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Lekatt
Guest
I am happy for you, and wish you many years of good health. Yes, it is beautiful in the light, love, caring and acceptance, plus great knowledge is found abundately.
Love
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Bob_Crowley
Guest
I think they’re real enough. I make the claim that my father appeared in my room the night he died. It wasn’t an NDE since he was dead and stayed dead. Going by the scream just before he disappeared I’m pretty sure he’s in hell.
However about 3 years ago I was arguing with atheists on a Google site. The topic was NDE’s. As usual I was getting nowhere, so I prayed that I might meet someone who’d had an NDE.
About 3 days later I was driving a Maxi Taxi in a suburb called Boondall, when a job came up on the screen for a Maxi at a beachside suburb called Brighton. I procrastinated as I thought there would be a Maxi closer to Brighton as there were nearly always a number of cabs in the Brighton / Sandgate area.
But when it stayed there I went for it. The location was a nursing home called Eventide.
When I got there about 10 minutes later, I found the bloke but he hadn’t wanted a Maxi, but just an ordinary cab. The only reason I got the job was either the radio operator or the radio system had a glitch, and it had been reserved for a Maxi. Had this not been the case I would never have picked him up.
Anyway he wanted to go to the Royal Brisbane Hospital, which is a fair way from Brighton.
Away we went. But we’d only been going a couple of minutes when he said, “I’m one of those rare people.” I asked him what he was talking about, and he replied that he’d been technically dead for ten minutes during an operation. He said he could hear everything that was going on, saw the usual white light, a sense of being told to go back and so on.
He was a Christian (Anglican). During the discussion I found out he’d actually grown up in Brighton. Since he was a year older than me, I asked him if he knew my cousins on my mother’s side, as they grew up on Brighton. He said he did, and he went to the same high school as my eldest cousin in that family. The point is that it was that cousin’s father (my uncle / mother’s brother) who came to tell me my father had died.
Now I had not made any reference to my father’s appartion in my room the night he died, but in a single event I not only met a bloke who’d had an NDE in answer to my prayer, but I had a connection to my own father’s death and appearance in my room in the same incident.
I’ve had a fair number of spiritual experiences and I have no doubt whatsoever that NDE"s are often real, and that there is life after death. I mean, my father turned up in my room the night he died, so I can hardly deny that reality. But there is also a judgement, and it happens immediately after death. It’s pretty quick too - the entire conversation with my father probably took about two minutes in real time. Then he gave this terrifying scream while trying to ward something off and disappeared.
As far as I’m concerned the number of conincidences that came together in the Brighton Maxi booking were in fact subtle maneuvres - the prayer answered within a couple of days, the job reserved for me so I could meet a bloke who’d had an NDE, the fact he had a sort of relationship to my own father’s death, in a city of well over a million people.
It was more than coincidence.
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Gloria1
Guest
I believe in some near death experiences. In my opinion, our minds are limited and many things are hidden from us. However, once your mind becomes one with an eternal mind, you begin seeing many things. At near death, the mind prepares to join an eternal mind and we begin seeing many things.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
Bob, do you think that your father being in Hell would be consistent with his life? I know that’s a personal question; you can answer broadly and safely if you care to answer at all.
It would really upset me to think/worry that someone I respected and/or loved would be in Hell, and have a vision/dread of that at death…
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Bob_Crowley
Guest
Yes, it would be consistent with his life, particularly the way he treated his own family. He was cruel, vindictive and very bad tempered. I got to the stage where I hated him. When he appeared on that night he started with an apology. He wasn’t sent to apologise for no reason.Bob, do you think that your father being in Hell would be consistent with his life? I know that’s a personal question; you can answer broadly and safely if you care to answer at all.
It would really upset me to think/worry that someone I respected and/or loved would be in Hell, and have a vision/dread of that at death…
As Mary pointed out in the first “secret” at Fatima, which was a description of hell, “that is the fate of all poor sinners”.
I’m more concerned for my mother and sister, who have both died since then. I suspect they’re both in Purgatory. At least I hope so.
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Listener
Guest
I have read about near death experiences in books where people thought they were in hell, and were then transported toward a loving light and given a second chance. If your father apologized during this apparition, I think he is more likely in Purgatory. It would be a good idea to pray for him.
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Bob_Crowley
Guest
I don’t want to keep harping on this, although I’ve mentioned it a number of times. My main reason for the incident was to point out the request to meet someone who’d had an NDE was granted, despite the free will choices of all passengers, radio operators and myself on that day, which somehow God was still able to work around or with.
And of course there was the peculiar connection with my own father’s death. Actually that was the second time I’ve had a “coincidence” regarding his appearing in my room.
As for Purgatory, you didn’t see the scream. I can understand Purgatory being a place of refining fire, but whatever it was that he saw coming for him terrified him to the absolute core. I started to scream just looking at him, as the fear was so contagious. And I couldn’t even see what it was that he could.
I think he’s in hell personally. I once had a vison where somebody appeared and said, “I’ve had enough of him. He’s doomed! He’s only got about five years to live! You’ll tell him too. It might have been better if you didn’t, since he’ll only get worse.”
A couple of days later we had another argument and I blurted out the bit about the vision. Surprisingly he broke down, when i thought he would have laughed at it.
Anyway that would have been around 1974, since I left home late that year and moved to Perth for a few years.
But sure enough he died in January 1979, about five years later.
The point is that I prayed to meet someone who’d had an NDE, and within two or three days I did so, I’ve had enough spritual experiences now that not much surprises me in the spiritual realm, even though I don’t like God much sometimes. But one thing that does get me is how He can bring about something like that when all along the line our free choices are involved. I had to “decide” to be close enough at the time to get the job; I had to choose to go for the job; my preceding passengers had to so direct my path that day so that I was there at that time; the NDE chap had to make his call at the right time; he had to choose to make a long trip so we had sufficient time to talk; he needed to mention he grew up in Brighton for me to ask if he knew my cousin; the radio operator had to make a glitch etc. etc. Now that is a mystery! What price free will versus predestination?
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Elizabeth502
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Bob, a couple of things:
(1) Bolded phrase #1: At least one poster said earlier, perhaps on Page One, that we have to be careful in (I’ll paraphrase) ‘the discernment of spirits.’ That same poster might have the same one that said there are bad spirits masquerading as good ones. For example, if your father was beset with his own personal “demons” (of anger, of bitterness, etc.), then in a way, The Demon par excellence had a stranglehold on him, or was waging a battle – particularly at the moment of death, which is an opportune moment for The Devil to try to regain control at the last possible moment of choice, and when a ‘tortured’ soul is wrestling with an encounter with His Maker.
Our unconscious knowledge of God is deep, and permeates more of our existence than many people realize, especially people who believe they’ve not only rejected God, but ejected him – from their life, from any relationship with him in any realm of existence.
I definitely believe that God sends us warnings. I think our personal angels do, too, and we all have personal angels (guardians, plural, or a guardian). If your father was given a terrifying vision of Hell which caused him to scream but then gave him a second chance, then that was a gift from the God of Mercy. Perhaps secondarily this was a profound message to you, the son, to pray for your father on the chance that he may be consigned to Purgatory. And that would simultaneously be a healing opportunity for you, to forgive him fully. You do not know for sure that your father is in Hell, unless you’ve been given a private definitive revelation on this fact specifically which you have not yet shared with us.
Just as likely a scenario, i.m.o., is that your father was experiencing an epic battle within his soul at the moment of death, between Good and Evil. There are priests who have been around an awful lot of dying people (naturally), and some of these priests do occasionally report what appears to be a battle between a tortured soul regretting his or her (particularly bad) life, and the attempt of that soul to extricate himself or make a different decision. Some of these priests also report hearing the person scream in horror at a ‘vision’ or appearance of something. There are also non-NDE incidents reported by priests of troubled souls who were possessed momentarily, and the possession caused those people to scream wildly in horror and even run naked in terror, trying to extricate themselves from being in the grip of such evil.
It seems to me that we have to be very careful about how precisely we can interpret these shadow experiences, both directly experienced, and reported by others.
(2) Bolded part #2: Are you saying that you think that Free Will and God’s Foreknowledge are not compatible with each other? Foreknowledge is not Predestination of course. In terms of our ultimate spiritual end, God does not consign or “send” anyone to Hell, in that he creates a being specifically to control the spiritual journey of that soul. That’s heresy, in Catholic theology. The fact that God is not bound by time in any serial manner the way we are just means that he sees ahead, all in one, where we begin our journey, which decisions we make with our own free will, and where we ultimately choose to spend our afterlife. He doesn’t cause any of those good or bad decisions to be made by us (A withholding of free will.) God is not the Cause of our decisions, He is the Cause of our being. Two different things. Similarly, he doesn’t restrain us from messing up royally if we choose to resist all the angels and human helping hands he sends to us throughout our lives. Being Goodness itself, He provides us with opportunity to order our own lives toward the Good, but doesn’t prevent us from choosing Evil. Otherwise, it wouldn’t make sense to make an effort to have a relationship with Him over which we supposedly didn’t have ultimate control. A concept of a mechanistic God is an invitation to despair and is contradictory to the entire body of Catholic theology.
My father used to have visions of The Devil. I do not believe that he had so at the moment of death (which was the middle of the night; none of us were at his bedside), but he had these visions on more than one occasion while we all lived at home. He would have very bad nightmares of the devil chasing him; he would wake up screaming in horror. During the last part of his life, when he was very ill, I was at his bedside most days, and he was at peace and very comforted by my presence. I do not believe that my father is in Hell; I am quite sure he is in Purgatory. Perhaps those earlier visions were warning signs to him; perhaps they were indicative of something else.
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Lekatt
Guest
I am troubled when I hear of those so frightened of demons or devils. The very few near death experiencers that saw these things or were attacked by them call out for help from God or Jesus and that help was immediately given. They were carried into the light and love of our forgiving God. If you keep your focus on God’s love for you fear will vanish.
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Elizabeth502
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Great response. And I agree.
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Bob_Crowley
Guest
I’m not that worried by demons et al. although it would be a different matter if I were to fall into their hands. I’m not that worried by the fact that there are humans who are prepared to torture other people, although it would be a different matter if I were to fall into their hands.
I’d better point out that at the time my father died I was an atheist, and secondly, the whole thing took me by surprise. I was hardly expecting it. As it was I wasn’t told about his death by ordinary human methods for another four days, for the simple reason his body wasn’t found for four days. The uncle I mentioned turned up, and when the penny dropped, I still remember standing there and thinking “Then what the hell was that the other night??”
But being an atheist, my next thought was, “Nah, it couldn’t have happened.** I don’t believe in those sorts of things!**” As Christ said, “As a man thinks, so he is.” That’s why it’s almost futile to change an atheist’s thinking by appeal to these sorts of things. If it didn’t change my mind even when it happened to me (I didn’t become Christian for nearly four more years), then I can hardly expect it’s going to make much difference when merely related second hand. This site is a bit different - most of the participants have a existing faith in the supernatural to begin with.
When I got back to the Google group I’d been debating NDE’s with atheists on, and told them about the fact I’d met this bloke a couple of days after praying for such a meeting, they found every possible reason not to accept it at face value.
And with all due respect, I think most people in the same circumstance would be frightened, especially if they’d witnessed his terror.
I think someone else was right about it being a warning. But there were also some predictions he made which I think will be relevant as time goes by. Some of them have already happened eg. “You’ll meet a pastor. You’ll think he’s great, but all he’ll do is discourage you even more!” Now that was on the night of 11th January 1979.
Sometime in 1991, I sat in the pastor’s office to hear him say, “I owe you an apology. You needed encouragement, and all I’ve done is to discourage you even more!” I’d told him before about my father’s death, and I think he was always worried about where the “apparition” came from. But when I told him about that specific prediction, he blurted out, “You really did see your father that night!”
He apologised and almost quoted my father word for word. Obviously my father could see certain things happening in the future quite clearly from where he was standing. And if he was right, we’re in for a hammering.
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Samson01
Guest
Bob, as Elizabeth said, “discernment of spirits” is a higher gift. I often dream of people who have passed away and have found some not to be what they claim. Be careful with this, pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy for your Father, as it is timeless. I tend to be very cautious now after having been corrected a few times by priest with gifts of discernment. Peace follows a correct interuptation at times. No doubt you saw something that night and think is was your Father, so continue to pray…Peace.
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Lekatt
Guest
I grew up in Protestant churches and know very little about Catholics. I became an agnostic until my near death experience which changed my life forever. I have written a little post about how all this happened if any one would care to read it.
aleroy.com/blog/archives/565
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aleroy.com/blog/archives/565
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Samson01
Guest
A priest helping in discernment may caution a person not to become too elated…some may even say it is a hinderence to spiritual growth to linger on experience’s. St. John OTC comes to mind in this. I’m sure others can add to this, but I talked to many types of people about NDE’s and other experience’s. We all have our own cross given to us as seem fit and I haven’t found any answers to what is unkown about this subject. I am content in leaving it at that. Whether my experience was a drug induced twilight of death, the start of a one way ticket to hell or the begining of a journey, I don’t know for sure. All I can ask myself now is, are you doing better now, is it the best you can do? Sadly the answer is no. I’m not doing the best I can do. So the whole experience is still a source of pain.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
Good warning. In the reading I have done, I have noticed that often the NDE becomes the entire distracting focus of the person’s life in the here and now, following the event. I could see that might create all kinds of problems: For one thing, it could distract us from the present moment (theologically, we are told that our relationship with God is always in the present) – and thus difficulty with hearing and receiving what we need right now to complete the very work that supposedly the NDE anticipates, projects, etc. Two, it could create false expectations and unreasonable standards for the individual experiencing this. That in itself could lead to discouragement and even tempt one to despair (in extreme cases), such as what you may be implying here:
We need to remember that God only expects our ultimate best with the opportunities, tools, abilities he gives us – from birth and as our life progresses. Perhaps there have been people who have become saint-like due to NDE’s, but we also don’t know what the predispositions of those people were before the NDE. Humility (I’m speaking to myself more than you!) requires us to be content to maximize those resouces and opportunities that we’re given, rather than seeking to go beyond that. (This is what Therese of Lisieux’s Little Way is all about!)
And for my own part, my reading on NDE’s was of those experiences which were published very soon after the experience. The positive NDE’s tend to be characterized by elation and possibly some lack of realism about the long-term influence of these in these authors’ daily lives. The most common thread, and the one that seemed to have the most longevity (by those who published long after the experience), was greater peace and equanimity about the future, and much better perspective on The Big Picture vs. the Petty. It doesn’t mean that such perspective always results in checking one’s evil impulses and resisting sinful temptations, but perhaps for some people it helps to reduce overreaction and false anxiety – both of which can lead to sinful behavior.
My own reading, and some of these posts, have helped me to think about this all in the light of Personal Judgment and in contrast to PJ, as it is my theory that often these are inappropriately equated or combined. Ultimately, we do not know the details of how anyone’s PJ will unfold (although we’re told it will be brief); nor can we discern the precise interpretation and import of even one’s own NDE (possibly), let alone the NDE’s of others. You’ve helped me to put some of this in perspective, just by the little you’ve said here, Samson, so I thank you. Peace. Try not to be hard on yourself. God knows how often I have not taken full advantage of profound grace opportunities.
What does OTC refer to?
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Samson01
Guest
St. John of The Cross. Dark Night…St. Theresa of Avila spoke of much the same way. These NDE’s can be a type of consolation of sorts and when/if that person ever experience’s a lack of consolatons/ dark night, it could be tough to move on in constant reflection. And as you pointed out, time and other factors may skew the single interuptation. This is all serious buisness and takes much discernment, but most importantly the discernment to be at peace with it and move on. I kind of look at some consolations as a saftey net of sorts. Picking out the fundamentals like, there is a God who loves, He saves in mercy, There is a hell, but God calls us all to be saints…At the end of the day, nothing else matters unless otherwise told something in direction from a trusted SD.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
Ah yes, St. John of the Cross. Can’t disagree with any of this post, either. But perhaps the most important take-away that you’ve just mentioned is the need for a Spiritual Director for anything so powerful that it can’t be assimilated into one’s life on one’s own.
Any kind of mystical experience is not an end in itself, or a reason to change our gaze away from the fundamentals you just mentioned. (We should all remember the gospel episode in which, according to one of the accounts, Peter wanted to rest indefinitely – “set up tents”-- with the transfigured Jesus, and what happened after that.)
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dusza
Guest
“The Day I Died” is a good documentary about NDE’s:
youtube.com/watch?v=w6lXx86fm6A&feature=related
There’s also one called “Life After Life” by Raymond Moody.
I would caution the viewer against searching through many other “testimonies” on youtube. I found many of them to be disturbing to a point where I think the devil is making use of them. He would love nothing more than to de-emphasize Christ and our need of Him to reach heaven.
Besides, St. Faustina’s experiences are far more fascinating than any NDE.
youtube.com/watch?v=w6lXx86fm6A&feature=related
There’s also one called “Life After Life” by Raymond Moody.
I would caution the viewer against searching through many other “testimonies” on youtube. I found many of them to be disturbing to a point where I think the devil is making use of them. He would love nothing more than to de-emphasize Christ and our need of Him to reach heaven.
Besides, St. Faustina’s experiences are far more fascinating than any NDE.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
Dusza, I took the liberty of bolding this last line especially. I’m in agreement with the rest of the post as well. (And I think I’ve read Moody.) I also think the warning about the Devil is not an exaggeration. Again, priests have more experience with this than the average lay person, and thus priests often counsel an abundance of caution in jumping to amateur interpretations.
When our awareness is more heightened in regular old life, it’s apparent that plenty of Life Experiences are also paths of grace and light if we take the time to reflect on the many messages, warnings, and comforts that God is trying to communicate to us every day, in our regular routines. Being less “dramatic” does not make them any less real. We can pray for an increase in awareness & daily “vision,” instead of hoping for something exotic. (Not directed to anyone on this thread!
)But back to Faustyna: Let’s all remember that All Souls is coming up. An excellent opportunity to rekindle this devotion on behalf of the Poor Souls still in Purgatory.
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Listener
Guest
I read a book called “Into the Light” by John Lerma. The author is a hospice doctor. Each chapter is about a different dying person. This book does not describe “near death” experiences. Rather, it describes pre-death experiences of people who have actually died.
If this book is accurate, then the mercy of God is truly amazing. The author describes a few lifelong atheists who are dying and still call themselves atheists, most of whom led reasonably good lives. When they are close to death, they see visions of angels, and all of a sudden they become believers and die in peace.
If this book is accurate, then the mercy of God is truly amazing. The author describes a few lifelong atheists who are dying and still call themselves atheists, most of whom led reasonably good lives. When they are close to death, they see visions of angels, and all of a sudden they become believers and die in peace.
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