NDE experiences

[ricchetto]

I believe that, theoretically, it is possible to have one. If God wants to show someone a vision, He’s perfectly capable of doing so, whenever He wants. However, if you’ll analyze the many different claiments and their supposed visions, you’ll notice that they contradict one another. It’s not like several different people saw the same Heaven-- they saw wildly different things.

I do not find that they contradict each other.
I think it all boil down to the fact that you get what you deserve.
If in your life you are really good you get a lot more then somebody else so you will be able to see what other can not see or perceive and this is not contradiction at all.

This leads me to believe that most of the people who go out and publish books about their supposed near death experiences are simply in it for the money. They know there’s a ton of people out there who want hope while clinging to a shell of religiousity. Those people fill up our mosques during Ramadan.

You show me that people get a lot of money selling books and i will give a winning lotto ticket.

 

[drac16]

I do not find that they contradict each other.
I think it all boil down to the fact that you get what you deserve.
If in your life you are really good you get a lot more then somebody else so you will be able to see what other can not see or perceive and this is not contradiction at all.

That’s not what I meant. I meant that books like ‘Heaven is for real’ and ‘90 minutes in Heaven’ contradict one another. If the plethora of books in this genre, about people having these trips to Heaven/Hell were genuine, you’d expect that the claims in the books of this genre would line-up, but they don’t.

You show me that people get a lot of money selling books and i will give a winning lotto ticket.

That’s a red herring. I don’t have to prove that because it wasn’t what I said. I said that I believe that most authors of this genre of literature are in it to make money. ‘Heaven is for real’ has been on a number of ‘best seller’ lists nytimes.com/2011/03/12/books/heaven-is-for-real-is-publishing-phenomenon.html?_r=0

It’s also being made into a movie: breakingchristiannews.com/articles/display_art.html?ID=12107

Colten Burpo and his father have also been on a number of news and talk shows. ‘90 minutes in heaven’ is also a New York Times best-seller. They seem to have cleaned up pretty well as far as money is concerned.

I don’t appreciate the snide remark at the end of your post. I really hope that that comment on giving me a lotto ticket was not what it seems to be. I wouldn’t take a lotto ticket under any circumstance, because I am a muslim, and I believe that gambling is a sin. I hope that that comment of yours was not made whilst being fully aware of how my religion views gambling, and thus, was designed to insult me. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I don’t know.

 

[amoremseram]

Hi ricchetto. I’m also interested in NDEs. In fact, in my case, it was by reading about NDEs that I was led back to our faith.

I don’t know what the Catholic church teaches about NDEs, but I think a lot of the NDE experiences confirm what the Catholic church teaches.

• There is life after death.
• God exists, and he has indescribable love for us. (Many NDErs claim to have seen God or Jesus)
• How we treat others is very important. (Many NDEs include a life review where the NDE experiencer realizes how much they helped or hurt other people).
• There is purgatory. See for example former aetheist Rev. Howard Storm’s NDE.

Of course we Catholics have known about these through our faith. For me also, Psalm 23 seems to describe many NDE elements.

The problem is that as drac16 said, there are common elements to NDEs but each NDE is unique and therefore they will often contradict each other. For example, some NDErs say the devil does not exist. Whereas other NDErs say the devil does exist. In fact, there is a case involving a rare group NDE (simultaneous NDE by a group of people) where they each had very different simultaneous discussions with a being of light.

Because of these inconsistencies, I believe it is not a good idea to try to extrapolate a theology based on NDEs. In fact, there are some NDErs who, because of their NDE, claim a theology that strikes me as misleading (for example, there is a popular NDEr who is giving a seminar that our purpose in life is to do what makes us happy).

Instead, I think the core lesson is that there is life after death, therefore we must be prepared for it. In my case, I am preparing for this destination by going back to the Catholic church.

You seem to be interested in mystical phenomena (for example you mentioned people who go into a trance and pierce their skin). I am too. But again, I don’t think it is a good idea to infer a theology based on these phenomena. For example, “if some sufi muslims can pierce their skin without harm, what they are teaching must be true.” → I disagree with this logic. If anything, in my opinion, mysticism can be dangerous, because the enemy can perform “miracles” as well, and we might falsely think that someone who can do a miracle is therefore holy and should be followed.

Rather, if you are interested in mysticism, I respectfully suggest you read about approved Catholic mystics, such as St. Pio of Pietrelcina. I have read a lot about St. Pio and find him very inspiring (it is because of reading about him and what he has said, that I have gone to confession and Mass much more often).

Peace be with you,
Michael

P.S. I have Dr. Eben Alexander’s book as well. He didn’t die. He had a severe brain infection and as a result went into coma. He said his coma was caused by the disease itself while others claim his coma was medically induced. In either case, because his higher brain functions were [temporarily] destroyed by the disease, he argues that his NDE could not have been explained through conventional science (which says that consciousness comes from the brain).
P.P.S. One book I have found that offers strong proof that NDEs are real (not hallucination) is “Mindsight: Near-Death and Out-of-Body Experiences of the Blind.” This book provides evidence that the blind can see during NDEs. If NDEs are only hallucinations, why can the blind see during NDEs?

 

[Marie5890]

Even with me and my sister still left behind my mother still did not want to return, my mother admitted this to me and apologized, but she says where she was, nothing on earth can compare to it, like I said she went into depression because of it, she said if you have ever had a comedown then times it by a 1000 and your still not close, all she wanted was to do is reach this light, she laughs at people who say its just a dream or its the brain shutting down, she reckons you don’t really come alive until you die, that’s when we enter a place where we are supposed to be, my mum thinks these same people are in for a big shock one day

Thanks so much for sharing, Aaron. Helps me keep in perspective the grief I have over those who have gone before me.I miss them dreadfully, but that doesnt mean that they are sad or unhappy. But rather, enjoying their next life even more so than this life…

We tend to forget that really, were are only, merely, pilgrims, in this life. We fight for the cultural of life, and rightfully so. But this is not what God has destined for any of us. This life is a poor reflection of something much much much greater, indeed.

 

[cornbread_r2]

…]

P.S. I have Dr. Eben Alexander’s book as well. He didn’t die. He had a severe brain infection and as a result went into coma. He said his coma was caused by the disease itself while others claim his coma was medically induced. In either case, because his higher brain functions were [temporarily] destroyed by the disease, he argues that his NDE could not have been explained through conventional science (which says that consciousness comes from the brain).

…]

From this article, including statements from Alexander’s physician:

*In Proof of Heaven, Alexander writes that he spent seven days in “a coma caused by a rare case of E. coli bacterial meningitis.” There is no indication in the book that it was Laura Potter, and not bacterial meningitis, that induced his coma, or that the physicians in the ICU maintained his coma in the days that followed through the use of anesthetics. Alexander also writes that during his week in the ICU he was present “in body alone,” that the bacterial assault had left him with an “all-but-destroyed brain.” He notes that by conventional scientific understanding, “if you don’t have a working brain, you can’t be conscious,” and a key point of his argument for the reality of the realms he claims to have visited is that his memories could not have been hallucinations, since he didn’t possess a brain capable of creating even a hallucinatory conscious experience.

I ask Potter whether the manic, agitated state that Alexander exhibited whenever they weaned him off his anesthetics during his first days of coma would meet her definition of conscious.

“Yes,” she says. “Conscious but delirious.”*

 

[Doxiemom]

All I know is this and I will swear to you this really happened…

My mom coded out in the hospital. The woman tried to commit suicide by shoving massive amounts of mashed potatoes down her throat and yes she cut off her oxygen. ( mom was a resourceful woman even in the nursing home). She did not “die”( more to that story but I will go on)

In her room, all of us sisters were gather around her bed, waiting for her to die. One brother-in-law was on the far side of the room. He believes but is exactly what you call active in a church.

Among other things, mom starts speaking in Italian. Mom does not know Italian. Not only did we know what she was saying but to whom she was speaking to ( my dad’s Italian parents, long dead). She also says"they" are showing me my house and oh how beautiful it was! But no pearls because they know I don’t like pearls she is laughing. Asked if they were angels “I don’t know what they are but they tell me the house isn’t finished yet”-clue #1-she isn’t going to die

The she sits straight up in bed-mind you all this is with eyes closed- and says"Oh! Jesus is here. he said He is just passing by". Now at moment, the brother in law , who cannot hear my mom- says, "I don’t know what is going on, but something just “shifted”’. He felt it. clue #2 she isn’t going to die

Later, after a fuller recovery she described Jesus as laughing, and walking on beautigul sparkling water. He was wearing a prayer shawl about His head and the wind blew it off. - I think that Wind was the Holy Spirit.

mom is catholic but raised as southern Baptist.

There is much more to this story that entails things touched by God.

The point is, NDE are just that-NDE but not death itself. Jesus is there for us in our time of need. And those places he prepares for us are real. My mom’s was not ready yet. This NDE was so powerful it was felt by another in the room who was not immediately privy to what was happening.

 

[Aaron780]

Thanks so much for sharing, Aaron. Helps me keep in perspective the grief I have over those who have gone before me.I miss them dreadfully, but that doesnt mean that they are sad or unhappy. But rather, enjoying their next life even more so than this life…

We tend to forget that really, were are only, merely, pilgrims, in this life. We fight for the cultural of life, and rightfully so. But this is not what God has destined for any of us. This life is a poor reflection of something much much much greater, indeed.

That’s ok, it is comforting to know these things, yes we do miss our love ones, but they’ve moved on to a much nicer place then where we are now, FYI my mothers sister also had an NDE and her story is identical to my mums, the way she describes it and the words she uses are the same, I’ve read many NDEs before and most of them have the same things, e.g. floating above the body, extreme feelings of love and peace, the beautiful light etc., if anyone has any doubts about my mothers story then go back to the bit where she knew word for word what my father was telling me in the waiting room, now she was clinically dead, 3 floors above us on the other side of the building, lying on a bed chock a block full of tubes and cut open, yet she described exactly what we were doing and saying at that time, my old man said it gave him goosebumps when she told him, only me and my father knew what was said and were the only ones in the room, so don’t tell me dreaming can do that or its some chemical reaction in the brain nonsense, NDEs are real.

 

[Marie5890]

There’s been some controversy over what he wrote…in that he says he was brain dead, but some physicians say he was not.

.

Where the physicians who said he was not brain dead neursurgeons like himself?
I have read the book, but have not followed up on the controversy. Thanks.

 

[amoremseram]

Mainstream scientists offer many natural explanations for NDEs such as natural chemicals in the brain, the effect of anesthesia, oxygen deprivation, etc. etc. etc. There are also parts of the brain (particularly the Sylvian fissure) that when electrically stimulated produce similar experiences in the subject (a feeling of being out of the body etc. etc.). There are drugs such as DMT that also produce similar sensations. Pilots who are placed in centrifuges who pass out from excessive g-forces sometimes also report similar sensations (being out of the body, etc.). Although I think not all NDE experiences (such as the “life review”) have been simulated, the mainstream scientific community concludes that NDEs are merely hallucinations of some sort.

However, even assuming that scientists can duplicate the effects of NDEs, it would not explain some aspects of NDEs, such as:

• blind people who have NDEs often report being able to see during the NDE (even some who are blind from birth, who have no previous concept of vision), and in some cases what they see is corroborated by evidence. The Mindsight book I mentioned discusses this.
• it is rare, but there are such things as “group NDEs” where one person sees another person having an NDE. If I were hallucinating, how come another person can see my “hallucination”? And in the case of simultaneous group NDEs, how come we can see each other’s hallucinations?
• people who report being out of their body are able to make observations not observable from the patient’s body (and/or medical condition), which observations are later verified or confirmed.

These phenomena, if true, would mean that at least some NDEs are not hallucinations. The only question is whether you think all of the people who talk about these phenomena are lying or are crazy.

 

[Robin_des_Bois]

Seems like Dr Alexender was a fraud.

Esquire Unearths ‘Proof Of Heaven’ Author’s Credibility Problems
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Anyone who claims he died and went to heaven, met God and then came back to tell the tale is apt to encounter some skepticism. But nearly 2 million people found neurosurgeon Eben Alexander credible enough to buy “Proof of Heaven,” a memoir about his adventures in the afterlife.

Some of them might want their money back after reading a withering expose of Alexander’s ALX -0.26% background, written by journalist Luke Dittrich and published by Esquire. (It’s behind a paywall, but non-subscribers can purchase access for $1.99.)

Alexander, Dittrich shows, has a long history of rewriting events after the fact to make them suit his ends. His liberties with the truth range from the humorously trivial (changing the weather during the week he was in a coma for dramatic effect) to the deeply unethical (falsifying medical records to cover up the fact that he’d operated at the wrong site on a patient’s spine).

It’s not just his background. Alexander also made up or changed details of the episode that makes up “Proof of Heaven’s” narrative, including the nature of his coma: Alexander writes that he slipped into the coma as a result of severe bacterial meningitis and had no higher brain activity, while a doctor who cared for him says the coma was medically induced and the patient was conscious, though hallucinating.

Jonah Lehrer’s Sick, Cynical Quest For Forgiveness Gets A Book Deal
Jeff BercoviciJeff Bercovici
Forbes Staff
It’s far from the first time a memoir about extraordinary events turned out to contain more fiction than advertised. “A Million Little Pieces,” James Frey’s addiction-and-rehab tale, contained so little truth that its publisher, Random House, agreed to offer refunds to those who’d bought it. Penguin called off the publication of “Angel at the Fence,” a memoir about finding love in a concentration camp, when the author’s story failed to hold up on close inspection.

“Proof of Heaven” is an unusual case in that its most audacious claims are inherently unfalsifiable. Those readers who are willing to accept that Alexander met God in heaven may be unlikely to cavil over the difference between varieties of comas. And it’s worth noting that Alexander’s publisher, Simon & Schuster, is the same one that’s publishing a new book by Jonah Lehrer, the former New Yorker writer and neuroscience lecturer whose previous book was withdrawn from stores after having proved to contain falsified and plagiarized material.

A Simon & Schuster spokesman didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment. Update: The spokesman emailed this statement from Alexander:

I wrote a truthful account of my experiences in PROOF OF HEAVEN and have acknowledged in the book both my professional and personal accomplishments and my setbacks. I stand by every word in this book and have made its message the purpose of my life. Esquire’s cynical article distorts the facts of my 25-year career as a neurosurgeon and is a textbook example of how unsupported assertions and cherry-picked information can be assembled at the expense of the truth.

forbes.com/sites/jeffbercovici/2013/07/02/esquire-unearths-proof-of-heaven-authors-credibility-problems/

 

[Marie5890]

Seems like Dr Alexender was a fraud.

forbes.com/sites/jeffbercovici/2013/07/02/esquire-unearths-proof-of-heaven-authors-credibility-problems/

Fraud?

He stands behind his experience?

 

[amoremseram]

Here, for your consideration, is another point of view regarding the Esquire article:
dancingpastthedark.com/hard-times-on-the-prophet-front-eben-alexander-and-his-nde/

This one is not a neutral source (it’s a website about NDEs) but it’s just another perspective.

OTOH, the Esquire article itself is not neutral either. For example, in the discussion of Dr. Alexander’s symposium with the Dalai Lama, the Esquire article author Dittrich makes it appear that the Dalai Lama does not believe Dr. Alexander. Fortunately for us, a video of the symposium is on youtube and we can judge for ourselves, whether the Dalai Lama criticized Dr. Alexander or not (judging from the context).

youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-inGigVypl4#at=20

Please note that the first ~20 minutes of the video consists of Buddhist chanting, so if that is offensive in this forum, I apologize. In any case, here is a critique of the Esquire article regarding the Dalai Lama incident
nhne-pulse.org/a-teachable-moment-esquire-versus-dr-eben-alexander/

Based on the above, you can conclude whether the Esquire article was fair in its description of the Dalai Lama incident.

 

[cornbread_r2]

Where the physicians who said he was not brain dead neursurgeons like himself?
I have read the book, but have not followed up on the controversy. Thanks.

Here is one neuroscientist’s take on Dr. Alexander’s experience.

Since people who experience NDEs never report their experiences in real time – as they’re happening – it seems impossible to tell whether their memories of their NDEs were formed while they were technically brain-dead or were formed before or after that compromised state. Many NDEs are reported days and even weeks after the alleged events.

 

[amoremseram]

Yes, one hypothesis regarding NDEs is that they were generated after the patient’s recovery and only appear to the patient as having occurred while their brain was inactive.

The evidence against this hypothesis is that in some cases NDErs report observations of events that occurred while their brain was inactive. For example, some will report that they saw their family talking to the doctor in another room and they heard particular matters being discussed, and the family is able to corroborate that indeed such a discussion took place. If the NDE was generated after the patient’s recovery, then you would have to believe that the patient somehow became aware of past events (which is of course itself not acceptable to science).

Anyway, people can always try to come up with explanations. After all, it’s always possible that the patient was lying. As Jesus said in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, if someone won’t believe the prophets, then even if a person rises from the dead and gives them a warning about the afterlife, that person will not be convinced.

 

[Marie5890]

If there is nothing beyond this life, what a complete and total waste of life, of suffering.

Because most creatures, human or otherwise, lives are spent in a state of burden, of suffering, in the big global view, and historical view…

Those who are “blessed” with a good life of abundance or whatever, are really in the minority…

 

[Jcc1960]

One thing that I notice when looking at the wide range of NDE (reports from hundreds of people over many years) is that they tend not to be religiously specific for the most part.

In other words, some Christians expect that you will see Jesus, and there are some that do report such an experience, but the vast majority don’t report seeing Jesus, or Buddha, or 'Abdu’l-Baha, or any one of the religious figures that are central to one of the major religions.

It is more common to just see a light, to feel love and a spiritual embrace, in some cases to see and talk to people they know who passed away earlier. In the case of Eben Alexander, he sort of mapped out “areas” which are not places in heaven, but more the result of the state of being of his own soul in this case, with an area that was luminous and full of wonderful souls, but separated in some sense from the “central core” where he felt the power of God radiating from.

Fascinating, and of course impossible to prove unless you experience it yourself.

 

[amoremseram]

In other words, some Christians expect that you will see Jesus, and there are some that do report such an experience, but the vast majority don’t report seeing Jesus, or Buddha, or 'Abdu’l-Baha, or any one of the religious figures that are central to one of the major religions.

I don’t know about percentages, but I have read many who say they saw Jesus. Even an aetheist said he saw Jesus (Rev. Howard Storm was a former aetheist, who converted to Christianity after his NDE). But I agree, I have read many that are not religion-specific. But my interpretation is that they saw Jesus, but just didn’t recognize him as such.

 

[Jcc1960]

I don’t know about percentages, but I have read many who say they saw Jesus. Even an aetheist said he saw Jesus (Rev. Howard Storm was a former aetheist, who converted to Christianity after his NDE). But I agree, I have read many that are not religion-specific. But my interpretation is that they saw Jesus, but just didn’t recognize him as such.

You would expect that a Christian who encountered a luminous spiritual being in a NDE would interpret that as Jesus, and even many atheists who grew up in a Christian country might, since their belief or non-belief has been conditioned on the prevailing religious beliefs.
Many fundamentalist Christians are convinced that all NDE are from the devil.

On the other hand Muslims tend not to talk about their NDE for various reasons (for one, they tend to believe that if it is your time to die you die, and if you get sent back, maybe you were not worthy). From the ones I read, Muslims tend to see beings that they interpret as angels. Some report seeing Jesus, but that doesn’t mean they would therefore become Christians, since Muslims already believe in Jesus, and the experience would not change their belief about the nature of Jesus.

Buddhists and Hindus would be theologically comfortable with most of the NDE reports, since many of their scriptures, for instance the Buddhist Lotus Sutra paints a very similar picture to the ones described by many reports.

As a Baha’i it makes sense to me that people of different religious backgrounds would have different interpretations. I believe there is one God and each religion has a different way teaching about Him. I can see why fundamentalists of whatever religion would be very uncomfortable about NDE, since fundamentalists suffer from (in my opinion) the flawed belief that they possess all truth and everyone else is doomed.

 

[Marie5890]

Here is one neuroscientist’s take on Dr. Alexander’s experience.

Since people who experience NDEs never report their experiences in real time – as they’re happening – it seems impossible to tell whether their memories of their NDEs were formed while they were technically brain-dead or were formed before or after that compromised state. Many NDEs are reported days and even weeks after the alleged events.

Thanks for the link

Im trying to figure out if there is wide spread controversy over Dr Alexander or a handful of skeptics…

 

[amoremseram]

You would expect that a Christian who encountered a luminous spiritual being in a NDE would interpret that as Jesus, and even many atheists who grew up in a Christian country might, since their belief or non-belief has been conditioned on the prevailing religious beliefs.
Many fundamentalist Christians are convinced that all NDE are from the devil.

Yes, indeed in many NDEs, the being of light is not specifically identified, and it is merely the experiencer who believes the being was Jesus. However, many NDErs say that during the NDE they communicate “telepathically” and that they intuitively “know” things with certainty. For example, one person said that during his/her NDE s/he knew the exact number of hair follicles on another person’s head. So, given their ability to know things during the NDE, for the person to “know” that the being of light is Jesus even if the being of light did not expressly say so, is a significant statement in my opinion.