F
Faith1960
Guest
So you don’t equate the phenomenon of NDEs and OBEs with reincarnation? I thought you did. Sorry if I misunderstood you.
- Status
T
TonyBS
Guest
What becomes very obvious in Life is what the Blind can not or will not see and what results from that Blindness.
I am not talking about the Material Blind People either.
God Bless and Regards Tony
G
GEddie
Guest
No-one is arguing whether sightless people can make something of themselves. They can. That isn’t even the topic!
The issue is that without visual memory, there can be no visual imagination.
ICXC NIKA
The issue is that without visual memory, there can be no visual imagination.
ICXC NIKA
T
TonyBS
Guest
the Issue is the Soul is Independent of its Flesh Body and when relieved of the burden of the Flesh it soars free in the Knowledge of God.
Regards Tony
S
spedteacherita
Guest
Hi Memaw,
What I struggle with are those who outside of their bodies and looking at what is happening. They are able to explain in detail what the medical team was doing. One young girl saw her father in the chapel praying and her grandma and mother in the cafeteria. The mother said something about going to get a “smoke” and the grandmother said that she wanted one too. The girl was confused about that because her grandmother never smoked. They were all surprised when she awoke that she knew where they had been and the conversations that they had had.
I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut, Memaw! God bless!
T
TonyBS
Guest
The spirit is not part of the body, it has a connection while our heart beats and our mind is active.
This is one of the mysteries of the Dream World as well. That the mind activates when we reach the dream state and our spirit traverses mysterious worlds of God.
When we are free of the Body, the Soul no longer has its connection to this world. The purpose of it all is the Free Will to obtain the virtues of life. Virtues are our spiritual limbs for traversing the worlds of God.
Much written on this subject now, it is quite an amazing subject to pursue.
Regards Tony
M
Micosil
Guest
I first heard of Fr. Spitzer in a Lighthouse Catholic Media presentation. While I did find his findings to be intriguing, I am not sure they ended up convincing me. And mind you, this didn’t rattle my faith at all, all is well.
The issue I see with NDE’s is that, the way Fr. Spitzer and others seem to understand it is that the soul actually departs the body momentarily, only to come back later on. Is that something that the Catholic understanding of the soul allows?
M
Memaw
Guest
I enjoy Fr. Spitzer as well but I am not convinced that people “die” and then are sent back. When the soul leaves the body, that is death, according to the teachings of the Catholic Church. Many of the “out of body” stories are not told till awhile after the person recovers. I have set MANY times in a hospital room with very sick and dying people. I have lost 2 husbands, both parents, 2 babies, siblings, close relatives. My second husband had serious heart trouble for 15 years and had many close calls. I was with him when he died a very peaceful death. I also spent many hours with very sick people. One of my son’s had a 9 and a half hour Anyurism, (incorrect spelling), surgery. And for the life of me I don’t remember any of the conversations I had while waiting or trips to the cafeteria, etc. So if someone would have said, “I saw you here or heard you say that”, I wouldn’t be able to swear under oath it was true. Just my thoughts on the subject. God Bless, Memaw
M
Micosil
Guest
That is my understanding as well. I wonder how Fr. Spitzer, a priest who undoubtedly knows this, reconciles his findings with this teaching.
I am also saddened to hear of all your losses.
M
Memaw
Guest
Thank you and I thank God every day for my Catholic Faith. It has kept me going thru so many of life’s experiences. I think by the time anyone reaches my age, (almost 80) they have been thru much the same. I trust God, no matter what, and He has always been there and I believe made my faith even stronger. That’s why I try very hard not to depend on my own feelings in times of stress and grief. I trust Jesus and HIS Church! God Bless. MemawThat is my understanding as well. I wonder how Fr. Spitzer, a priest who undoubtedly knows this, reconciles his findings with this teaching.
I am also saddened to hear of all your losses.
S
SyroMalankara
Guest
Perhaps they are creating or joining in their experience, the voice or event they heard while semi-sedated or partially unconscious or a host or combination of many other things. The brain is adept at making a connection, it wants to make sense out of something even when it’s wrong. This is why magicians and illusionists (and charlatans) exist - our minds want to make what our eyes see make sense so it fills in gaps but not always accurately.
S
SyroMalankara
Guest
Sounds like she overheard a lot while not fully unconscious.
S
Simca
Guest
I’ve read many near-death experiences and find them fascinating.
One story I remember was of a woman who was in a very bad traffic accident. She reported flying over the incident and later was able to report everything that was happening…the ambulance arriving, etc. One thing she reported was actually hearing someone in another car saying a prayer for her.
After she had recovered, she walked right to that person’s house–whom she had never met before–and thanked her for saying that prayer. The woman verified, that, yes, she remembered both the accident and saying the prayer.
H
humble_catholic
Guest
Keith Augustine is neither a reliable source or an nde expert and he is in fact a militant atheist who has been caught twisting the facts many a time.
Lets deal with his reporting on the maria shoe nde as one of many times he has been caught trying to twist the evidence to fit into his religion of atheism.
michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2007/07/who-will-watc-4.html
For instance in the maria shoe nde he doesn’t even mention in the link you provided us (and you never bothered to check if his writings and reportings were accurate, gee I wonder why cornbread
) you never mentioned the fact that Augustine didn’t even mention in his research to us that the 2 debunkers in the maria shoe nde were untrained college students, none were even laymen in nde research. One was a graduate student in biology and the other was an an under grad student in psychology.""Augustine apparently does not notice any of the implausibilities and logical inconsistencies in the skeptical scenarios laid out by Beyerstein et al. Nor does he mention the fact that the two investigators in the case were untrained college students.
A brief item posted by the Cincinnati Skeptics also endorses the SI article’s conclusions:
Investigators have closely examined the claims made in the “Maria” case. They have found them to be invalid. It does not support NDE claims.
Again, no mention of the fact that the “investigators” were a graduate student in biology and an undergraduate student majoring in psychology.""
Now lets see what other errors Augustine made in his supposed unbiased reporting
“” In their debunking zeal, the Cincinnati Skeptics make an error of fact, saying that Maria “could have unconsciously heard about the oddly placed shoe or seen it on the ledge from inside the room.” No, she could not have seen it on the ledge from inside the room she occupied. Even the SI article doesn’t make this claim. The shoe was nowhere near her room. “”
As we can see here I showed just a tiny example of keith augustines research into ndes which I would normally call sloppy, but considering augustines writing credentials its clear that he is trying to fit the evidence into his atheistic pseudo skeptical worldview.
Might I suggest cornbread that before making posts like this that if your really searching for truth you would look at the objections to his sloppy research.
In his research in persons being blind having ndes he conveniently forgot to mention Vicki umpeg who was blind since birth and had an accurate veridical percenption of her own body and surroundings during her nde.
Keith Augustine isn’t mentioned by any serious nde researcher out there, people like dr pim van lommel, sam parnia, bruce greyson or dr Jeffrey long and for good reason, hes a militant atheist who is known for sloppy research and forgetting about the great evidence from the better ndes of life after death and the soul and will settle for nitpicking the more grey area nde’s that he could bring up some doubt on. Hes basically a conspiracy theorist sceptic.
Dr Sam parnia who himself is an agnostic and was quoted in 2010 as saying in his opinion ndes are illusions of the dying brain, changed his mind and was quoted in 2014 as saying these are not illusions because they correspond to accurately described real world events.
When asked at a conference if the aware study proved life after death he answered all it proves is that consciousness has been proven to go on for at least 3 minutes without a functioning brain.
Cornbread please show us how consciousness can go on for 3 minutes without a functioning brain if ndes are illusions caused by the brain.
Notice that keith Augustine didn’t touch the aware study as it used tight scientific protocols and caught a patient having a veridical nde for a full 3 minutes after cardiac arrest. I wonder why he didn’t jump at the chance to critique that nde?
Because it went against his atheistic beliefs
H
humble_catholic
Guest
Vicki umpegs veridical nde even though she was born blind
near-death.com/science/evidence/people-born-blind-can-see-during-nde.html
Vicki Umipeg, a forty-five year old blind woman, was just one of the more than thirty persons that Dr. Kenneth Ring and Sharon Cooper interviewed at length during a two-year study just completed concerning near-death experiences of the blind. The results of their study appear in their newest book Mindsight. Vicki was born blind, her optic nerve having been completely destroyed at birth because of an excess of oxygen she received in the incubator. Yet, she appears to have been able to see during her NDE. Her story is a particularly clear instance of how NDEs of the congenitally blind can unfold in precisely the same way as do those of sighted persons. As you will see, apart from the fact that Vicki was not able to discern color during her experience, the account of her NDE is absolutely indistinguishable from those with intact visual systems. The following is an excerpt from Dr. Ring’s latest book reprinted by permission.
Vicki told Dr. Ring she found herself floating above her body in the emergency room of a hospital following an automobile accident. She was aware of being up near the ceiling watching a male doctor and a female nurse working on her body, which she viewed from her elevated position. Vicki has a clear recollection of how she came to the realization that this was her own body below her. The following is her experience.
"I knew it was me … I was pretty thin then. I was quite tall and thin at that point. And I recognized at first that it was a body, but I didn’t even know that it was mine initially.
"Then I perceived that I was up on the ceiling, and I thought, ‘Well, that’s kind of weird. What am I doing up here?’
"I thought, ‘Well, this must be me. Am I dead? …’
“I just briefly saw this body, and … I knew that it was mine because I wasn’t in mine.”
In addition, she was able to note certain further identifying features indicating that the body she was observing was certainly her own.
“I think I was wearing the plain gold band on my right ring finger and my father’s wedding ring next to it. But my wedding ring I definitely saw … That was the one I noticed the most because it’s most unusual. It has orange blossoms on the corners of it.”
There is something extremely remarkable and provocative about Vicki’s recollection of these visual impressions, as a subsequent comment of hers implied.
“This was,” she said, “the only time I could ever relate to seeing and to what light was, because I experienced it.”
She then told them that following her out-of-body episode, which was very fast and fleeting, she found herself going up through the ceilings of the hospital until she was above the roof of the building itself, during which time she had a brief panoramic view of her surroundings. She felt very exhilarated during this ascension and enjoyed tremendously the freedom of movement she was experiencing. She also began to hear sublimely beautiful and exquisitely harmonious music akin to the sound of wind chimes.
part 1
near-death.com/science/evidence/people-born-blind-can-see-during-nde.html
Vicki Umipeg, a forty-five year old blind woman, was just one of the more than thirty persons that Dr. Kenneth Ring and Sharon Cooper interviewed at length during a two-year study just completed concerning near-death experiences of the blind. The results of their study appear in their newest book Mindsight. Vicki was born blind, her optic nerve having been completely destroyed at birth because of an excess of oxygen she received in the incubator. Yet, she appears to have been able to see during her NDE. Her story is a particularly clear instance of how NDEs of the congenitally blind can unfold in precisely the same way as do those of sighted persons. As you will see, apart from the fact that Vicki was not able to discern color during her experience, the account of her NDE is absolutely indistinguishable from those with intact visual systems. The following is an excerpt from Dr. Ring’s latest book reprinted by permission.
Vicki told Dr. Ring she found herself floating above her body in the emergency room of a hospital following an automobile accident. She was aware of being up near the ceiling watching a male doctor and a female nurse working on her body, which she viewed from her elevated position. Vicki has a clear recollection of how she came to the realization that this was her own body below her. The following is her experience.
"I knew it was me … I was pretty thin then. I was quite tall and thin at that point. And I recognized at first that it was a body, but I didn’t even know that it was mine initially.
"Then I perceived that I was up on the ceiling, and I thought, ‘Well, that’s kind of weird. What am I doing up here?’
"I thought, ‘Well, this must be me. Am I dead? …’
“I just briefly saw this body, and … I knew that it was mine because I wasn’t in mine.”
In addition, she was able to note certain further identifying features indicating that the body she was observing was certainly her own.
“I think I was wearing the plain gold band on my right ring finger and my father’s wedding ring next to it. But my wedding ring I definitely saw … That was the one I noticed the most because it’s most unusual. It has orange blossoms on the corners of it.”
There is something extremely remarkable and provocative about Vicki’s recollection of these visual impressions, as a subsequent comment of hers implied.
“This was,” she said, “the only time I could ever relate to seeing and to what light was, because I experienced it.”
She then told them that following her out-of-body episode, which was very fast and fleeting, she found herself going up through the ceilings of the hospital until she was above the roof of the building itself, during which time she had a brief panoramic view of her surroundings. She felt very exhilarated during this ascension and enjoyed tremendously the freedom of movement she was experiencing. She also began to hear sublimely beautiful and exquisitely harmonious music akin to the sound of wind chimes.
part 1
H
humble_catholic
Guest
part 2
With scarcely a noticeable transition, she then discovered she had been sucked head first into a tube and felt that she was being pulled up into it. The enclosure itself was dark, Vicki said, yet she was aware that she was moving toward light. As she reached the opening of the tube, the music that she had heard earlier seemed to be transformed into hymns and she then “rolled out” to find herself lying on grass.
She was surrounded by trees and flowers and a vast number of people. She was in a place of tremendous light, and the light, Vicki said, was something you could feel as well as see. Even the people she saw were bright.
“Everybody there was made of light. And I was made of light. What the light conveyed was love. There was love everywhere. It was like love came from the grass, love came from the birds, love came from the trees.”
Vicki then becomes aware of specific persons she knew in life who are welcoming her to this place. There are five of them. Debby and Diane were Vicki’s blind schoolmates, who had died years before, at ages 11 and 6, respectively.
In life, they had both been profoundly retarded as well as blind, but here they appeared bright and beautiful, healthy and vitally alive.
And no longer children, but, as Vicki phrased it, “in their prime.”
In addition, Vicki reports seeing two of her childhood caretakers, a couple named Mr. and Mrs. Zilk, both of whom had also previously died. Finally, there was Vicki’s grandmother - who had essentially raised Vicki and who had died just two years before this incident. In these encounters, no actual words were exchanged, Vicki says, but only feelings - feelings of love and welcome.
In the midst of this rapture, Vicki is suddenly overcome with a sense of total knowledge.
“I had a feeling like I knew everything … and like everything made sense. I just knew that this was where … this place was where I would find the answers to all the questions about life, and about the planets, and about God, and about everything … It’s like the place was the knowing.”
As these revelations are unfolding, Vicki notices that now next to her is a figure whose radiance is far greater than the illumination of any of the persons she has so far encountered. Immediately, she recognizes this being to be Jesus. He greets her tenderly, while she conveys her excitement to him about her newfound omniscience and her joy at being there with him.
Telepathically, he communicates to her.
“Isn’t it wonderful? Everything is beautiful here, and it fits together. And you’ll find that. But you can’t stay here now. It’s not your time to be here yet and you have to go back.”
Vicki reacts, understandably enough, with extreme disappointment and protests vehemently.
“No, I want to stay with you.”
But the being reassures her that she will come back, but for now, she “has to go back and learn and teach more about loving and forgiving.”
Still resistant, however, Vicki then learns that she also needs to go back to have her children. With that, Vicki, who was then childless but who “desperately wanted” to have children (and who has since given birth to three) becomes almost eager to return and finally consents.
However, before Vicki can leave, the being says to her, in these exact words, “But first, watch this.”
And what Vicki then sees is “everything from my birth” in a complete panoramic review of her life, and as she watches, the being gently comments to help her understand the significance of her actions and their repercussions.
The last thing Vicki remembers, once the life review has been completed, are the words, “You have to leave now.”
Then she experiences “a sickening thud” like a roller-coaster going backwards, and finds herself back in her body.
Such reports, replete with visual imagery, were the rule, not the exception, among Ring and Cooper’s blind respondents. Altogether, 80% of their entire sample claimed some visual perception during their near-death or out-of-body encounters. Although Vicki’s was unusual with respect to the degree of detail, it was hardly unique in their sample.
Sometimes the initial onset of visual perception of the physical world is disorienting and even disturbing to the blind. This was true for Vicki, for example, who said:
I had a hard time relating to it (i.e., seeing). I had a real difficult time relating to it because I’ve never experienced it. And it was something very foreign to me … Let’s see, how can I put it into words? It was like hearing words and not being able to understand them, but knowing that they were words. And before you’d never heard anything. But it was something new, something you’d not been able to previously attach any meaning to.
With scarcely a noticeable transition, she then discovered she had been sucked head first into a tube and felt that she was being pulled up into it. The enclosure itself was dark, Vicki said, yet she was aware that she was moving toward light. As she reached the opening of the tube, the music that she had heard earlier seemed to be transformed into hymns and she then “rolled out” to find herself lying on grass.
She was surrounded by trees and flowers and a vast number of people. She was in a place of tremendous light, and the light, Vicki said, was something you could feel as well as see. Even the people she saw were bright.
“Everybody there was made of light. And I was made of light. What the light conveyed was love. There was love everywhere. It was like love came from the grass, love came from the birds, love came from the trees.”
Vicki then becomes aware of specific persons she knew in life who are welcoming her to this place. There are five of them. Debby and Diane were Vicki’s blind schoolmates, who had died years before, at ages 11 and 6, respectively.
In life, they had both been profoundly retarded as well as blind, but here they appeared bright and beautiful, healthy and vitally alive.
And no longer children, but, as Vicki phrased it, “in their prime.”
In addition, Vicki reports seeing two of her childhood caretakers, a couple named Mr. and Mrs. Zilk, both of whom had also previously died. Finally, there was Vicki’s grandmother - who had essentially raised Vicki and who had died just two years before this incident. In these encounters, no actual words were exchanged, Vicki says, but only feelings - feelings of love and welcome.
In the midst of this rapture, Vicki is suddenly overcome with a sense of total knowledge.
“I had a feeling like I knew everything … and like everything made sense. I just knew that this was where … this place was where I would find the answers to all the questions about life, and about the planets, and about God, and about everything … It’s like the place was the knowing.”
As these revelations are unfolding, Vicki notices that now next to her is a figure whose radiance is far greater than the illumination of any of the persons she has so far encountered. Immediately, she recognizes this being to be Jesus. He greets her tenderly, while she conveys her excitement to him about her newfound omniscience and her joy at being there with him.
Telepathically, he communicates to her.
“Isn’t it wonderful? Everything is beautiful here, and it fits together. And you’ll find that. But you can’t stay here now. It’s not your time to be here yet and you have to go back.”
Vicki reacts, understandably enough, with extreme disappointment and protests vehemently.
“No, I want to stay with you.”
But the being reassures her that she will come back, but for now, she “has to go back and learn and teach more about loving and forgiving.”
Still resistant, however, Vicki then learns that she also needs to go back to have her children. With that, Vicki, who was then childless but who “desperately wanted” to have children (and who has since given birth to three) becomes almost eager to return and finally consents.
However, before Vicki can leave, the being says to her, in these exact words, “But first, watch this.”
And what Vicki then sees is “everything from my birth” in a complete panoramic review of her life, and as she watches, the being gently comments to help her understand the significance of her actions and their repercussions.
The last thing Vicki remembers, once the life review has been completed, are the words, “You have to leave now.”
Then she experiences “a sickening thud” like a roller-coaster going backwards, and finds herself back in her body.
Such reports, replete with visual imagery, were the rule, not the exception, among Ring and Cooper’s blind respondents. Altogether, 80% of their entire sample claimed some visual perception during their near-death or out-of-body encounters. Although Vicki’s was unusual with respect to the degree of detail, it was hardly unique in their sample.
Sometimes the initial onset of visual perception of the physical world is disorienting and even disturbing to the blind. This was true for Vicki, for example, who said:
I had a hard time relating to it (i.e., seeing). I had a real difficult time relating to it because I’ve never experienced it. And it was something very foreign to me … Let’s see, how can I put it into words? It was like hearing words and not being able to understand them, but knowing that they were words. And before you’d never heard anything. But it was something new, something you’d not been able to previously attach any meaning to.
H
humble_catholic
Guest
Syro this hardly explains the veridical nde that occurred at the aware study under strict scientific protocol .
telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11144442/First-hint-of-life-after-death-in-biggest-ever-scientific-study.html
First hint of ‘life after death’ in biggest ever scientific study
Southampton University scientists have found evidence that awareness can continue for at least several minutes after clinical death which was previously thought impossible
One man even recalled leaving his body entirely and watching his resuscitation from the corner of the room.
Despite being unconscious and ‘dead’ for three minutes, the 57-year-old social worker from Southampton, recounted the actions of the nursing staff in detail and described the sound of the machines.
“We know the brain can’t function when the heart has stopped beating,” said Dr Sam Parnia, a former research fellow at Southampton University, now at the State University of New York, who led the study.
“But in this case, conscious awareness appears to have continued for up to three minutes into the period when the heart wasn’t beating, even though the brain typically shuts down within 20-30 seconds after the heart has stopped.
“The man described everything that had happened in the room, but importantly, he heard two bleeps from a machine that makes a noise at three minute intervals. So we could time how long the experienced lasted for.
“He seemed very credible and everything that he said had happened to him had actually happened.”
Of 2060 cardiac arrest patients studied, 330 survived and of 140 surveyed, 39 per cent said they had experienced some kind of awareness while being resuscitated.
Although many could not recall specific details, some themes emerged. One in five said they had felt an unusual sense of peacefulness while nearly one third said time had slowed down or speeded up.
Some recalled seeing a bright light; a golden flash or the Sun shining. Others recounted feelings of fear or drowning or being dragged through deep water. 13 per cent said they had felt separated from their bodies and the same number said their sensed had been heightened.
Dr Parnia believes many more people may have experiences when they are close to death but drugs or sedatives used in the process of rescuitation may stop them remembering.
“Estimates have suggested that millions of people have had vivid experiences in relation to death but the scientific evidence has been ambiguous at best.
“Many people have assumed that these were hallucinations or illusions but they do seem to corresponded to actual events.
“And a higher proportion of people may have vivid death experiences, but do not recall them due to the effects of brain injury or sedative drugs on memory circuits.
F
Faith1960
Guest
In the case of Maria, was there or was there not a shoe on the ledge?Keith Augustine is neither a reliable source or an nde expert and he is in fact a militant atheist who has been caught twisting the facts many a time.
Lets deal with his reporting on the maria shoe nde as one of many times he has been caught trying to twist the evidence to fit into his religion of atheism.
michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2007/07/who-will-watc-4.html
For instance in the maria shoe nde he doesn’t even mention in the link you provided us (and you never bothered to check if his writings and reportings were accurate, gee I wonder why cornbread
""Augustine apparently does not notice any of the implausibilities and logical inconsistencies in the skeptical scenarios laid out by Beyerstein et al. Nor does he mention the fact that the two investigators in the case were untrained college students.
A brief item posted by the Cincinnati Skeptics also endorses the SI article’s conclusions:
Investigators have closely examined the claims made in the “Maria” case. They have found them to be invalid. It does not support NDE claims.
Again, no mention of the fact that the “investigators” were a graduate student in biology and an undergraduate student majoring in psychology.""
Now lets see what other errors Augustine made in his supposed unbiased reporting
“” In their debunking zeal, the Cincinnati Skeptics make an error of fact, saying that Maria “could have unconsciously heard about the oddly placed shoe or seen it on the ledge from inside the room.” No, she could not have seen it on the ledge yfrom inside the room she occupied. Even the SI article doesn’t make this claim. The shoe was nowhere near her room. “”
As we can see here I showed just a tiny example of keith augustines research into ndes which I would normally call sloppy, but considering augustines writing credentials its clear that he is trying to fit the evidence into his atheistic pseudo skeptical worldview.
Might I suggest cornbread that before making posts like this that if your really searching for truth you would look at the objections to his sloppy research.
In his research in persons being blind having ndes he conveniently forgot to mention Vicki umpeg who was blind since birth and had an accurate veridical percenption of her own body and surroundings during her nde.
Keith Augustine isn’t mentioned by any serious nde researcher out there, people like dr pim van lommel, sam parnia, bruce greyson or dr Jeffrey long and for good reason, hes a militant atheist who is known for sloppy research and forgetting about the great evidence from the better ndes of life after death and the soul and will settle for nitpicking the more grey area nde’s that he could bring up some doubt on. Hes basically a conspiracy theorist sceptic.
Dr Sam parnia who himself is an agnostic and was quoted in 2010 as saying in his opinion ndes are illusions of the dying brain, changed his mind and was quoted in 2014 as saying these are not illusions because they correspond to accurately described real world events.
When asked at a conference if the aware study proved life after death he answered all it proves is that consciousness has been proven to go on for at least 3 minutes without a functioning brain.
Cornbread please show us how consciousness can go on for 3 minutes without a functioning brain if ndes are illusions caused by the brain.
Notice that keith Augustine didn’t touch the aware study as it used tight scientific protocols and caught a patient having a veridical nde for a full 3 minutes after cardiac arrest. I wonder why he didn’t jump at the chance to critique that nde?
Because it went against his atheistic beliefs
H
humble_catholic
Guest
Yes faith there was a shoe on the ledge . That is why it caught the eyes of the hospital staff and ndr researchers , and she described also that the shoe was worn. I’ll try to get more detailed info 
H
humble_catholic
Guest
debunkingskeptics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1090
Maria’s famous “Shoe on the Roof” case. For those unaware, here is Maria’s account …
"The woman had been floating near the ceiling looking down on her body, during her crisis. She was able to provide precise details of her resuscitation and about the people in the room - where they stood and what they did, what each said - as well as the placement of machinery and the movement of the paper on the floor from the electrocardiogram. These details could be verified, and all of them were.
But that wasn’t all. Maria mentioned how she had moved away from her lofty perch to a point outside her hospital room where she could look down at the emergency room entrance. She described the curvature of the driveway, vehicles driving in one direction, and the automatic doors. She remembered staring closely at an object on a window ledge about three stories above the ground. It was a man’s dark blue tennis shoe, well-worn, scuffed on the left side where the little toe would go. The shoelace was caught under the heel." - P.M.H Atwater, "The Complete Idiots Guide To Near-Death Experiences
Dr. Kimberly Clark Sharp was present in the room when Maria was resuscitated, and Maria recounted this experience directly to her. She did not believe Maria, and told her it was just a hallucination, but Maria was insistent. So, Dr. Kimberly Clark Sharp went up to the third floor, and found the tennis shoe, on top of a window ledge, she had to reach up and around to grab it. You could obviously only see any details on it if you were staring at it directly from above, as Maria claimed. She went back down to Maria’s floor, asked her again to describe the shoe, and pulled out the shoe. Dr. Kimberly Clark Sharp became an NDE Researcher after that incident.
Maria’s famous “Shoe on the Roof” case. For those unaware, here is Maria’s account …
"The woman had been floating near the ceiling looking down on her body, during her crisis. She was able to provide precise details of her resuscitation and about the people in the room - where they stood and what they did, what each said - as well as the placement of machinery and the movement of the paper on the floor from the electrocardiogram. These details could be verified, and all of them were.
But that wasn’t all. Maria mentioned how she had moved away from her lofty perch to a point outside her hospital room where she could look down at the emergency room entrance. She described the curvature of the driveway, vehicles driving in one direction, and the automatic doors. She remembered staring closely at an object on a window ledge about three stories above the ground. It was a man’s dark blue tennis shoe, well-worn, scuffed on the left side where the little toe would go. The shoelace was caught under the heel." - P.M.H Atwater, "The Complete Idiots Guide To Near-Death Experiences
Dr. Kimberly Clark Sharp was present in the room when Maria was resuscitated, and Maria recounted this experience directly to her. She did not believe Maria, and told her it was just a hallucination, but Maria was insistent. So, Dr. Kimberly Clark Sharp went up to the third floor, and found the tennis shoe, on top of a window ledge, she had to reach up and around to grab it. You could obviously only see any details on it if you were staring at it directly from above, as Maria claimed. She went back down to Maria’s floor, asked her again to describe the shoe, and pulled out the shoe. Dr. Kimberly Clark Sharp became an NDE Researcher after that incident.
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