NDE and hylomorphic dualism

[CHRISTINE77]

No, soul needs the body to function. That is what I am saying.

An isolated soul according to HD cannot function which this is against NDE.

No. A soul is free from the body when it dies. Until a person dies, the soul and the body remain together. After death the soul goes to Heaven or Hell or Purgatory. The only people who can exist without a soul, so they say in legend, are the Vampires, since they are actually dead.

 

[STT]

This is what is referred to as bias and demonstrates its negative impact on discerning objective truth. Here we see ideology superceding the evidence. In other words, because you believe these things, you determine that what people report cannot be true. You are free to believe what you wish, but don’t pretend you are offering any proof or argument for it.

Quite contrary we have an evidence which contrasts ideology. I believe on what people report and deduce that that is against HD since sould in HD is form of body and cannot function without it.

Again what we know is that the body needs a soul to function. NDE’s support this claim and that which asserts that qualities belonging to the person, while expressed through the body in life, are not specific to the body, but rather are of the human soul itself.

NDE is not possible in HD. That is what I am claiming.

 

[Aloysium]

Quite contrary we have an evidence which contrasts ideology. I believe on what people report and deduce that that is against HD since sould in HD is form of body and cannot function without it. NDE is not possible in HD. That is what I am claiming.

I don’t get what you are trying to say.

So, I’m just going to make few other points that may or may not be relevant.
NDE’s happen to people who are not dead. They are near death.
As such, they would be in a state similar to that of deep meditation or “being in the desert” as were John the Baptist, Jesus, et al.
Under such circumstances a few things can happen.
The spirit may lose its fascination with that which is of the body and focus on its own reality; that is why there is subjective consciousness although the person is in a coma.
The psychosomatic spiritual structure that constitutes the self may begin to unravel, again allowing the spirit to recognize its true nature, which exist in relation to God, others and all creation.
Neither of these are the result physiological activities of a brain deprived of oxygen and unable to form memories.
While NDE’s are descriptions of past experiences, they are produced in the present. They are expressions of a soul existing in time, connecting to itself at the particular time when the person was very, very sick and piecing together those parts, utilizing its brain/mind to make sense of itself.

 

[Gorgias]

An isolated soul according to HD cannot function which this is against NDE.

This is why I’d hoped you’d have read the blog by Feser carefully. He points out that this is an inaccurate analysis of the issue.

 

[STT]

I don’t get what you are trying to say.

I am sorry I cannot make it more clearer.

So, I’m just going to make few other points that may or may not be relevant.
NDE’s happen to people who are not dead. They are near death.
As such, they would be in a state similar to that of deep meditation or “being in the desert” as were John the Baptist, Jesus, et al.

I am not sure that NDE is similar to state of deep meditation. Have you ever experienced both?

Under such circumstances a few things can happen.
The spirit may lose its fascination with that which is of the body and focus on its own reality; that is why there is subjective consciousness although the person is in a coma.

This is not correct according to HD. Soul seize to function after its separation from body within HD.

 

[STT]

This is why I’d hoped you’d have read the blog by Feser carefully. He points out that this is an inaccurate analysis of the issue.

He just talk about existence of soul outside the body not its functionality.

 

[STT]

No. A soul is free from the body when it dies. Until a person dies, the soul and the body remain together. After death the soul goes to Heaven or Hell or Purgatory. The only people who can exist without a soul, so they say in legend, are the Vampires, since they are actually dead.

So you mean that the soul which were supposed to go to where God wanted was returned by medical treatment?

 

[GEddie]

So you mean that the soul which were supposed to go to where God wanted was returned by medical treatment?

No. The failure of the body that would have led to death, was stopped by medicine.

ICXC NIKA

 

[STT]

No. The failure of the body that would have led to death, was stopped by medicine.

ICXC NIKA

So person was not dead yet. Therefore HD is problematic.

 

[GEddie]

So person was not dead yet. Therefore HD is problematic.

Yes, the person was not dead yet. Which, unfortunately for some, makes NDE unusable as a travel guide for the human afterlife.

And so your “HD” really does not apply.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Gorgias]

He just talk about existence of soul outside the body not its functionality.

Your initial premise in this thread was that NDE disproves hylemorphic dualism, because it demonstrates that “NDE supports the idea that soul could live outside the body.” In other words, you’re asserting that hylemorphic dualism says that the soul cannot live outside the body. (To put it another way, you’re asserting that HD does not allow for a soul that is subsistent.)

That’s precisely the objection Feser deals with in blog post I cited. Feser quotes Vallicella’s objection: “[t]he problem here, in short, is that there is a tension between soul as substantial form and soul as substantial subsistent form.” Then, Feser goes on to argue against that assertion. (In other words, Feser is arguing against your premise!)

Read his blog again, paying special attention to his discussion of subsistent existence and the soul.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

So you mean that the soul which were supposed to go to where God wanted was returned by medical treatment?

I am saying that the body cannot live without the soul. The soul returns to the body because the body needs it to live. A body without a soul cannot live. A soul without a body can go into the eternal, or go back to the body. God did not want the body to die yet, thus the soul is returned to the body to live with in until another time when the body will actually die.

 

[STT]

Your initial premise in this thread was that NDE disproves hylemorphic dualism, because it demonstrates that “NDE supports the idea that soul could live outside the body.” In other words, you’re asserting that hylemorphic dualism says that the soul cannot live outside the body. (To put it another way, you’re asserting that HD does not allow for a soul that is subsistent.)

That’s precisely the objection Feser deals with in blog post I cited. Feser quotes Vallicella’s objection: “[t]he problem here, in short, is that there is a tension between soul as substantial form and soul as substantial subsistent form.” Then, Feser goes on to argue against that assertion. (In other words, Feser is arguing against your premise!)

Read his blog again, paying special attention to his discussion of subsistent existence and the soul.

NDE mental state is the worst than any brain malfunction yet the soul is very aware of its surrounding. According to HD the person mental state should be the worst in NDE which is contrary to what we observe. Therefore HD is a wrong model.

 

[STT]

I am saying that the body cannot live without the soul. The soul returns to the body because the body needs it to live. A body without a soul cannot live. A soul without a body can go into the eternal, or go back to the body. God did not want the body to die yet, thus the soul is returned to the body to live with in until another time when the body will actually die.

I see.

 

[Bradski]

There will indeed be a new body; that’s scriptural.

I hope the new one has all the faults fixed. Do you reckon it will be the younger, fitter version? I’ll take the mid thirties model if that’s OK.

 

[GEddie]

I hope the new one has all the faults fixed. Do you reckon it will be the younger, fitter version? I’ll take the mid thirties model if that’s OK.

Ageing won’t be an issue in the pneumatikon soma.

ICXC NIKA

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I hope the new one has all the faults fixed. Do you reckon it will be the younger, fitter version? I’ll take the mid thirties model if that’s OK.

Nobody seems to have the answer to this, but I assume the spiritual body won’t be as corporal as this one. More like a body of light. But I must admit, this part of scripture is very difficult for me.

 

[GEddie]

Nobody seems to have the answer to this, but I assume the spiritual body won’t be as corporal as this one. More like a body of light. But I must admit, this part of scripture is very difficult for me.

I imagine it is hard for everybody (every body? ) given our only experience of body is our dear old corpus humanum.

A “noncorporeal body” is a contradiction in terms; literally that would mean a bodiless body!

Presumably you meant “less massive” or “less solid”. Even then though that raises questions as to what a human body is expected to be and do.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Gorgias]

NDE mental state is the worst than any brain malfunction

On what do you base this assertion?

According to HD the person mental state should be the worst in NDE

Not quite sure what you’re asserting.

Are you saying that, separated from the body, the soul should malfunction? That’s not what HD asserts in a Christian context. (Again: read Feser. If you reject his argument, then tell us why!)

which is contrary to what we observe.

Two problems here:

First, you haven’t established that there should be soul impairment in NDE.
Second, the “we observe” is inaccurate. All we have to go on is the testimony of those who experience NDE. That’s not an observation, but merely anecdote. It’s the best we have… but it doesn’t prove anything in the way that you’re asserting it does…

 

[STT]

On what do you base this assertion?

In one you are alive but just have mall-function in another one you are close to death.

Not quite sure what you’re asserting.

Are you saying that, separated from the body, the soul should malfunction? That’s not what HD asserts in a Christian context. (Again: read Feser. If you reject his argument, then tell us why!)

What I am saying is that soul cannot function without body at all. That is why you call the person as the sum of soul (form) and body (stuff) which is functional. What is the difference if person was soul, in another word functional?

Two problems here:

First, you haven’t established that there should be soul impairment in NDE.

What do you mean with soul impairment?

Second, the “we observe” is inaccurate. All we have to go on is the testimony of those who experience NDE. That’s not an observation, but merely anecdote. It’s the best we have… but it doesn’t prove anything in the way that you’re asserting it does…

This is duty of a filed of study so called cognitive science.