NDE and hylomorphic dualism

[STT]

NDE is an counter example for hylomorphic dualism because NDE supports the idea that soul could live outside the body.

 

[GEddie]

NDE is an counter example for hylomorphic dualism because NDE supports the idea that soul could live outside the body.

Please explain.

Isn’t dualism, as applied to human life, predicated on the separable nature of soul and body?

And that further assumes that NDE is anything but the desperate dream of a breathless head.

ICXC NIKA

 

[STT]

Please explain.

Isn’t dualism, as applied to human life, predicated on the separable nature of soul and body?

Yes, but soul is not functional without a body in hylomorphic dualism.

And that further assumes that NDE is anything but the desperate dream of a breathless head.

ICXC NIKA

I think NDE is more than a dream. Please read this article.

 

[Gorgias]

Yes, but soul is not functional without a body in hylomorphic dualism.

Not true. From this blog post by Feser:

[T]o say “Human souls are associated with bodies” is to say that the human soul in its normal state is associated with its body, just like the human hand in its normal state is associated with its body. But it doesn’t follow that it cannot exist apart from the body, any more than it follows that the hand (at least while its tissues are still alive) can exist apart from the body. And again, the reason this is possible with the human soul and not with Fido’s soul is that the human soul, unlike Fido’s soul, carries out immaterial operations even when it is associated with the body.

 

[STT]

Not true. From this blog post by Feser:

He is arguing about the fact that soul can exist outside of body. Existence is necessary for NDE but it is not sufficient. As I mentioned soul should be functional outside of body.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

He is arguing about the fact that soul can exist outside of body. Existence is necessary for NDE but it is not sufficient. As I mentioned soul should be functional outside of body.

As far as I know, after we die, the soul does exist outside the body. Why is this controversial?

 

[STT]

As far as I know, after we die, the soul does exist outside the body. Why is this controversial?

The problem is that soul is not functional without body within hylomorphic dualism. That is why it is believed that people get resurrected and receive a new body at final judgment. NDE in another hand propose that soul does not need body to function so there is no need for resurrection and new body.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

The problem is that soul is not functional without body within hylomorphic dualism. That is why it is believed that people get resurrected and receive a new body at final judgment. NDE in another hand propose that soul does not need body to function so there is no need for resurrection and new body.

Well as far as I know, when we die our soul leaves our body and goes to heaven or hell or purgatory. I am not very clear on receiving the new body at the second coming. That’s something I have a very hard time with.

 

[GEddie]

Well as far as I know, when we die our soul leaves our body and goes to heaven or hell or purgatory. I am not very clear on receiving the new body at the second coming. That’s something I have a very hard time with.

There will indeed be a new body; that’s scriptural.

Because collinear time requires the matter of our bodies, it is difficult to try to understand the other life in terms of collinear time as we understand it.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Gorgias]

The problem is that soul is not functional without body within hylomorphic dualism.

No, that’s not true.

In the context of a Christian approach, we believe that the soul is alive, even when absent from the body.

That is why it is believed that people get resurrected and receive a new body at final judgment.

No. We believe that the soul is reunited with the body in the eschaton not because it’s “non-functional” without it, but because the body and soul were meant for each other, and therefore, it’s proper that they’re reunited for eternity.

NDE in another hand propose that soul does not need body to function so there is no need for resurrection and new body.

No. We’re talking “near death experiences”… right?

 

[STT]

No, that’s not true.

In the context of a Christian approach, we believe that the soul is alive, even when absent from the body.

No. We believe that the soul is reunited with the body in the eschaton not because it’s “non-functional” without it, but because the body and soul were meant for each other, and therefore, it’s proper that they’re reunited for eternity.

That is not true. A person with damaged brain is not functional so it is the combination of soul and healthy body which is functional.

No. We’re talking “near death experiences”… right?

Yes, we are talking about NDE.

 

[Aloysium]

. . .Isn’t dualism, as applied to human life, predicated on the separable nature of soul and body? And that further assumes that NDE is anything but the desperate dream of a breathless head. ICXC NIKA

While inseparable from the body, the spirit, eternally exists in relation to God. It is on a journey in life to commune with Him. As the reality of the knower/actor who has been incorporated to achieve this purpose in time and space, the human soul can know itself and its Ground.

Dreams are an expression of the soul trying to organize life events to make them coherent. They are also a manifestation of brain activity in the unity that is the person. They serve a similar purpose in animals albeit reflecting the nature of a more primitive soul.

I’m going to put it out there that NDE’s are events happening in full consciousness. They may or may not have something to do with memory, but everything to do with one’s journey through life. They are expressions of one’s spirit, of the experiences it has undergone when the brain was too sick to process what was going on. Words, images and feelings, one with their physical reality in brain physiology, are linked together to speak to oneself and others of what is deepest in oneself - waking dreams making sense of one’s encounters when the body was very, very sick and all that remained was spirit. As such, they are subject to revision and intellectualization, in making them coherent with the rest of one’s understanding of the world. Typically however, they turn it upside-down. There would be something to the idea that we go through certain states as the structure of the self unfolds with the breakdown in organized cerebral activity, and it has to do with our spiritual nature. To say that they are merely the product of a malfunctioning brain would be wrong.

It should be self-evident that breathless head cannot form memories. And, NDE’s are more than the distorted fragments of reality that is a delirium At a later time, the person attempts to piece together through mind/body functioning, the transformations he/she has undergone while the spirit was distracted from its fascination with the body’s activity in the world. People of all cultures report similar experiences through meditation and when the body has undergone significant mortification.

 

[Gorgias]

That is not true. A person with damaged brain is not functional

A person with a damaged brain experiences limited bodily function. You aren’t able to infer anything about the function of his soul…

Yes, we are talking about NDE.

OK… so, then, your statement doesn’t seem to make much sense. NDE’s aren’t about “souls that don’t need bodies”; they’re about people who return to their bodies. From a strictly Christian perspective, it’s unremarkable that souls are alive and capable of contact with other spirits.

 

[reggieM]

STT

The problem is that soul is not functional without body within hylomorphic dualism.

If true, then HD is not an adequate philosophical position to hold.

I think a more classical view would say that the soul really does not have “functions”. It is the form of the body - and therefore the life-cause of ensouled bodies. So, it is what causes the body to have functions.

The body cannot truly function without a soul (in the sense that functions are deliberate and not purely physiological reactions). A clinically dead body can still have hair or nail growth, but these are organic or chemical responses alone, versus the functions of a living organism.

If there is an invisible, immaterial source and cause of the functions in a living-body (a soul), on what basis would this source require a body to possess all of its powers?

One of the powers of the soul is to cause something to exist.

How can the things that the soul causes to exist (ensouled bodies), be also the cause for the soul to exist? That’s a circular problem.

 

[STT]

A person with a damaged brain experiences limited bodily function. You aren’t able to infer anything about the function of his soul…

That is the person who cannot function well.

OK… so, then, your statement doesn’t seem to make much sense. NDE’s aren’t about “souls that don’t need bodies”; they’re about people who return to their bodies. From a strictly Christian perspective, it’s unremarkable that souls are alive and capable of contact with other spirits.

They experience when they are isolated from body and then return to their body. Therefore soul doesn’t need body to function.

 

[STT]

STT

If true, then HD is not an adequate philosophical position to hold.

Why?

I think a more classical view would say that the soul really does not have “functions”. It is the form of the body - and therefore the life-cause of ensouled bodies. So, it is what causes the body to have functions.

I think soul as a form just allows the person function well within HD.

The body cannot truly function without a soul (in the sense that functions are deliberate and not purely physiological reactions). A clinically dead body can still have hair or nail growth, but these are organic or chemical responses alone, versus the functions of a living organism.

The death is defined with brain death.

If there is an invisible, immaterial source and cause of the functions in a living-body (a soul), on what basis would this source require a body to possess all of its powers?

That is how soul is defined within HD.

One of the powers of the soul is to cause something to exist.

Yes, if by something you mean mental things.

How can the things that the soul causes to exist (ensouled bodies), be also the cause for the soul to exist? That’s a circular problem.

Soul cannot cause body to exist.

Moreover in HD soul can live without a body.

 

[reggieM]

Originally Posted by reggieM View Post
How can the things that the soul causes to exist (ensouled bodies), be also the cause for the soul to exist? That’s a circular problem.

STT
Soul cannot cause body to exist.

I see a significant difference in your answer and my question. There are various reasons why you removed the parenthetical.

I’m sorry, but I don’t want to continue the conversation with you. But thanks for offering the topic for conversation.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

That is the person who cannot function well.

They experience when they are isolated from body and then return to their body. Therefore soul doesn’t need body to function.

You’re the one who said a soul needs a body to exist! We already told you that when we die the soul lives on. Therefore when the soul returns to the body in a NDE it is showing that the body still needs the soul, not vice versa.

 

[STT]

You’re the one who said a soul needs a body to exist!

No, soul needs the body to function. That is what I am saying.

We already told you that when we die the soul lives on. Therefore when the soul returns to the body in a NDE it is showing that the body still needs the soul, not vice versa.

An isolated soul according to HD cannot function which this is against NDE.

 

[Aloysium]

No, soul needs the body to function. That is what I am saying. An isolated soul according to HD cannot function which this is against NDE.

This is what is referred to as bias and demonstrates its negative impact on discerning objective truth. Here we see ideology superceding the evidence. In other words, because you believe these things, you determine that what people report cannot be true. You are free to believe what you wish, but don’t pretend you are offering any proof or argument for it.

Again what we know is that the body needs a soul to function. NDE’s support this claim and that which asserts that qualities belonging to the person, while expressed through the body in life, are not specific to the body, but rather are of the human soul itself.