NDE's (Near Death Experiences)

[benhur]

What are the various opinions and thoughts of the members here about NDE’s? I’ve seen various stories on YouTube and have been intrigued by what the people involved have “learned” from their experiences. Each one generally has a bright light that generates a warmth and love that they’ve not experienced on Earth. One person experienced some demons from Hell and after he called out to Jesus he was brought into the light. Another person experienced the warmth and light but came back understanding that we become reincarnated as another person.

What do your faith traditions teach about NDE’s or do they?

Thanks!

Rita

Hi Rita,

As in all things , we can be good at observation but faulty with conclusions (and sometimes just faulty with observation.) Visions can also be demonic, as well as from the Father.

As an example, many folks talk of the light, and the wonderful feeling they get from that light and that maybe a good observation . Now for the conclusion, many will then say ,“nothing to fear upon death, it is all positive” . But a few may conclude that indeed the Light is beautiful and exudes goodness, and warmth, and much desired to be with. But the final judgement has not happened yet .The person returns back to his body. Their conclusion is that you definitely do not want to be turned away from such a Wonder, and that it would be horrible to be separated form such "love and warmth ", a hell in itself .

Two different conclusions of the same observed experience .We need to be looking for the “rest of the story”, to make the complete picture. As Christians , we certainly have heard from that very Light, even have a down payment of that Light in us, and hopefully with a portion of that peace to fully come, that surpasses all.

Blessings

 

[humble_catholic]

Hi Rita,

As in all things , we can be good at observation but faulty with conclusions (and sometimes just faulty with observation.) Visions can also be demonic, as well as from the Father.

As an example, many folks talk of the light, and the wonderful feeling they get from that light and that maybe a good observation . Now for the conclusion, many will then say ,“nothing to fear upon death, it is all positive” . But a few may conclude that indeed the Light is beautiful and exudes goodness, and warmth, and much desired to be with. But the final judgement has not happened yet .The person returns back to his body. Their conclusion is that you definitely do not want to be turned away from such a Wonder, and that it would be horrible to be separated form such "love and warmth ", a hell in itself .

Two different conclusions of the same observed experience .We need to be looking for the “rest of the story”, to make the complete picture. As Christians , we certainly have heard from that very Light, even have a down payment of that Light in us, and hopefully with a portion of that peace to fully come, that surpasses all.

Blessings

Plus don’t forget the new community which is mostly new agers conveniently forget about the hellish nudes experienced by quite a few people .they keep these three bags away from
The media .

 

[benhur]

Plus don’t forget the new community which is mostly new agers conveniently forget about the hellish nudes experienced by quite a few people .they keep these three bags away from
The media .

View attachment 22910Hieronymus Bosch

 

[humble_catholic]

View attachment 22910Hieronymus Bosch

I hate my typos

 

[Memaw]

Hi Rita,

As in all things , we can be good at observation but faulty with conclusions (and sometimes just faulty with observation.) Visions can also be demonic, as well as from the Father.

As an example, many folks talk of the light, and the wonderful feeling they get from that light and that maybe a good observation . Now for the conclusion, many will then say ,“nothing to fear upon death, it is all positive” . But a few may conclude that indeed the Light is beautiful and exudes goodness, and warmth, and much desired to be with. But the final judgement has not happened yet .The person returns back to his body. Their conclusion is that you definitely do not want to be turned away from such a Wonder, and that it would be horrible to be separated form such "love and warmth ", a hell in itself .

Two different conclusions of the same observed experience .We need to be looking for the “rest of the story”, to make the complete picture. As Christians , we certainly have heard from that very Light, even have a down payment of that Light in us, and hopefully with a portion of that peace to fully come, that surpasses all.

Blessings

God Bless, Memaw

 

[TonyBS]

God Bless, Memaw

It would be worth considering that NDE are experienced by all Races and all Religious Backgrounds.

Many relate that they were brought to account for their earthly deeds.

This proves Gods Grace, Bounty, Forgiveness and Mercy embraces all.

It would be that The experience was just a flash of the spiritual world, if it was not they would not come back.

There is a lot to consider with this and why God has given these events to be recorded in this day of when knoewledge is increasing.

Regards Tony

 

[Memaw]

It would be worth considering that NDE are experienced by all Races and all Religious Backgrounds.

Many relate that they were brought to account for their earthly deeds.

This proves Gods Grace, Bounty, Forgiveness and Mercy embraces all.

It would be that The experience was just a flash of the spiritual world, if it was not they would not come back.

There is a lot to consider with this and why God has given these events to be recorded in this day of when knoewledge is increasing.

Regards Tony

As we all know, God allows a lot of things to go on but is not the cause of all of the things going on in our society. Your right, there is a lot to consider with this. God is a God of unity, not confusion. God Bless, Memaw

 

[mtolympus]

It would be worth considering that NDE are experienced by all Races and all Religious Backgrounds.

Many relate that they were brought to account for their earthly deeds.

This proves Gods Grace, Bounty, Forgiveness and Mercy embraces all.

It would be that The experience was just a flash of the spiritual world, if it was not they would not come back.

There is a lot to consider with this and why God has given these events to be recorded in this day of when knoewledge is increasing.

Regards Tony

You are right and your thoughts are confirmed in the bible. Paul tells us that everyone, both good and evil, will appear before Jesus when we die and (our spirits) “leave the body and go home to the Lord” (2 Cor 5:8).

“For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.” (2 Cor 5:10)

This first judgement by Jesus in the Spirit World will divide those whose “deeds” have been “good” or “evil.” The Spirit World is divided into paradise and hell as shown in the parable of the rich man and the beggar. (Luke 16:19-31)

(This is not our final judgement which occurs when we are resurrected.)

 

[cornbread_r2]

Keith Augustine is neither a reliable source or an nde expert and he is in fact a militant atheist who has been caught twisting the facts many a time.

Lets deal with his reporting on the maria shoe nde as one of many times he has been caught trying to twist the evidence to fit into his religion of atheism.

michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2007/07/who-will-watc-4.html

For instance in the maria shoe nde he doesn’t even mention in the link you provided us (and you never bothered to check if his writings and reportings were accurate, gee I wonder why cornbread ) you never mentioned the fact that Augustine didn’t
even mention in his research to us that the 2 debunkers in the maria shoe nde were untrained college students, none were even laymen in nde research. One was a graduate student in biology and the other was an an under grad student in psychology.

""Augustine apparently does not notice any of the implausibilities and logical inconsistencies in the skeptical scenarios laid out by Beyerstein et al. Nor does he mention the fact that the two investigators in the case were untrained college students.

A brief item posted by the Cincinnati Skeptics also endorses the SI article’s conclusions:

Investigators have closely examined the claims made in the “Maria” case. They have found them to be invalid. It does not support NDE claims.

Again, no mention of the fact that the “investigators” were a graduate student in biology and an undergraduate student majoring in psychology.""

As a matter of style, Augustine didn’t disclose the qualifications of any of the researchers he cited in the body of the essay. He did, however, name them and cited their original articles for anyone to access so it wasn’t like he was attempting to hide anything. If you think he had an obligation to detail their CVs in the body of the essay, then wouldn’t you be guilty of the same offense for not disclosing that your source, Michael Prescott, is a fiction writer with apparently no substantive experience in NDE research?

What qualifications were the shoe investigators supposed to have? How much special training does it take to investigate whether a shoe can be seen or not?

You’ll note too that Prescott didn’t even attempt to dispute the investigator’s findings and focused entirely on their credentials – and that was coming from the man who complained bitterly about skeptics nit-picking!

Now lets see what other errors Augustine made in his supposed unbiased reporting

“” In their debunking zeal, the Cincinnati Skeptics make an error of fact, saying that Maria “could have unconsciously heard about the oddly placed shoe or seen it on the ledge from inside the room.” No, she could not have seen it on the ledge from inside the room she occupied. Even the SI article doesn’t make this claim. The shoe was nowhere near her room. “”

As we can see here I showed just a tiny example of keith augustines research into ndes which I would normally call sloppy, but considering augustines writing credentials its clear that he is trying to fit the evidence into his atheistic pseudo skeptical worldview.

Might I suggest cornbread that before making posts like this that if your really searching for truth you would look at the objections to his sloppy research.

Prescott doesn’t identify his source for that quote so I can’t verify its accuracy, but one thing is certain. That quote doesn’t appear anywhere in Augustine’s essay, so if it’s in error, the error wasn’t Augustine’s.

Your examples of errors amounts to one irrelvancy (credentials) and one quote that wasn’t even from Augustine. I’m not impressed.

…]

Cornbread please show us how consciousness can go on for 3 minutes without a functioning brain if ndes are illusions caused by the brain.

…]

As I understand it, a brain that is really and truly non-functional can’t form memories. In that all NDEs are memories, then I think the inescapable conclusion is that NDEs cannot occur during the time when a brain is supposedly non-functional.

 

[humble_catholic]

Cornbread I will dissect your post a few points at a time since I am at work .

““As I understand it, a brain that is really and truly non-functional can’t form memories. In that all NDEs are memories, then I think the inescapable conclusion is that NDEs cannot occur during the time when a brain is supposedly non-functional.””

That is because you assume brain =mind when in fact Doctor parnia (an agnostic himself ) is saying , that the aware study Nde happened during the time that the brain is non functional , but who is saying that the memories are forming inside the brain .and your assuming that because the non functional brain cannot firm memories therefore it couldn’t happe, but that is in fact when these events are happening , so that means your assumption is faulty .

Now how these memories are being brought back into the brain is not known . World renowned physicist and atheist sir Roger penrose believes that micro tubules I’m the brain are bringing back the memories of these supernatural experiences into the brain .

Parnia in 2010 believed that ndes are probably illusions created by the dying brain . He changed his mind not because of his religious beliefs and he changed his mind from his own research .

In conclusion the only reason you think an Nde during a non brain functional state is impossible is because of your worldview corn bread, yet the evidence is totally against you .

I can site many Nde researchers who have done research into the field that agree with me . Please try to site any that agree with you it Keith Augustine .

In fact Augustine sites Susan Blackmore a few times as a acrostic Nde researcher .

Do you really wanna know how current Susan Blackmore is on Nde research and if she even talks about them anymore ?

I know all the skeptics as well as the proponents . This is why no one in the Nde community takes Augustine seriously

 

[humble_catholic]

Also forgot to note that the atheist physicist roger penrose now believed in the soul and the afterlife because the scientists fix evidence from Nde research is that strong and is now corroborating with another atheist dr Stuart hameroff on their micro tubule theory where these microtubules receiver and send off quantum information .

There is a video from the atheist conference beyond belief where his fellow atheists hammer mercilessly at hameroff but he holds his own very nicely , even against Lawrence Krauss, who while being an infantile philosopher and critical thinker is a great physicist .

youtu.be/kmdJtSwH9O4

youtu.be/yv32Ai0YRck

 

[Marie5890]

It’s also important to point out that neurology has been able to duplicate many NDE’s phenomena (i.e. the sense of floating out and above one’s body for example) by stimulating certain areas of the brain.

So it could be that many a NDE is due to what is happening to the brain as oppose to what is happening to the soul…

We should not bury our heads in the sand on the science side of it…after all, we are Catholic, and we believe in ethical science.

 

[SyroMalankara]

debunkingskeptics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1090

Maria’s famous “Shoe on the Roof” case. For those unaware, here is Maria’s account …

"The woman had been floating near the ceiling looking down on her body, during her crisis. She was able to provide precise details of her resuscitation and about the people in the room - where they stood and what they did, what each said - as well as the placement of machinery and the movement of the paper on the floor from the electrocardiogram. These details could be verified, and all of them were.

But that wasn’t all. Maria mentioned how she had moved away from her lofty perch to a point outside her hospital room where she could look down at the emergency room entrance. She described the curvature of the driveway, vehicles driving in one direction, and the automatic doors. She remembered staring closely at an object on a window ledge about three stories above the ground. It was a man’s dark blue tennis shoe, well-worn, scuffed on the left side where the little toe would go. The shoelace was caught under the heel." - P.M.H Atwater, "The Complete Idiots Guide To Near-Death Experiences

Dr. Kimberly Clark Sharp was present in the room when Maria was resuscitated, and Maria recounted this experience directly to her. She did not believe Maria, and told her it was just a hallucination, but Maria was insistent. So, Dr. Kimberly Clark Sharp went up to the third floor, and found the tennis shoe, on top of a window ledge, she had to reach up and around to grab it. You could obviously only see any details on it if you were staring at it directly from above, as Maria claimed. She went back down to Maria’s floor, asked her again to describe the shoe, and pulled out the shoe. Dr. Kimberly Clark Sharp became an NDE Researcher after that incident.

I’m debunking this account. I believe the “Dr.” has a vested interest, as a NDE promoter and writer. She is also not a medical professional but a social worker, holding an Master of Social Work degree. She’s also made a good living out of it, billed as the “near-death comedienne”. Not a Doctor, not PhD and not a unbiased observer.

 

[humble_catholic]

It’s also important to point out that neurology has been able to duplicate many NDE’s phenomena (i.e. the sense of floating out and above one’s body for example) by stimulating certain areas of the brain.

So it could be that many a NDE is due to what is happening to the brain as oppose to what is happening to the soul…

We should not bury our heads in the sand on the science side of it…after all, we are Catholic, and we believe in ethical science.

There is no objectively verifiable info in these stimulated brains . In a verification Nde there are objectively verifiable experiences going on.
The awAre study is one such example which is to date the largest peer reviewed Nde study ever conducted .

Aware 2 is under way and if they hit 3 to 5 bulls eyes on the digital signs the materialistic paradigm will start cracking

This s is when atheists will truly start to panic

 

[humble_catholic]

I’m debunking this account. I believe the “Dr.” has a vested interest, as a NDE promoter and writer. She is also not a medical professional but a social worker, holding an Master of Social Work degree. She’s also made a good living out of it, billed as the “near-death comedienne”. Not a Doctor, not PhD and not a unbiased observer.

She is an Nde researcher and that is the point . Her work is also used by the godfather of. Modern Nde research dr Bruce Greyson . I suppose his credentials aren’t good enough ?

 

[cornbread_r2]

I’m debunking this account. I believe the “Dr.” has a vested interest, as a NDE promoter and writer. She is also not a medical professional but a social worker, holding an Master of Social Work degree. She’s also made a good living out of it, billed as the “near-death comedienne”. Not a Doctor, not PhD and not a unbiased observer.

Well this is rich.

My intellectual honesty was impugned for not mentioning that Keith Augustine didn’t disclose the qualifications of two minor NDE investigators in his essay. This same person then turns right around and not only doesn’t mention that his linked source doesn’t disclose the qualifications of a major NDE researcher – but also doesn’t bother to disclose that his source actually grossly misrepresented her qualifications! And then brushes it all off as being of no consequence!

 

[SyroMalankara]

She is an Nde researcher and that is the point . Her work is also used by the godfather of. Modern Nde research dr Bruce Greyson . I suppose his credentials aren’t good enough ?

Credentials? I’d like reliable data, not credentials.

skepdic.com/nde.html

One way to avoid contamination of stories has been developed by University of North Texas professor Dr. Jan Holden. She designed an experiment in which a laptop computer that opens flat hangs from the ceiling with the screen facing away from the floor. Her husband developed a software program that produces a series of animations. If a patient claims to have been floating above her body on the operating table, then she ought to have seen the computer screen and be able to report on what she saw. Dr. Bruce Greyson has apparently been using this protocol for a few years but so far has not reported anything of interest.*

And even more interesting (doubtfulnews.com/2014/10/one-not-too-impressive-study-does-not-prove-life-after-death/):
*Some parapsychologists are not so impressed.

I contacted Dr. Caroline Watt,Senior Researcher at the Koestler Parapsychology Unit at the University of Edinburgh.

She told me that the objective verifiable test of awareness was hidden images on shelves. 140 cardiac arrest survivors were tested. Only one gave an account of awareness.

The one ‘verifiable period of conscious awareness’ that Parnia was able to report did not relate to this objective test. Rather, it was a patient giving a supposedly accurate report of events during his resuscitation.

He didn’t identify the pictures, he described the defibrillator machine noise. But that’s not very impressive since many people know what goes on in an emergency room setting from seeing recreations on television. Dr. Watt calls this a “non-convincing account from a single patient”.*

AWARE—AWAreness during REsuscitation—A prospective study: resuscitationjournal.com/article/S0300-9572(14)00739-4/fulltext

And a PhD nurse who is an NDE believer tested this with 0 correct responses (sciencebasedlife.wordpress.com/2011/09/13/near-death-experiences-science-after-all/):
For example, Dr. Penny Sartori placed playing cards in obvious places on top of operating room cabinets at a hospital in Wales in 2001, while she was working as a nurse, as part of a supervised experiment. Although she’s a believer in the afterlife, and documented fifteen cases of reported out-of-body experiences by patients during her research, not one person ever reported seeing the playing cards or even knowing they were there. We would expect differently if patients were actually floating around up there.

 

[cornbread_r2]

Cornbread I will dissect your post a few points at a time since I am at work .

““As I understand it, a brain that is really and truly non-functional can’t form memories. In that all NDEs are memories, then I think the inescapable conclusion is that NDEs cannot occur during the time when a brain is supposedly non-functional.””

That is because you assume brain =mind when in fact Doctor parnia (an agnostic himself ) is saying , that the aware study Nde happened during the time that the brain is non functional , but who is saying that the memories are forming inside the brain .and your assuming that because the non functional brain cannot firm memories therefore it couldn’t happe, but that is in fact when these events are happening , so that means your assumption is faulty .

Now how these memories are being brought back into the brain is not known . World renowned physicist and atheist sir Roger penrose believes that micro tubules I’m the brain are bringing back the memories of these supernatural experiences into the brain .

…]

Frankly, I don’t have a clue what your first paragraph means, but I stand by my claim that a truly non-functional brain cannot form memories until such time as Penrose or someone else actually produces evidence for memories being implanted in a non-functional brain.

In addition, see this article by neuroscientist Steve Novella regarding the reported NDE of Eben Alexander for why it’s not possible to determine exactly when NDEs are occurring even in brains that are minimally functional.

 

[Memaw]

It’s also important to point out that neurology has been able to duplicate many NDE’s phenomena (i.e. the sense of floating out and above one’s body for example) by stimulating certain areas of the brain.

So it could be that many a NDE is due to what is happening to the brain as oppose to what is happening to the soul…

We should not bury our heads in the sand on the science side of it…after all, we are Catholic, and we believe in ethical science.

AMEN and God Bless, Memaw

 

[humble_catholic]

Credentials? I’d like reliable data, not credentials.

skepdic.com/nde.html

One way to avoid contamination of stories has been developed by University of North Texas professor Dr. Jan Holden. She designed an experiment in which a laptop computer that opens flat hangs from the ceiling with the screen facing away from the floor. Her husband developed a software program that produces a series of animations. If a patient claims to have been floating above her body on the operating table, then she ought to have seen the computer screen and be able to report on what she saw. Dr. Bruce Greyson has apparently been using this protocol for a few years but so far has not reported anything of interest.*

And even more interesting (doubtfulnews.com/2014/10/one-not-too-impressive-study-does-not-prove-life-after-death/):
*Some parapsychologists are not so impressed.

I contacted Dr. Caroline Watt,Senior Researcher at the Koestler Parapsychology Unit at the University of Edinburgh.

She told me that the objective verifiable test of awareness was hidden images on shelves. 140 cardiac arrest survivors were tested. Only one gave an account of awareness.

The one ‘verifiable period of conscious awareness’ that Parnia was able to report did not relate to this objective test. Rather, it was a patient giving a supposedly accurate report of events during his resuscitation.

He didn’t identify the pictures, he described the defibrillator machine noise. But that’s not very impressive since many people know what goes on in an emergency room setting from seeing recreations on television. Dr. Watt calls this a “non-convincing account from a single patient”.*

AWARE—AWAreness during REsuscitation—A prospective study: resuscitationjournal.com/article/S0300-9572(14)00739-4/fulltext

And a PhD nurse who is an NDE believer tested this with 0 correct responses (sciencebasedlife.wordpress.com/2011/09/13/near-death-experiences-science-after-all/):
For example, Dr. Penny Sartori placed playing cards in obvious places on top of operating room cabinets at a hospital in Wales in 2001, while she was working as a nurse, as part of a supervised experiment. Although she’s a believer in the afterlife, and documented fifteen cases of reported out-of-body experiences by patients during her research, not one person ever reported seeing the playing cards or even knowing they were there. We would expect differently if patients were actually floating around up there.

You are quoting from old studies and by asked atheist sites. The aware study verification Nde was timed and proven objective very accurate . It’s apparent that for some reason you don’t want ndes to be true so it makes no sense arguing this point any further with you .
God bless