ND Church I’ve Been Considering

[Hope1960]

Thank you for listening. Please do yourself a favor, if, and I mean it kindly…IF , you have a real genuine desire to experience something different than what you have, please look further into the whole spectrum before judging us all by the experience at one ND church.

I really don’t think ALL Protestant and ND churches are like that. I’ve met a husband and wife who work there, he’s the Student Pastor and she is their Guest Services Director. Both are as kind and helpful as can be.

We have really good friends who belong to another ND church and are sweet, too.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Hope,
a present day showman’s attempt to invent his own church shouldn’t even be considered.

Hope1960:

He didn’t invent the church. It’s been in our community since the 60’s or 70’s.

Hope,

All you said was it is a ND church. That can mean any organization invented by the person in charge at the time…

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

The bible?

If he gave even a modicum of effort, he’d see that the “bible” came about by the Catholic Church.

Ask the showman,

1. who gave us the list of books that make up the bible? Who gave us the index?
2. which book in the bible says that it is scripture?
3. which book says it is the “bible” that is the only source of truth?
4. Bible isn’t even mentioned in the bible. That is in it’s original language
5. His father in faith, as a protestant, is the heretic Luther. Who gave Luther the authority to remove 7 OT books from the canon ? He also wanted to remove 4 NT books as well.

The NT was written in, by, & for, the Catholic Church. Yep that’s right. All the writers of the NT were already in the Church they were building and writing to.

I wish I had the nerve and education to be able to debate him, but it’s probably best to just not talk to him anymore.

Agreed

If you are not equipped to debate the issues, it is best not to engage anymore with him.

 

[Hope1960]

All you said was it is a ND church. That can mean any organization invented by the person in charge at the time…

From what I understand, it started with a few people in our community, having services in someone’s house. Then it grew from there, though they were losing members up until their current pastor was called to Pastor this church maybe about 10 years ago. Then the numbers really grew. He must be doing something right…he says that a lot of the congregation are former Catholics, ibcluding their Student Pastor.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

All you said was it is a ND church. That can mean any organization invented by the person in charge at the time…

From what I understand, it started with a few people in our community, having services in someone’s house. Then it grew from there, though they were losing members up until their current pastor was called to Pastor this church. Then the numbers really grew. He must be doing something right…he says that a lot of the congregation are former Catholics, ibcluding their Student Pastor.

Please read the following from Jesus

In there , you will see that many of Our Lord’s “disciples” left Him. Just before this event occurred, Jesus fed the 5000. After that, They followed Him to get the rest of the story. We don’t know how many was many in that passage, that left Jesus , but it must have been everybody else who was there except the 12. It could be hundreds, it could be thousands, either way, 'MANY" means a lot of disciples left Him after Jesus gave them an ultimatum in that gospel reading. Yes an ultimatum, not just a conditional statement but an ultimatum. As in Jesus is saying, Do what I tell you or else… kind of ultimatum.

How is that you ask?

When Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

THAT is NOT a suggestion. (Truly truly…unless you…) THAT’s an ultimatum.

AND

What do you suppose happened to those who left?

To your other point:

It’s been said the 2nd biggest Group of Christians out there. are ex Catholics. And THEY , those Catholics who left Jesus and the Eucharist in Our Lord’s Church, are just like those “disciples” who left Jesus after Jesus gave that discourse .

 

[njlisa]

The Gospels clearly show that Jesus handed authority to His Apostles.

Matthew 28:16-18 (NABRE):

16 The eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had ordered them.
17 When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted.
18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

John 20:21-23 (NABRE):

21 [Jesus] said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit.
23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

This chain has never broken. Thus, we know that Jesus’ teachings have been faithfully retained in the teachings of the Church.

 

[Hope1960]

Oh honey, I would never say someone is doing something “right” if they are proselytizing people away from the Catholic Church. It sounds like he’s got a slick agenda and is preying on poorly catechized Catholics.

Yeah. When he was talking he had me thinking I needed to be baptised again, this time by immersion.

 

[TomH1]

I am surprised he did not say that is why it was in Latin. The language did not matter. In the fifteenth century when the Reformation took place the Protestants made a big thing about translating the Bible into vernacular languages. It did not matter. As Fr. George said, the masses were illiterate.

There is also no logic in the pastor’s claims. He says the Catholic Church lies about what is in the Bible. How could you know if what he is saying in the Bible is lies?

The Bible was put together by the Catholic Church in the fourth century. Protestants use the Bible compiled by the Catholic Church. The books in the Biblical Canon are not there because that is all there were. The ones that are there were chosen by the Catholic Church.

His argument is also the typical false argument used by Protestants. They claim the Catholic Faith is not based in the Holy Scriptures. That is a puerile claim that cannot be substantiated.

 

[Hope1960]

I am surprised he did not say that is why it was in Latin. The language did not matter. In the fifteenth century when the Reformation took place the Protestants made a big thing about translating the Bible into vernacular languages. It did not matter. As Fr. Edwards said, the masses were illiterate.

There is also no logic in the pastor’s claims. He says the Catholic Church lies about what is in the Bible. How could you know if what he is saying in the Bible is lies?

The Bible was put together by the Catholic Church in the fourth century. Protestants use the Bible compiled by the Catholic Church. The books in the Biblical Canon are not there because that is all there were. The ones that are there were chosen by the Catholic Church.

His argument is also the typical false argument used by Protestants. They claim the Catholic Faith is not based in the Holy Scriptures. That is a puerile claim that cannot be substantiated.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. You’ve been helpful. Update: I received an email from the Guest Services Director, asking for my opinion on the presentation.
I told her that I didn’t like his comments about Catholics, use of the word f***, and s****, and that it was abrasive and I expect more from a pastor.

 

[TomH1]

I told her that I didn’t like his comments about Catholics, use of the word f***, and s****, and that it was abrasive and I expect more from a pastor.

There is really no need for obscenities. When people use them in my hearing they lose me immediately. I think if your vocabulary is not sufficient to express yourself without using vulgar language you have nothing to say I wish to hear.

 

[Hope1960]

It isn’t the f word you’re probably thinking of, it’s a derogatory word for gays. And the s word was a crass word for sex. But yeah, there’s no excuse for it, even though the Guest Services Director did try to make an excuse for him.

 

[Wannano]

TomH1:

I am surprised he did not say that is why it was in Latin. The language did not matter. In the fifteenth century when the Reformation took place the Protestants made a big thing about translating the Bible into vernacular languages. It did not matter. As Fr. Edwards said, the masses were illiterate.

There is also no logic in the pastor’s claims. He says the Catholic Church lies about what is in the Bible. How could you know if what he is saying in the Bible is lies?

The Bible was put together by the Catholic Church in the fourth century. Protestants use the Bible compiled by the Catholic Church. The books in the Biblical Canon are not there because that is all there were. The ones that are there were chosen by the Catholic Church.

His argument is also the typical false argument used by Protestants. They claim the Catholic Faith is not based in the Holy Scriptures. That is a puerile claim that cannot be substantiated.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. You’ve been helpful. Update: I received an email from the Guest Services Director, asking for my opinion on the presentation.
I told her that I didn’t like his comments about Catholics, use of the word f***, and s****, and that it was abrasive and I expect more from a pastor.

I think you did the right thing then.

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

Update: I received an email from the Guest Services Director […]

That’s an actual position? In a church?

For all the talk about the “mass exodus” from the Catholic Church and how the Evangelicals/Non-denominationals/Pentecostals are poaching from us maybe this is the answer here?

 

[Hope1960]

That’s an actual position? In a church?

Yep. It’s not like any church I’ve ever been to. It doubles as a gym, which I assume will change when they build another building. They have a stage, Christian rock/pop music, a fog machine, cafe etc.

What IS a Guest Services Director? I know she greets newcomers and hands out bags with T-shirt’s and whatever else (I never opened my bag. It sat around for awhile, then my hubby pitched it) to visitors, but what else do they do?

Her husband is a Student Pastor. I don’t know what that is, either.

 

[Hope1960]

May I recommend The Case for Catholicism by Trent Horn. I’m not even a Christian but I found the book to be very thorough, easy to read and clairifies all the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism and the biblical and early church fathers for every point. This may be exactly what you need to answer your questions, especially ones that Protestants tend to claim aren’t in the Bible. I was impressed!

Btw, if you feel you can’t afford the book but are interested in it, I will gift it to you. I really want you to find answers and be at peace with them.

I ordered it and it’s due to arrive tomorrow.

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

I find myself torn by this. On the one hand I’m almost a bit scandalized by the fact that a purported church would have employment positions that I can’t help but describe as corporate. I expect a restaurant, a hotel, or a convention center to have a Guest Services Director, not a church. On the other hand I can’t help but applaud the ingenuity in such a creation and I think that might help explain why so many lukewarm Catholics feel compelled to leave apostolic Christianity for a denomination that has people paid to make their “stay” quite “comfortable”. On the one hand it wreaks of consumerism but on the other hand it might be the only way forward.

What ever happened to just coming right out and saying “this is the truth as we understand it. You either accept it and join us, or leave”? Where were the Apostles sending out satisfaction surveys or asking their disciples what they “thought about the presentation”? Our Lord most certainly didn’t do this after the Bread of Life discourse in John 6. He let the grumbling Pharisees walk away angry that he dared to tell them to eat his flesh and drink his blood. He then turned to the remnant and asked “will you also go?” to which our first Pope, Simon Peter responded “to where will we go? You have the words of eternal life.”

This whole idea that the Faith should be molded to our personal comfort is just so foreign to authentic apostolic Christianity.

 

[Hope1960]

On the other hand I can’t help but applaud the ingenuity in such a creation and I think that might help explain why so many lukewarm Catholics feel compelled to leave apostolic Christianity for a denomination that has people paid to make their “stay” quite “comfortable”. On the one hand it wreaks of consumerism but on the other hand it might be the only way forward.

In all fairness, I don’t know if she’s paid or if it’s a volunteer position, but she is listed on their website under “Staff.”

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

As I mentioned, I’m torn. We no doubt live in a wayward and very hedonistic society now so perhaps a similar position should be created in Catholic parishes as outreach to both the fallen away and those on the periphery. Make them “comfortable”, and then slowly “accompany” them as Pope Francis says toward the very end of the Gospel which is the person of Jesus Christ. That person being the very personification of Truth itself, which once discovered cannot be compromised with.

I just hope that in such a Catholic hypothetical and in the Evangelical case you’ve actually mentioned there would be some kind of nudging away from one’s own comfort eventually. This is where a lot of the current talk in the Catholic Church today about “accompaniment” falls short: it’s really just a shorthand for complacency not a radical transformation of one’s life after encountering the Gospel.

Sorry. I’m blathering on here in a sort of stream of consciousness sort of way.

 

[Hope1960]

As I mentioned, I’m torn. We no doubt live in a wayward and very hedonistic society now so perhaps a similar position should be created in Catholic parishes as outreach to both the fallen away and those on the periphery. Make them “comfortable”, and then slowly “accompany” them as Pope Francis says toward the very end of the Gospel which is the person of Jesus Christ. That person being the very personification of Truth itself, which once discovered cannot be compromised with.

I just hope that in such a Catholic hypothetical and in the Evangelical case you’ve actually mentioned there would be some kind of nudging away from one’s own comfort eventually. This is where a lot of the current talk in the Catholic Church today about “accompaniment” falls short: it’s really just a shorthand for complacency not a radical transformation of one’s life after encountering the Gospel.

Sorry. I’m blathering on here in a sort of stream of consciousness sort of way.

At my Church we do have greeters who always have a smile on their face when we arrive, but that’s about it.

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

May I ask you, how well do you know the folks at the church outside of the immediate clergy and staff? Have you gotten to know enough of the average Joes in the pews to get a sense of the culture of the church?