The difference between the The Nazi’s and the other socialist parties of that period was thier relationships to the international socialist movements outside of Germany. this made NAZI right wing in comparison only to the parties within Germany itself. The NAZI held a very left-wing belief common in left wing politics for a strong centralized goverment controlled by an intelligentsia elite, or vanguards of the party/state, a leftist view of politcs which we saw manifested also in Leninism and Marxism as opposed to a true right-wing view for a smaller less centralized form of government which espouses freedom of the individual as opposed to state control over many aspects of the individual’s life.
Being left or right of center has to be put in perspective to where the center point is positioned. The Democrat party of the US is more right-wing then the NAZIs, yet for many in the US too far left for comfort. In the past, (contemporaries of time) political observers where commenting on the leftist or rightist leanings of the Parties within Germany as it related to the politics within Germany, to use those same terms of left-wing and right-wing as to American politics is an modern erronous revisionist view. The NAZIs were socialist, just not Marxist-Leninist.

 

[Kaninchen]

Yes, socialists are leftists but Nazis are not.

Indeed, the name was actually “Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei” (National-Socialist German-Workers’ Party) but their support came from farmers, artisans (craftsmen) and clerks rather than from the working class and their financial support came from big business - the emphasis is on ‘National’ and ‘German’ rather than ‘Socialist’ and ‘Workers’ and has to do with very different concepts of what ‘society’ and ‘work’ comprised. Their first victims were German Communists and Social Democrats (not forgetting the ‘left’ of the NSDAP itself, of course!).

The Nazi concept of Gleichschaltung (making equal) had nothing to do with ‘common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange’ - quite the opposite - it meant, rather, the process of bringing the Volk (racial Germans) together in a national-racial state - a commonality of experience of race/nation rather than wealth.

Theoreticians yearned for a ‘folk community’ of aryan peasant farmers, workshop production and small business, but getting there – total war – meant ever-greater concentration of industry and wealth.

Rather than re-inventing the Nazis to suit American preoccupations, Catholics might be better off remembering that, in Germany, Catholic areas shared with working class areas the lowest proportions voting for the NSDAP (the Catholic ‘Center Party’ and its sister Bavarian Peoples Party vote held up as did that of the Socialist/Communist Parties).

 

[bones_IV]

Indeed, the name was actually “Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei” (National-Socialist German-Workers’ Party) but their support came from farmers, artisans (craftsmen) and clerks rather than from the working class and their financial support came from big business - the emphasis is on ‘National’ and ‘German’ rather than ‘Socialist’ and ‘Workers’ and has to do with very different concepts of what ‘society’ and ‘work’ comprised. Their first victims were German Communists and Social Democrats (not forgetting the ‘left’ of the NSDAP itself, of course!).

The Nazi concept of Gleichschaltung (making equal) had nothing to do with ‘common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange’ - quite the opposite - it meant, rather, the process of bringing the Volk (racial Germans) together in a national-racial state - a commonality of experience of race/nation rather than wealth.

Theoreticians yearned for a ‘folk community’ of aryan peasant farmers, workshop production and small business, but getting there – total war – meant ever-greater concentration of industry and wealth.

Rather than re-inventing the Nazis to suit American preoccupations, Catholics might be better off remembering that, in Germany, Catholic areas shared with working class areas the lowest proportions voting for the NSDAP (the Catholic ‘Center Party’ and its sister Bavarian Peoples Party vote held up as did that of the Socialist/Communist Parties).

We aren’t re-inventing the Nazis. You are just simply ignorant of history.

 

[Jerusha]

I like the chaotic nature of this thread. Life is not black and white. Political philosophies that do not subscribe to any ultimate set of moral truths all boil down to one thing. World War II. Extremes of political philosophies are more alike than different.

 

[Bennie_P]

I like the chaotic nature of this thread. Life is not black and white. Any group of political philosophies that do not subscribe to any ultimate set of moral truths all boil down to one thing. World War II. Extremes of political philosophies are more alike than different.

That is so true, for instance, socialists will promote anarchy,which many see as left-wing, but if you think about is the ultimate right-wing philosophy of no government whats-so-ever, in order to bring down an government then come in as an elitist intellentgisia to take control and to “protect” the masses. This is what happen in post WW I in Germany and we saw another version of it during the sixties right here in the US.

As to WW II , it is the perfect example of evil in control.

 

[RyanL]

Bones,

Off topic but I just visited your blog…pretty nice (I’m not a Catholic so I can’t give you anything better than pretty nice or else I’ll lose my Calvinist license ).

I think you and a few other Catholic posters here should advertise your blogs a little better. Church Militant has a nice one as well but I noticed a fair number of his posts/blogs…whatever they are called have no comments too.

To try and tie the two topics together, I have a blog as well - Sonitus Sanctus. It’s just a blog of Catholic audio links – no insightful commentary on my part, really…I let the speakers do that part.

In any case, I posted a talk from the Ethics and Public Policy Center entitled “Hitler’s Pope?”. You can check it out here. It’s pretty good.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[ChadS]

The difference between the The Nazi’s and the other socialist parties of that period was thier relationships to the international socialist movements outside of Germany. this made NAZI right wing in comparison only to the parties within Germany itself. The NAZI held a very left-wing belief common in left wing politics for a strong centralized goverment controlled by an intelligentsia elite, or vanguards of the party/state, a leftist view of politcs which we saw manifested also in Leninism and Marxism as opposed to a true right-wing view for a smaller less centralized form of government which espouses freedom of the individual as opposed to state control over many aspects of the individual’s life.
Being left or right of center has to be put in perspective to where the center point is positioned. The Democrat party of the US is more right-wing then the NAZIs, yet for many in the US too far left for comfort. In the past, (contemporaries of time) political observers where commenting on the leftist or rightist leanings of the Parties within Germany as it related to the politics within Germany, to use those same terms of left-wing and right-wing as to American politics is an modern erronous revisionist view. The NAZIs were socialist, just not Marxist-Leninist.

What you have described is a totalitarian form of government. The Soviet Union and Nazi Germany are both fine examples of that, but that does not make them ideological brothers. The only relationship Nazis had with international socialist movements was that they wanted to see them destroyed utterly and wholly. The Nazis views Judaism and Communism as branches from the same root – both of which they wanted destroyed.

I think Kaninchen’s post points out very well the real aims of the Nazi party was to bring the German volk together in a national-racial state. As Kaninchen also points out the Nazi’s purged what could be considered the 'left" in their party – the Night of the Long Knives – reduced the SA to a shadow of it’s former self.

I am hardly the one here engaging in “revisionist” history. Your contention that the Democratic Party in the U.S. is further right than the Nazis ever were is ridiculous and deserves no further comment. No serious historian believes by any stretch of the imagination that Nazi Germany is a representative of a left wing ideology or world view.

ChadS

 

[Bennie_P]

What you have described is a totalitarian form of government. The Soviet Union and Nazi Germany are both fine examples of that, but that does not make them ideological brothers. The only relationship Nazis had with international socialist movements was that they wanted to see them destroyed utterly and wholly. The Nazis views Judaism and Communism as branches from the same root – both of which they wanted destroyed.

I think Kaninchen’s post points out very well the real aims of the Nazi party was to bring the German volk together in a national-racial state. As Kaninchen also points out the Nazi’s purged what could be considered the 'left" in their party – the Night of the Long Knives – reduced the SA to a shadow of it’s former self.

I am hardly the one here engaging in “revisionist” history. Your contention that the Democratic Party in the U.S. is further right than the Nazis ever were is ridiculous and deserves no further comment. No serious historian believes by any stretch of the imagination that Nazi Germany is a representative of a left wing ideology or world view.

ChadS

Oh yes they do…

The Mustache on the Left

The pop psychologists have a word for it: projection. The Leftist, unwilling to see his own worldview for what it is and has been historically, transfers what he knows deep down to be the truth onto his political rivals. He falsely sees in them what he ought to see in himself. He is like the child who blames his teachers, his parents, his dog – anyone but himself – for his poor grades; as in so many other ways, Leftism reveals itself to be a kind of arrested adolescence.

 

[Jerusha]

The more one hates, the more one loses one’s sense of self, and takes on characteristics of who one hates. Very similar to the child raised in an alcoholic home, vowing to NEVER become like the hated alcoholic parent. Guess what?

You are right on this:

Your contention that the Democratic Party in the U.S. is further right than the Nazis ever were is ridiculous and deserves no further comment.

That statement was just too far out to deserve serious consideration.

Either political extreme is nothing more than a stepping-stone to anarchy.

 

[Bennie_P]

The more one hates, the more one loses one’s sense of self, and takes on characteristics of who one hates. Very similar to the child raised in an alcoholic home, vowing to NEVER become like the hated alcoholic parent. Guess what?

You are right on this: That statement was just too far out to deserve serious consideration.

Either political extreme is nothing more than a stepping-stone to anarchy.

Well then I assume you two are of the belief that the American Democratic Party are left of German NAZI party? wouldn’t that put then in same arena as with Stalinist’s Russia or a least Marxist-Leninist, I was trying to be nice in my evaluation of the Democrats, I guess you guys are not as Charitable.

Left-Right Polarities

To understand the pagan mind in this context we must recognize the truth about left-right polarities in the political sphere.  With minor discrepancies, all left-wing ideology can be identified as “regressive,” and right-wing ideology as “progressive.” Left-wing regressives incite mutual plunder, encourage dependency and pragmatically aspire to the lowest common denominator. Genuine right-wing progressive conservatives encourage creativity, inspire mutual affirmation, trust and human productivity. By nature, all socialism falls on the regressive side, in that “socialism,” is simply a political ideology which often lacks a true sense of social justice. Evil disguises itself as virtue (e.g., the goal of racial purity) because it has no life of its own (which is why sad bondage wishes to be known as “gay liberation.”)
Generally, adherents of  the Left fail to do what is necessary to guard the dignity of their fellow man. A left-leaning historian, for instance, would fatalistically argue that “history” repeats itself, while a conservative like Voltaire could observe correctly how it is instead “man who always repeats himself.” No wonder left-regressives cannot learn from history. If history just “happens” then little can be learned from it or done to prevent it from happening again. Basing one’s decisions on a revised, corrupted or inverted version of history, however, is another matter. Some of man’s worst follies are committed because of erroneous or falsified information. 
In trying to understand the Nazi phenomenon we often ask ourselves how a gang of murdering thugs could have seized power in such a *civilized* nation? The truth is that Germany during the Weimar period was one of the most *uncivilized *nations in the world. Hitler himself referred to Berlin as the whore of Babylon. We consistently err in  judging the advancement of human civilizations on the basis of art and technology. The Nazis loved classical music, and they were astute  in the use of science and technology. The question we must ask about every society is, to what end is human culture is employed?  For left-wing regressives, culture serves destruction and death.  For right-wing progressives, culture focuses upon life.

 

[ChadS]

Bennie,

“The Mustache on the Left” article you posted is hardly the definitive statement about Nazism. It’s primarily a screed against leftists, left-wingers and pseudo-intellectuals and is more a statement about 2004 American politics and name calling than Hitler and Nazism. The article finally concludes that: “Hitler’s famous mustache has its obvious analogues in those of Stalin and Saddam Hussein. But George Bush does not wear one.” How’s that for a first rate piece of historical analysis? This article is jibberish masquerading as intellectualism.

The fact of the matter is when the Nazi party rose in Germany the Germans were under absolutely no illusions as to what side of the political spectrum they were on. Hindberg knew Hitler came from the right. Right wing parties disintegrated and were subsumed totally into the Party. Old Fighters and other Nationalists flocked into the Nazi Party. The Nazis fought pitched street battles against Communists and Socialists, and when they had the opportunity they were some of the first ones thrown into concentration camps. The Nazis even blamed a communist for burning down the Reichstag – not exactly the behavior of like-minded individuals. The Nazi-Soviet treaty was a marriage of convenience Hitler had little intention of keeping. The fact that American Communists supported the Soviets on this one has nothing to do with their supposed ideological similarities, but the fact that the CPUSA was totally enslaved and beholden to the party line coming out of Moscow. All the Nazi sympathizers from the American German-born communities all came from the right.

The pop psychologists have a word for it: projection. The Leftist, unwilling to see his own worldview for what it is and has been historically, transfers what he knows deep down to be the truth onto his political rivals. He falsely sees in them what he ought to see in himself. He is like the child who blames his teachers, his parents, his dog – anyone but himself – for his poor grades; as in so many other ways, Leftism reveals itself to be a kind of arrested adolescence.

Last time I checked you don’t know me. Who’s the one projecting now?

ChadS

 

[DL82]

There are a few SS Missals out there. The Ukrainians were part of the Axis powers, many joined Hitler, mostly out of a desire to get revenge on their Russian persecutors and not because of any affinity with Nazi politics. All the same, there were Ukrainian divisions of the SS who were Catholic and had Catholic chaplains who used a special SS Missal. I am ashamed to say I know someone who knows someone who owns one Not my kind of thing at all I must say.

Then again, just because a few Catholics, even a few priests or bishops, supported the Nazis in extreme circumstances doesn’t mean they were right.

Racism and Christianity are not compatible. Period.

 

[ChadS]

Well then I assume you two are of the belief that the American Democratic Party are left of German NAZI party? wouldn’t that put then in same arena as with Stalinist’s Russia or a least Marxist-Leninist, I was trying to be nice in my evaluation of the Democrats, I guess you guys are not as Charitable.

Would I place the American Democrats to the left of Nazi Germany? Yes. Would I place the American Republican party to the left of Nazi Germany? Again the response would have to be yes. I believe that any attempts made by American liberals to “compare” Republicans to Nazis are unfair and generally lower the level of debate in this country I would also place the Democrats on the same left-right scale further to the right than either Stalinism, communism or socialism.

There is nothing charitable or nice in your “evaluation” of Democrats. Saying that to the Left of Nazism is Stalinist country misses the whole range of political thought. Your contention that Nazi=Socialist is nowhere near proved. And not for trying – it’s just simply not TRUE.

ChadS

 

[ChadS]

There are a few SS Missals out there. The Ukrainians were part of the Axis powers, many joined Hitler, mostly out of a desire to get revenge on their Russian persecutors and not because of any affinity with Nazi politics. All the same, there were Ukrainian divisions of the SS who were Catholic and had Catholic chaplains who used a special SS Missal. I am ashamed to say I know someone who knows someone who owns one Not my kind of thing at all I must say.

Then again, just because a few Catholics, even a few priests or bishops, supported the Nazis in extreme circumstances doesn’t mean they were right.

Racism and Christianity are not compatible. Period.

Well Put.

 

[Bennie_P]

Then again, just because a few Catholics, even a few priests or bishops, supported the Nazis in extreme circumstances doesn’t mean they were right.

Racism and Christianity are not compatible. Period.

Amen

 

[Rachy1337]

nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm
This page has pictures of Archbishops visiting Hitlers birthday party, Nuns getting autographs from Hitler, Nazis signing The Concordat at the Vatican, Hitler in Catholic Mass, Catholics saluting Hitler to his face… wilingly; Hitler greeting a Catholic Cardinal, Spanish Bishops giving the facist salute, a Cardinal marching with nazis, socialist bishops in nazi parades, and priests saluting Hitler. Guess they didn’t know about all the Catholic surpression happening in Europe… maybe. I guess there are Nazi Catholics today and yesterday. It doesn’t surprise me.

 

[Bennie_P]

nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm
This page has pictures of Archbishops visiting Hitlers birthday party, Nuns getting autographs from Hitler, Nazis signing The Concordat at the Vatican, Hitler in Catholic Mass, Catholics saluting Hitler to his face… wilingly; Hitler greeting a Catholic Cardinal, Spanish Bishops giving the facist salute, a Cardinal marching with nazis, socialist bishops in nazi parades, and priests saluting Hitler. Guess they didn’t know about all the Catholic surpression happening in Europe… maybe. I guess there are Nazi Catholics today and yesterday. It doesn’t surprise me.

These photos are being used out on context to the complete situation and how it truly relates to history. Do you understand what a concordant is?

 

[bones_IV]

These photos are being used out on context to the complete situation and how it truly relates to history. Do you understand what a concordant is?

Nobeliefs is one of the worst anti-catholic sites I’ve ever encountered and given this guys knowledge of the Church he must be an ex-catholic. Ughhhhh. His gross associate of Hitler being “Christian” is just laughable. The man is ignorant.

 

[Jerusha]

What happened in Europe is a lesson in intimidation of dissenters, squelching of free speech, persecution of people whose values are those of Jesus-- social justice.

When things get that bad, it is necessary to pay lip-service to those who think they are gods, while working in more subtle ways to end the tyranny. So, I am not surprised that they could find such photos. And, of course, some of those photos most certainly were those of “Nazi-Catholics”, not truly Catholic.