Necessary for all to learn from the Popes

[dcdurel]

The biggest fault of orthodox Catholics today is their failure to study the basic teachings of the recent Popes, especially since Vatican II.

By basic teachings I mean especially the meaning of basic ideas suchs as “salvation” and “Gospel.”

Why do we need to study what the Popes teach? Because we have easily been misled by experts, who themselves have not learned these basic terms from the Popes.

For example, by “salvation” we usually think it means primarily eternal salvation. We hear Protestants believe in the heresey of “salvation by faith alone”, in the sense of eternal salvation by faith alone. Thus the understanding that salvation is primarily eternal. Or we hear Catholics teach that Jesus died for our salvation, so that we can be reconciled with God and when we die we can go to heaven. We learn that salvation starts with baptism, when we receive the grace that removes original sin, makes us children of God, makes us holy and righteous, etc, so that when we die we can go to heaven and attain eternal salvation. All these definitions of the Church are correct. But again the emphasis is on eternal salvation.

But, look what the Popes teach as the primary meaning of salvation.

                                       "As the kernel and center of His Good News, Christ proclaims salvation, this great gift of God which is liberation from everything that oppresses man but which is above all liberation from sin and the Evil One, in the joy of knowing God and being known by Him, of seeing Him, and of being given over to Him."

Evangelium nuntiandi
Pope Paul VI
He then goes on to teach that this salvation extends after death into the next life as eternal salvation. But, the primary emphasis starts with liberation in this life.

Pope John Paul II continues this understanding.

“The subject of proclamation is Christ who was crucified, died and is risen: through him is accomplished our full and authentic liberation from evil, sin and death; through him God bestows “new life” that is divine and eternal. This is the “Good News” which changes man and his history, and which all peoples have a right to hear.”
Mission of the Redeemer
Pope John Paul II

 

[dcdurel]

continued.

“Christ has redeemed us! This means that he has given us the possibility of realizing the entire truth of our being; he has set our freedom free from the domination of concupiscence. And if redeemed man still sins, this is not due to an imperfection of Christ’s redemptive act, but to man’s will not to avail himself of the grace which flows from that act.”
Veritatis splendor
Pope John Paul II

                                       Before the Redemption, mankind was enslaved by sin, inclined to dominate rather than serve, living for self and not for others. But by the mystery of his Cross and Resurrection, we have been given the freedom and grace to live no longer for ourselves but for him. What a wonderful gift from Christ, our Saviour!

It was precisely for this reason that Christ died for all of us, to liberate us from the bond of selfishness from which by ourselves we could never escape, to make us free, and to enable us to live for him. This is the gift which Christ won for all of us: clergy, religious, laity.
**Address of Pope John Paul II **
to Clergy, Religious People and Laity
Cathedral of Port Moresby (Papua New Guinea)
Tuesday, 8 May 1984

It is in the saving Cross of Jesus, in the gift of the Holy Spirit, in the Sacraments which flow forth from the pierced side of the Redeemer (cf. Jn 19:34), that believers find the grace and the strength always to keep God’s holy law, even amid the gravest of hardships.
Veritatis splendor
Pope John Paul II

I could go on and on. But the emphasis by the Church is that salvation is first and primary liberation from the inclination to sin that starts in this life, and it is through the sacraments, which we receive through faith, that the grace is made available to free us from this slavery, this inclination, this tendency to sin. Thus the primary reason Jesus died was to free us from this inclination, this tendency, from almost a compulsion to sin.

This is totally different from the usual explanation we get from Catholic scholars and experts, even the best ones.

It is this understanding of salvation the the Popes offer to the secular world as one of the primary reasons to believe and follow Jesus.
If we continue to think of salvation as primarily eternal salvation, then we cannot understand the teachings of Pope Paul VI, Pope John Paul II and the present Pope.
The secular world scarcely believes in God and thus has no reason to worry about eternal salvation. But the secular world is heavily into sin, whether it is lust, greed, selfishness, drugs, abortion, hatred, suicide, murder, alcoholism, and on and on. Through the Church, the Popes teach, Jesus offers the grace to those enslaved by the sins of this world to be freed from these things that bind them and make them unhappy. Even those secularists with lots of money are unhapply in this world.
The idea that Jesus came to liberate us from the sins of this world that enslave us IS something which will appeal to SOME of those in this world who want to be freed.
But, if we just go along with the old definition that salvation means primarily “going to heaven”, then there is no appeal to those who are enslaved by sin.

All the writings of Pope Paul VI, and John Paul II on evangelization start off with their correct understanding of salvation. We will not understand their other writings correctly until change our understanding so that it is in conformity with what they teach, which is what the Church teaches.
We cannot be lazy and accept the old incomplete definitions of salvation given by the current Catholic scholars today and even the old Baltimore Catechism. We MUST conform our ideas with the teachings of the Popes. We must study what the Popes write on the fundamentals of the faith, because no one else is doing so.

When I have time I will explain what they mean by
“Gospel” because this is another topic on which 99.9% of Catholics today are totally misled, because we don’t study what the Popes mean by the word Gospel.

 

[thistle]

The teachings of the Church are in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, approved and signed off by John Paul II.
Is there anything in the CCC that you disagree with?

 

[dcdurel]

The teachings of the Church are in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, approved and signed off by John Paul II.
Is there anything in the CCC that you disagree with?

There are two part of the Gospel message.
The first part is the inital proclamation.
The second part is catechesis.

The CCC is a statement of what the Church believes and it is a sure norm for catechesis. The CCC does NOT present and teach clearly the initial proclamation. The CCC assumes we know the intial proclamation already.

Pope Paul VI in his Evangelium nuntiandi and Pope JP II in his writings and in the General Directory for Catechesis which he authorized, make it clear that Catechesis is only the second part of receiving the Gospel. The CCC assumes that the initial proclamation is already known and understood .

Let me state it another way.

The CCC itself teaches that the Gospel that the apostles learned from Jesus and which they preached, ( handed down in Tradition) to their successors, the bishops, is the source of ALL SAVING TRUTH AND MORAL DISCIPLINE.
Notice, not scripture, but the Gospel handed down in Tradition is the source of all saving truth. Pope JPII in addition says that this Gospel that the apostles preached also contains: “the fullness of the truth which God has enabled us to know about himself.”

We know this Gospel is spread by words and example.

We all know what example means.

But, in the process of using words to spread this Gospel Pope Paul VI says there are two parts, the initial proclamation and then catechesis.

The intial proclamation is tells who Jesus is, why He became man, etc.

Catechesis is for those who have heard the initial proclamatin and then have decided they want to learn more and perhaps become Catholic. Catechesis teaches all the Church believes. BUT, it is based on the assumption the person already knows the initial proclamation. The Catechism does NOT teach the initial proclamation. It is in there, but it is not clearly taught.

Pope Paul VI and Pope JP II in their encyclicals continue to explain what Vatican II intented to do, and that is to explain to the world what Jesus offers mankind, why He became man and why the world needs Jesus and His Church today.

 The CCC assumes a person already knows these basic truths and wants to learn more.

Obviously, from the number of times Pope JP II had to repeat these truths of the initial proclamation, especially salvation, he thought we did not understand them. He is correct.
The intial proclamation can be found in Pope Paul VI’s encyclical **Evangelium nuntiandi.
**As far as I know this is the only place we can learn it.
In this initial proclamation there is a lot, but the Pope says that salvation is the center and kernel of the Gospel. By salvation he means **this great gift of God which is liberation from everything that oppresses man but which is above all liberation from sin and the Evil One, in the joy of knowing God and being known by Him, of seeing Him, and of being given over to Him." **
So, when we tell someone about the Catholic faith, the most important part, the central part the kernel of the good news, is that in Jesus, God created us and the world and out of love for us sent His Son Jesus to liberate us from everything that oppresses us, but especially to liberate us from the slavery of sin.
Pope John Paul II also starts off with Jesus and why we need Him, in His first two encyclicals, but again he often comes back to the center of the Gospel message.
The center of the Gospel message is that Jesus came to free man from everything that oppresses him, but especially from the evil of sin. Read my second post again. And the Pope has a lot more than the few quotes I gave.

 

[dcdurel]

continued:

This idea of liberation from the slavery of sin out of love for us, is the center of the whole Gospel.

The CCC presents only part of the Gospel message. The CCC presents the catechesis part. It assumes we know clearly the initial proclamation, in which we learn that Jesus came to free us from the slavery of sin.
The General Directory for Catechesis goes into more detail about this Gospel message. It has some on the initial proclamation then it has more on the basics of catechesis, and more on how all this is transmitted from one generation to the next.
But, it again makes clear there are two parts in the ministry of the word. The initial proclamation, and then Catechesis.

Thus, if we just start with Catechesis, with the CCC, we are missing the initial proclamation. We are missing the center of Catechesis. We are missing the correct understanding of why Jesus founded His church. We don’t understand correctly why Jesus became man, suffered and died. We are missing the primary part of what salvation means, which is liberation from evil and from the slavery of sin.

In other words, we cannot even understand the central point of the Catechism of the Catholic Church correctly, unless we KNOW, what Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II have been teaching.
Unless we know what they have been teaching we will have the old incorrect idea of salvation, which only focuses on final salvation or eternal salvation. While the correct understanding of salvation is in the CCC, we will pass over it and not understand it, and thus it won’t do us much good.
We can’t evangelize correctly if we don’t clearly understand the central point of the whole Gospel, which is salvation, (liberation from the slavery of sin) and show how the entire Catholic faith is directed toward that end. We have to show how salvation history, as outlined in the creed are directed toward that end, and of how the sacraments, espcially the Eucharist were instituted toward that end and how the commandments and prayer are instituted toward that end, and how the Rosary, fasting, and everything we do as Catholics are directed toward that end.

The CCC has so much, it is impossible to learn the basics, such as what the primary meaning of salvation is and what the Gospel is. Only the Popes can clear this up and teach us the basics, and from then we can begin to understand the CCC and the whole Catholic faith.

Thus I repeat again. We all need to study and learn these encyclicals so that we can learn the CCC and learn the basics of the whole Catholic faith.
The Popes wrote these encycicals for a reason. The reason is that we don’t understand the basics.
We don’t easily understand these encyclicals because we don’t understand the basics.
These encyclicals are NOT deep stuff. They are the basics. The reason we don’t easily understand them is because we don’t understand the basics.

We don’t understand the primary meaning of salvation. We don’t understand the meaning of the word Gospel.

By Gospel the Church means the whole Catholic faith, centered on the good news of salvation, or liberation from everything that oppresses us.

Only the Popes teach all this correctly. We cannot learn this by reading theologians or scripture scholars. Not even the best.

 

[thistle]

continued:

This idea of liberation from the slavery of sin out of love for us, is the center of the whole Gospel.

The CCC presents only part of the Gospel message. The CCC presents the catechesis part. It assumes we know clearly the initial proclamation, in which we learn that Jesus came to free us from the slavery of sin.
The General Directory for Catechesis goes into more detail about this Gospel message. It has some on the initial proclamation then it has more on the basics of catechesis, and more on how all this is transmitted from one generation to the next.
But, it again makes clear there are two parts in the ministry of the word. The initial proclamation, and then Catechesis.

Thus, if we just start with Catechesis, with the CCC, we are missing the initial proclamation. We are missing the center of Catechesis. We are missing the correct understanding of why Jesus founded His church. We don’t understand correctly why Jesus became man, suffered and died. We are missing the primary part of what salvation means, which is liberation from evil and from the slavery of sin.

In other words, we cannot even understand the central point of the Catechism of the Catholic Church correctly, unless we KNOW, what Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II have been teaching.
Unless we know what they have been teaching we will have the old incorrect idea of salvation, which only focuses on final salvation or eternal salvation. While the correct understanding of salvation is in the CCC, we will pass over it and not understand it, and thus it won’t do us much good.
We can’t evangelize correctly if we don’t clearly understand the central point of the whole Gospel, which is salvation, (liberation from the slavery of sin) and show how the entire Catholic faith is directed toward that end. We have to show how salvation history, as outlined in the creed are directed toward that end, and of how the sacraments, espcially the Eucharist were instituted toward that end and how the commandments and prayer are instituted toward that end, and how the Rosary, fasting, and everything we do as Catholics are directed toward that end.

The CCC has so much, it is impossible to learn the basics, such as what the primary meaning of salvation is and what the Gospel is. Only the Popes can clear this up and teach us the basics, and from then we can begin to understand the CCC and the whole Catholic faith.

Thus I repeat again. We all need to study and learn these encyclicals so that we can learn the CCC and learn the basics of the whole Catholic faith.
The Popes wrote these encycicals for a reason. The reason is that we don’t understand the basics.
We don’t easily understand these encyclicals because we don’t understand the basics.
These encyclicals are NOT deep stuff. They are the basics. The reason we don’t easily understand them is because we don’t understand the basics.

We don’t understand the primary meaning of salvation. We don’t understand the meaning of the word Gospel.

By Gospel the Church means the whole Catholic faith, centered on the good news of salvation, or liberation from everything that oppresses us.

Only the Popes teach all this correctly. We cannot learn this by reading theologians or scripture scholars. Not even the best.

I don’t know what to say! You know better than all the best theological minds of the past 2000 years. Simply amazing. Who revealed to you that only the Popes and you know the truth??

 

[Corki]

There are two part of the Gospel message.
The first part is the inital proclamation.
The second part is catechesis.

The CCC is a statement of what the Church believes and it is a sure norm for catechesis. The CCC does NOT present and teach clearly the initial proclamation. The CCC assumes we know the intial proclamation already.

The CCC assumes that the initial proclamation is already known and understood.

Catechesis is for those who have heard the initial proclamatin and then have decided they want to learn more and perhaps become Catholic. Catechesis teaches all the Church believes. BUT, it is based on the assumption the person already knows the initial proclamation. The Catechism does NOT teach the initial proclamation. It is in there, but it is not clearly taught.

 The CCC assumes a person already knows these basic truths and wants to learn more.

I have to disagree with your analysis, although not your premise. The CCC does not assume that we are already familiar with the direct teaching of the Popes. I agree that the CCC does assume that the user is familiar with the basics, including terminology. The CCC already contains the central teaching points from the Popes and Church fathers. I think it is the other way around from what you have said. The CCC is the starting point and the encyclicals, patristic writings etc. are where you go if you want “more”. The CCC includes a directive to the Bishops to develop catechisms to effectively teach various groups, including children, inquirers, catechumens and adults seeking to deepen their faith.

The encyclicals and other teachings of the Popes are not “easy reading”. To say that one must be conversant in the encyclicals before one can learn the doctrine, is to make Church teaching accessible only to intellectuals.

Just curious, why the emphasis on the Popes since VII? In apologetics, in my opinion, the untapped treasure of the Church is the writings of the Early Church Fathers and the teachings of the early councils.

 

[dcdurel]

This is in response to the almost universal belief by all Catholics that the Catechism is the starting point for learning about the Catholic faith through the ministry of the word.
I repeat. The Popes teach that it is not. Unless we study what Pope Paul VI, and John Paul II teach about evangelization and proclaiming the Gospel we will not understand the very basics of the Catechism. The Catechism is written with the assumption that we already know the primary proclamation. Pope John Paul II authorized the General Directory for Catechesis, which summarizes what the Popes have been teaching.
I quote:
61. “Primary proclamation is addressed to non-believers and those living in religious indifference. Its functions are to proclaim the Gospel and to call to conversion.Catechesis, “distinct from the primary proclamation of the Gospel”, (182) promotes and matures initial conversion, educates the convert in the faith and incorporates him into the Christian community. The relationship between these two forms of the ministry of the word is, therefore, a relationship of complementary distinction. Primary proclamation, which every Christian is called to perform, is part of that “Go” (183) which Jesus imposes on his disciples: it implies, therefore, a going-out, a haste, a message. Catechesis, however, starts with the condition indicated by Jesus himself: “whosoever believes”, (184) whosoever converts, whosoever decides. Both activities are essential and mutually complementary: go and welcome, proclaim and educate, call and incorporate.
62. Nevertheless in pastoral practice it is not always easy to define the boundaries of these activities. Frequently, many who present themselves for catechesis truly require genuine conversion. Because of this the Church usually desires that the first stage in the catechetical process be dedicated to ensuring conversion. (185) In the “missio ad gentes”, this task is normally accomplished during the ‘pre-catechumenate’. (186) In the context of “new evangelization” it is effected by means of a “kerygmatic catechesis”, sometimes called “pre-catechesis”, (187) because it is based on the precatechumenate and is proposed by the Gospel and directed towards a solid option of faith. Only by starting with conversion, and therefore by making allowance for the interior disposition of “whoever believes”, can catechesis, strictly speaking, fulfil its proper task of education in the faith.”
from the General Directory for Catechesis.

Notice that the first part
** “Primary proclamation is addressed to non-believers and those living in religious indifference. Its functions are to proclaim the Gospel and to call to conversion. Catechesis, “distinct from the primary proclamation of the Gospel”, (182) promotes and matures initial conversion, educates the convert in the faith and incorporates him into the Christian community.”**

 

[dcdurel]

So Catechesis assumes a person has heard the primary proclamation of the Gospel.

Notice that Catechesis is **“distinct from the primary proclamation of the Gospel”.

**Therefore the primary proclamation of the Gospel must come first. Catechesis does NOT come first.
We can only learn what the Church means by the primarly proclamation of the Gospel by studying what the Popes have been teaching, starting with Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II. Why? B ecause Vatican II was called to re-evangelize the world. Popes Paul VI and John Paul II teach us how to do this. They explain what Vatican II says. We cannot understand Vatican II and the Catechism unless we learn what the Popes teach about all this.
We can only learn what the Church means by “Gospel” by studying how the Church uses the word, going back to the Council of Trent, Pope Piux X, Pope Paul VI, and Pope John Paul II and by carefully studying how the Catechism uses the word. The Catholic Encyclopedia and Catholic writers do NOT give the correct meaning of the word Gospel. The Catholic Encyclopedia says the Gospel is “the written words and deeds of Jesus”. The written words and deeds of Jesus contain only a small part of the Gospel and they assume we already were taught the Gospel. Only through studying how the Popes use the word and how official Church teachings use the word can we understand the meaning of the word Gospel. And Catechesis is only part of transmitting the Gospel.

By conversion the Church does not simply mean to believe that Jesus is God. It means to believe why He became man, it means to believe the kernal and center of the Gospel, which is salvation, it means to learn the Pope’s definition of salvation, NOT just the Baltimore Catechim’s definition, which leaves out the primary meaning.

I gave the Pope’s definitions earlier. Here is the definition of the General Directory for Catechesis, which puts the same meaning in slightly different words.

A message proclaiming salvation
101. The message of Jesus about God is Good News for humanity. Jesus proclaimed the Kingdom of God; (328) a new and definitive intervention by God, with a transforming power equal and even superior to his creation of the world. (329) In this sense, “Christ proclaims salvation as the outstanding element and, as it were, the central point of his Good News. This is the great gift of God which is to be considered as comprising not merely liberation from all those things by which man is oppressed, but especially liberation from sin and from the domination of the evil one, a liberation which incorporates that gladness enjoyed by every man who knows God and is known by him, who sees God and who surrenders himself trustingly to him”. (330) Catechesis transmits this message of the Kingdom, so central to the preaching of Jesus. In doing so, the message “is gradually deepened, developed in its implicit consequences”, (331) and thus manifests its great repercussions for man and the world.

This message of salvation, in the initial proclamation, in the kerygma, as the first part of the Gospel message is essential.

 

[dcdurel]

**Again, Catechesis is only part of the Gospel message. **It assumes we know already know this meaning of salvation as taught by the Popes. Salvation is the central part of the Gospel message. Salvation is not simply that Jesus opened the gates of heaven as the Baltimore Catechism teaches, but it is much more. It is not just that Jesus atoned for our sins. It is not just that we become children of God, with the right to heaven. It is much more, it is liberation from everything that oppresses us, especially liberation from sin. The General Directory for Catechesis teaches more about all this. The Popes have been trying to teach about this liberation over and over and over. They have been trying to explain that we are liberated from by the grace which Jesus merited by His death and resurrection. This grace liberates us by taking away the inclination to sin and increasing our love of God so that we don’t want to sin. By liberating us from sin we can then be in union with God and we are then free to do good which further increases our union with God. We can then transform society.
Catechesis, assumes we know this basic part of the primary proclamation. Catechesis explains how we receive this liberation from sin, through grace of the sacraments, through prayer, through the knowledge of the moral law (the commandments), etc. Pope Pius XII, in Mediator Dei, explains how personal prayer, such as the Rosary, and prayer before and immediately after mass tie in to all this. If we understood what he taught in this encyclical we would pray after mass and not turn the church building into a social gathering place to exchange the latest news.
If we don’t understand this fundamental message that out of love Jesus came to liberate us from the slavery of sin, then we don’t understand the basis for the whole Catholic faith. We won’t understand the Catechism.

This is not my opinion.  Notice the last part of the quotes the General Directory again, regarding the message of liberation from sin.

Catechesis transmits this message of the Kingdom, so central to the preaching of Jesus. In doing so, the message “is gradually deepened, developed in its implicit consequences”, (331) and thus manifests its great repercussions for man and the world.

How can we correctly understand the Catechism if we have the old view of salvation which is expressed by the Baltimore Catechism, as simply that Jesus suffered and died to “open the gates of heaven.” We won’t understand the purpose of the mass properly with this incomplete teaching. We won’t understand the seriousness of sin with this uncomplete teaching, we won’t understand necessity of the commandments, and of the sacraments and personal prayer with this uncomplete teaching.
When we understand that the primary meaning of salvation is liberation from the slavery of sin, by grace, then all parts of the Catholic faith, the Creed, Sacraments, Commandments and prayer all tie together. They make so much more sense. The bible itself, which is salvation history makes sense. How can we understand “salvation history” the bible, if we don’t know what salvation is?
How can we understand what the Church means when she says the mass continues the work of salvation? If salvation means simply that Jesus opened the gates of heaven, they why is the mass necessary since the gates of heaven have already been opened?
But if salvation means to be liberated from the slavery of sin, then it makes sense to say that the mass continues the work of salvation, because the mass makes available the grace of salvation which liberates us from the slavery of sin.

It is only by studying these teachings of the Popes that we can learn the primary proclamation of the Gospel, and the central part of this message which is salvation, liberation from all that oppresses us, especially liberation from sin and the devil. Only then can we properly understand the Catechism.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Not being an apologetics thread, moved to NCR.
MF