NDE's (Near Death Experiences)

[humble_catholic]

Frankly, I don’t have a clue what your first paragraph means, but I stand by my claim that a truly non-functional brain cannot form memories until such time as Penrose or someone else actually produces evidence for memories being implanted in a non-functional brain.

In addition, see this article by neuroscientist Steve Novella regarding the reported NDE of Eben Alexander for why it’s not possible to determine exactly when NDEs are occurring even in brains that are minimally functional.

Cornbread your assuming that because a non functional brain can’t firm any memories therefore this experience didn’t happen .ths is circular logic. How do you this and what makes you think that this experience happened in the brain . This is the point that I’ve been making is that the evidence shows it not to be happening in the brain . Now how does the information and memory of this experience enter into the brain afterward ?
Here is an honest answer
We don’t know .
But the evidence all points to it not happening in the brain .

As far as Doctor novella , I’ll point to an article that shows that clearly when novella talks about ndes he gets extremely sloppy in his research . Granted he is a very qualified neurologist but this article will clearly show his emotional side and bias against ndes

 

[humble_catholic]

skeptiko.com/steven-novella-dead-wrong-on-near-death-experience-research/

Here novella gets this point about the differences between hypoxia and nde’s completely wrong . This is only one of many reasons the vast majority of Nde scientists believe that ndes are real .

""These experiences are remarkably similar to what happens to the brain when it is deprived of oxygen.”

So the symptoms that are commonly reported, the most common symptoms for cerebral hypoxia – look this up on the Web and any kind of medical journal you want. The common symptoms are inattentiveness, poor judgment, confusion, amnesia, and we have all sorts of research on hypoxia, right?* And we also have hypoxia in a bunch of different situations: airline pilots, choking, being underwater. All these different things where we have hypoxia. And we see these same symptoms cropping up. They come out a little bit differently in different ways, but it’s always this inattentiveness, confusion, amnesia.

Now let’s see the symptoms of ndes . Novella doesn’t even understand that there is a scale to differentiate between ndes and other types of experiences including hypoxia and that is the Greyson scale which is used by all Nde researchers.

Now let’s look at the symptoms of a near-death experience: increased awareness, increased lucidity. If you remember when we had Jeff Long on the show where he did this research and he surveyed 1,300 near-death experiencers and he found that 76% of them, when asked the question “What was your level of consciousness during the near-death experience?” responded that it was greater than everyday consciousness. So these patients are telling us that they were more aware, more conscious during their NDE than they are during their normal waking life.
And they say things like – and these are exact quotes:

• “I was more conscious and alert than normal.”
• “Very real,”
• “Realer than real,”
• “Reality is over there,”
• “Felt like I was awake,”
• “It was the most real I’ve ever known.”

This is just one of many things that novella got completely wrong on ndes cornbread .
And your using novella to back your beliefs on ndes ?

Cornbread why not try researching from the actual Nde experts instead of people like novella who have no Nde research experience at all . Oh and if you had researched novella you would have known that he is part of some very unbiased groups
Such as the New England skeptical society which is basically a materialist atheist society .

Why not delve into the actual Nde studies and see what the evidence and scientific consensus from the actual Nde scientists are saying ?

After all , don’t atheists claim to be free thinkers ?

 

[humble_catholic]

Credentials? I’d like reliable data, not credentials.

skepdic.com/nde.html

One way to avoid contamination of stories has been developed by University of North Texas professor Dr. Jan Holden. She designed an experiment in which a laptop computer that opens flat hangs from the ceiling with the screen facing away from the floor. Her husband developed a software program that produces a series of animations. If a patient claims to have been floating above her body on the operating table, then she ought to have seen the computer screen and be able to report on what she saw. Dr. Bruce Greyson has apparently been using this protocol for a few years but so far has not reported anything of interest.*

And even more interesting (doubtfulnews.com/2014/10/one-not-too-impressive-study-does-not-prove-life-after-death/):
*Some parapsychologists are not so impressed.

I contacted Dr. Caroline Watt,Senior Researcher at the Koestler Parapsychology Unit at the University of Edinburgh.

She told me that the objective verifiable test of awareness was hidden images on shelves. 140 cardiac arrest survivors were tested. Only one gave an account of awareness.

The one ‘verifiable period of conscious awareness’ that Parnia was able to report did not relate to this objective test. Rather, it was a patient giving a supposedly accurate report of events during his resuscitation.

He didn’t identify the pictures, he described the defibrillator machine noise. But that’s not very impressive since many people know what goes on in an emergency room setting from seeing recreations on television. Dr. Watt calls this a “non-convincing account from a single patient”.*

AWARE—AWAreness during REsuscitation—A prospective study: resuscitationjournal.com/article/S0300-9572(14)00739-4/fulltext

And a PhD nurse who is an NDE believer tested this with 0 correct responses (sciencebasedlife.wordpress.com/2011/09/13/near-death-experiences-science-after-all/):
For example, Dr. Penny Sartori placed playing cards in obvious places on top of operating room cabinets at a hospital in Wales in 2001, while she was working as a nurse, as part of a supervised experiment. Although she’s a believer in the afterlife, and documented fifteen cases of reported out-of-body experiences by patients during her research, not one person ever reported seeing the playing cards or even knowing they were there. We would expect differently if patients were actually floating around up there.

Correct and you translate this to mean verification ndes are not real ?
You do know that they are in the process of refining these studies don’t you ?
The verification Nde at the aware study in which the 57 year old patient had a completely objectively accurate veridical Nde did not have a digital sign placed in his room .

In aware part 2 which is 4% done now they are placing signs on all the rooms and only including patients that survived cardiac arrest and had a veridical Nde . This should produce a few bulls eyes which will give atheists nightmares .

What I don’t understand is why are you against ndes ?

I never argued that they prove one religion over another , what they do is strike a bear fatal blow to atheism .

 

[cornbread_r2]

Cornbread your assuming that because a non functional brain can’t firm any memories therefore this experience didn’t happen .ths is circular logic.

I have never denied that people experience NDEs. Though I’m sure you’ll disagree, here’s my argument in the form of a syllogism.

P1: An extremely important function of a brain is forming memories.

P2: By definition, a truly non-functional brain cannot form memories.

C1: Therefore, if the memory of an NDE is being formed, it is being formed in a functional – and not a truly non-functional – brain.

C2: There is nothing unusual about functioning brains forming memories – even memories that are unusual in character (e.g. dreams and hallucinations).

How do you this and what makes you think that this experience happened in the brain . This is the point that I’ve been making is that the evidence shows it not to be happening in the brain . Now how does the information and memory of this experience enter into the brain afterward ?
Here is an honest answer
We don’t know .
But the evidence all points to it not happening in the brain…

What is your single-most, knock-down, sure-fire piece of evidence that NDEs are occurring outside the brain?

As far as Doctor novella , I’ll point to an article that shows that clearly when novella talks about ndes he gets extremely sloppy in his research . Granted he is a very qualified neurologist but this article will clearly show his emotional side and bias against ndes

Are you unbiased? If you aren’t, then how much attention should I pay to you?

 

[GEddie]

What I don’t understand is why are you against ndes ?

I’m not him.

However, many people are against them simply because they seem not to result from anything but a suffocating head. That’s a valid objection, and it is why although I am not at all anti NDE, I choose not to put faith in it.

I also think that NDE anecdotes are overused to try to “prove” the human afterlife. If NDE is ever disproven, those who do that will have a lot of rethinking and retraction to do.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Memaw]

I’m not him.

However, many people are against them simply because they seem not to result from anything but a suffocating head. That’s a valid objection, and it is why although I am not at all anti NDE, I choose not to put faith in it.

I also think that NDE anecdotes are overused to try to “prove” the human afterlife. If NDE is ever disproven, those who do that will have a lot of rethinking and retraction to do.

ICXC NIKA

I agree, but in the meantime why don’t we just trust God and prepare for our own true face to face encounter with our Savior. We shouldn’t need “proof” of an afterlife, We have God’s word on that. That’s enough for me. HE will answer all our questions when we meet. God Bless, Memaw

 

[humble_catholic]

I’m not him.

However, many people are against them simply because they seem not to result from anything but a suffocating head. That’s a valid objection, and it is why although I am not at all anti NDE, I choose not to put faith in it.

I also think that NDE anecdotes are overused to try to “prove” the human afterlife. If NDE is ever disproven, those who do that will have a lot of rethinking and retraction to do.

ICXC NIKA

Geddie, so you believe that the aware study veridical Nde which happened under strict protocols and was even timed to have happened during the period of non brain functionality after a cardiac arrest for a full 3 minutes and brought back objective belt verifiable information happened because of a suffocating brain ?

I’m sorry but the evidence itself says otherwise , as well as over 30 years of Nde research .
How do you explain atheists having them , especially the peak in Darien variety experienced by atheists such as Doctor even Alexander where he sees a beautiful spirit guide who guides him through this ultra rich realm of peace and love only to find out later that she was the sister he never knew about .

How do you explain the veridical Nde of Vicky umpeg who was born blind ?

I’m sorry but I see more emotion then research from the sceptical responses .
They are instead of going to the researchers themselves , going to atheist sceptical resources , like my Catholic brother just did without even checking if these websites were accurate or biased .

There is a reason why the overwhelming majority of the Nde scientists today do not believe that ndes are being caused by a suffocating brain .
Why not look into the reasons why ?

Pim van lomnel is one example who was a materialist atheist before his peer reviewed lancet study and is no longer one .

Ndes don’t prove or disprove one religion over another and like Gary habermas said , all they do is point compellingly to the soul and afterlife .
Gary habermas brought this up beautifully in that he focuses on the veridical data that can be proved and not the subjective parts of the Nde which cannot be proven .

 

[Simca]

A very common denominator among NDE’s is that the person goes through a life review.
I have sometimes thought this is just the result of the brain downloading all of its memories because it thinks it is dying, so it is emptying itself.

This, however, does not explain how the life reviews are usually conducted by a third party, or “Supreme being”, as some have said. It especially doesn’t account for how the person is shown specifically how their actions affected others–in very specific incidents. This is something we can’t know, so I can’t see how NDE’s are purely the result of an oxygen-deprived brain or merely just delusions, etc.

 

[GEddie]

A very common denominator among NDE’s is that the person goes through a life review.
I have sometimes thought this is just the result of the brain downloading all of its memories because it thinks it is dying, so it is emptying itself.

This, however, does not explain how the life reviews are usually conducted by a third party, or “Supreme being”, as some have said. It especially doesn’t account for how the person is shown specifically how their actions affected others–in very specific incidents. This is something we can’t know, so I can’t see how NDE’s are purely the result of an oxygen-deprived brain or merely just delusions, etc.

Downloading the memories to where?

There is no evolutionary reason for the mind to “format” itself prior to becoming dead. It’s not like it is going to restart at a later time.

Also, our heads are not digital. Stuff would not “dump” sequentially. I’d expect that any images formed would be increasingly jumbled and confusing as death closed upon the mind, but in NDE, that does not seem to occur.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Simca]

Downloading the memories to where?

Also, our heads are not digital. Stuff would not “dump” sequentially. I’d expect that any images formed would be increasingly jumbled and confusing as death closed upon the mind, but in NDE, that does not seem to occur.

ICXC NIKA

Yes, you’re right…If our brain was emptying its memories and we were reliving them as we died, it probably wouldn’t be sequential…that makes a lot of sense, but I guess you never know… All the more to wonder about the reality of NDE’s…

 

[cornbread_r2]

…]

Pim van lomnel is one example who was a materialist atheist before his peer reviewed lancet study and is no longer one .

…]

Just because someone changes their opinion on an issue doesn’t mean that they had good or even rational reasons for doing so. Accordingly, see this devastating critique of Lommel’s work by Jason Braithwaite, Senior Lecturer in Cognitive Neuroscience in the Behavioural Brain Sciences Centre at the University of Birmingham.

Throughout this thread you’ve made a point of noting the atheistic views of the skeptics of non-local NDRs in what I can only presume to be an effort to win other theists over to your position. While that tack is certainly yours to follow, it’s not without risk. For instance, if a skeptic’s atheism is topically relevant, then I think it’s only fair to note that most New Agers wouldn’t have any problem whatsoever endorsing most of your position.

 

[cornbread_r2]

…]

Pim van lomnel is one example who was a materialist atheist before his peer reviewed lancet study and is no longer one .

…]

Just because someone changes their opinion on an issue doesn’t mean that they had good or even rational reasons for doing so. Accordingly, see this devastating critique of Lommel’s work by Jason Braithwaite, Senior Lecturer in Cognitive Neuroscience in the Behavioural Brain Sciences Centre at the University of Birmingham. Incidentally, Braithwaite also addresses the criticism you previously leveled at Steve Novella over the issue of hypoxia.

Throughout this thread you’ve made a point of noting the atheistic views of the skeptics of non-local NDRs in what I can only presume to be an effort to win other theists over to your position. While that tack is certainly yours to follow, it’s not without risk. For instance, if a skeptic’s atheism is topically relevant, then I think it’s only fair to note that most New Agers wouldn’t have any problem whatsoever endorsing most of your position.

 

[spedteacherita]

It’s also important to point out that neurology has been able to duplicate many NDE’s phenomena (i.e. the sense of floating out and above one’s body for example) by stimulating certain areas of the brain.

So it could be that many a NDE is due to what is happening to the brain as oppose to what is happening to the soul…

We should not bury our heads in the sand on the science side of it…after all, we are Catholic, and we believe in ethical science.

I’ve heard this also and it made clear sense until I’ve heard a few of the stories which include seeing their family members in different parts of the hospital and hearing what they said. I’m not saying I totally believe in all this stuff but it does tug at my scientific/theological mind…

Thanks for your post!

Rita

 

[spedteacherita]

Hi Rita,

As in all things , we can be good at observation but faulty with conclusions (and sometimes just faulty with observation.) Visions can also be demonic, as well as from the Father.

As an example, many folks talk of the light, and the wonderful feeling they get from that light and that maybe a good observation . Now for the conclusion, many will then say ,“nothing to fear upon death, it is all positive” . But a few may conclude that indeed the Light is beautiful and exudes goodness, and warmth, and much desired to be with. But the final judgement has not happened yet .The person returns back to his body. Their conclusion is that you definitely do not want to be turned away from such a Wonder, and that it would be horrible to be separated form such "love and warmth ", a hell in itself .

Two different conclusions of the same observed experience .We need to be looking for the “rest of the story”, to make the complete picture. As Christians , we certainly have heard from that very Light, even have a down payment of that Light in us, and hopefully with a portion of that peace to fully come, that surpasses all.

Blessings

Thanks, Ben!

 

[edwest2]

An Out of Body experience is not a Near Death Experience. Let me relate a conversation I had with a relative

R: “You know, anybody who thinks Heaven isn’t real is in for a rude awakening.”

Me: What happened?

R: “It was like being in a giant room filled with people and a light in the distance.”

Me: What were the people doing?

R: “It was like being at a wedding. People were talking. You know.”

Me: What else did you see?

R: “I felt being drawn to the light but something prevented me from going there. Then, it was over.”

He insisted it was not a dream. He died a few days later.

Ed

 

[humble_catholic]

Just because someone changes their opinion on an issue doesn’t mean that they had good or even rational reasons for doing so. Accordingly, see this devastating critique of Lommel’s work by Jason Braithwaite, Senior Lecturer in Cognitive Neuroscience in the Behavioural Brain Sciences Centre at the University of Birmingham. Incidentally, Braithwaite also addresses the criticism you previously leveled at Steve Novella over the issue of hypoxia.

Throughout this thread you’ve made a point of noting the atheistic views of the skeptics of non-local NDRs in what I can only presume to be an effort to win other theists over to your position. While that tack is certainly yours to follow, it’s not without risk. For instance, if a skeptic’s atheism is topically relevant, then I think it’s only fair to note that most New Agers wouldn’t have any problem whatsoever endorsing most of your position.

Cornbread the problem with your claim that new agers will support my claim because of bias is erroneous and fir many reasons . One reason is that many of these new agers weren’t new agers before their research. They were in fact hardlined materialists and atheists . Lommel is an example of this as he himself even admitted to believing this.

Second I saw no such devastating rebuttal to pommels research except for lomnel it directly reporting oxygen levels in the brain but as lomnel himself said there are many indirect ways to know this as an experienced cardiologist .

The dying brain hypothesis of Jason is dead for many reasons , especially since 2013 when they placed electrodes in the dying brain of rays and even saw this in humans that there was a deep brain surge after cardiac arrest ,but it lasted no longer then 30seconds, but after this there wasn’t any electrical activity at all , deep brain or eeg recorded .

If you had checked the aware study we have a patient having acetiducal bde for at least a full 3 minutes after his cardiac arrest which devastated Jason’s opinion piece.

Jason never tackles the veridical aspects of the Nde experience because he is desperate to had on to his old paradigm

Corn bread there is a reason why a huge majority of Nde scientists are not atheists , and that’s because the evidence lead them out of atheism .

Now instead of giving me opinion piece from non Nde experts who atenitpicking research
How about giving me research that actually favors your view .

Are there any cornbread

 

[humble_catholic]

The reason why atheists are so frightened to deal with veridical ndes

telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11144442/First-hint-of-life-after-death-in-biggest-ever-scientific-study.html

One man even recalled leaving his body entirely and watching his resuscitation from the corner of the room.

Despite being unconscious and ‘dead’ for three minutes, the 57-year-old social worker from Southampton, recounted the actions of the nursing staff in detail and described the sound of the machines.

We know the brain can’t function when the heart has stopped beating,” said Dr Sam Parnia, a former research fellow at Southampton University, now at the State University of New York, who led the study.

“But in this case, conscious awareness appears to have continued for up to three minutes into the period when the heart wasn’t beating, even though the brain typically shuts down within 20-30 seconds after the heart has stopped.

“The man described everything that had happened in the room, but importantly, he heard two bleeps from a machine that makes a noise at three minute intervals. So we could time how long the experienced lasted for.

“He seemed very credible and everything that he said had happened to him had actually happened.”

Many people have assumed that these were hallucinations or illusions but they do seem to corresponded to actual events.

You see cornbread this study was performed under strict protocols .

Now please tell me that Parnia who field of expertise is Nde and resuscitation is wrong when he asserts that we know that the brain can’t function 30 seconds after cardiac arrest , yet a man repeats clear and accurate objectively verifiable info for at least 3 minutes after his cardiac arrest .

Look cornbread if you feel uncomfortable accepting the facts here it’s ok
Just ignore veridical ndes and focus on the more vague evidences so that your more comfortable with your atheistic views .

We all have our faiths , nothing wrong with that

 

[cornbread_r2]

The reason why atheists are so frightened to deal with veridical ndes

telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11144442/First-hint-of-life-after-death-in-biggest-ever-scientific-study.html

…]

As luck would have it, your arch-nemesis, Steve Novella, has written a critique of Parnia’s study. Cheers.

Look cornbread if you feel uncomfortable accepting the facts here it’s ok Just ignore veridical ndes and focus on the more vague evidences so that your more comfortable with your atheistic views .

We all have our faiths , nothing wrong with that

I don’t recall ever sharing any of the details of my religious views with you, so how you could possibly speculate about my comfort level about anything is truly beyond me. In any case, your snarky little jab once again highlights a fundamental error that you’ve been flogging since the thread began – that atheists have an insurmountable prejudice against non-local NDEs and that confirmation of non-local NDEs necessarily threatens the worldviews of atheists. Toward knocking down those simplistic notions, see this article by neuroscientist Sam Harris who, along with Dawkins, Hitchens and Dennett made up the so-called Four Horsemen of New Atheism. From the article:

As many of you know, I am interested in “spiritual” experiences of the sort Alexander reports. Unlike many atheists, I don’t doubt the subjective phenomena themselves—that is, I don’t believe that everyone who claims to have seen an angel, or left his body in a trance, or become one with the universe, is lying or mentally ill. Indeed, I have had similar experiences myself in meditation, in lucid dreams (even while meditating in a lucid dream), and through the use of various psychedelics (in times gone by). I know that astonishing changes in the contents of consciousness are possible and can be psychologically transformative.

And, unlike many neuroscientists and philosophers, I remain agnostic on the question of how consciousness is related to the physical world. There are, of course, very good reasons to believe that it is an emergent property of brain activity, just as the rest of the human mind obviously is. But we know nothing about how such a miracle of emergence might occur. And if consciousness were, in fact, irreducible—or even separable from the brain in a way that would give comfort to Saint Augustine—my worldview would not be overturned. I know that we do not understand consciousness, and nothing that I think I know about the cosmos, or about the patent falsity of most religious beliefs, requires that I deny this. So, although I am an atheist who can be expected to be unforgiving of religious dogma, I am not reflexively hostile to claims of the sort Alexander has made. In principle, my mind is open. (It really is.)

 

[benhur]

Thanks, Ben!

Your welcome rita .and thank you !

Blessings