F
FredW56
Guest
Never thought they were idol worshippers…
- Status
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rguntner
Guest
Some fundementalist christian groups believe that the statues of Mary and the saints and even the crucifix are considered “graven images” described in the old testament as objects of worship or idols which were forbidden by God in Hebrew law and by the ten commandments… Some so called christian groups even consider the cross itself as a idol. They believe that a church should be devoid of any religious symbols at all so as not to be misconstrued as worshiping “graven images”. I think the church when through similar movements in the past like the Iconoclastic period. (711-843 AD). Although the Church has proven on numerous occasions that this was not idolatry, the belief still festers, like so many other heresies, to the present day.
J
Jerry_Parker
Guest
Guntner,
Of course, since Jesus becam Incarnate, the relation of the physical to the sacred has altered, and holy images, which convey to the faithful what is Holy and sacrally present, even as Christ’s Body conveyed His Presence among men during his earthly ministry, cannot be not idolatrous as intended for the use of Christ’s faithful.
Could you comment on the matter of the invocation of, and prayer to/through the saints, as possibly being “necromatic” in nature? As I mentioned in an earlier posting, I long dreaded such prayers as potential avenues of necromatic communication between the living and the dead, though I “got over” this concerning Mary, Mother of God, whose Assumption (so long ago attested to in Tradition as to abolish all doubts about the matter), assures us of her choice by God Himself to intercede on our behalf, whether we pray to/through her or not. She spiritually is Mother of the Elect, as well as Theotokos. But what about praying to/through other saints? Is there any possible taint of necromancy in this?
Pax, Jerry Parker
**You wrote: ** Some Fundementalist Christian groups believe that the statues of Mary and [of] the saints and even the Crucifix are considered “graven images” described in the Old Testament as objects of worship or [as] idols which were forbidden by God in Hebrew law and by the Ten Commandments. Some so-called Christian groups even consider the Cross itself as a idol. They believe that a church should be devoid of any religious symbols at all so as not to be misconstrued as worshiping “graven images”. I think the Church when through similar movements in the past like the Iconoclastic period. (711-843 AD). Although the Church has proven on numerous occasions that this was not idolatry, the belief still festers, like so many other heresies, to the present day.
You are “up” on such controversies, Guntner! Of course, since Jesus becam Incarnate, the relation of the physical to the sacred has altered, and holy images, which convey to the faithful what is Holy and sacrally present, even as Christ’s Body conveyed His Presence among men during his earthly ministry, cannot be not idolatrous as intended for the use of Christ’s faithful.Could you comment on the matter of the invocation of, and prayer to/through the saints, as possibly being “necromatic” in nature? As I mentioned in an earlier posting, I long dreaded such prayers as potential avenues of necromatic communication between the living and the dead, though I “got over” this concerning Mary, Mother of God, whose Assumption (so long ago attested to in Tradition as to abolish all doubts about the matter), assures us of her choice by God Himself to intercede on our behalf, whether we pray to/through her or not. She spiritually is Mother of the Elect, as well as Theotokos. But what about praying to/through other saints? Is there any possible taint of necromancy in this?
Pax, Jerry Parker
U
Umvard
Guest
I would just like to make a comment about dealing with the problems that come up in conversations between Protestants and Catholics because each side believes they are correct. Catholics (since we are so obviously right
) need to exercise mercy, as in the Spiritual Works of Mercy, by instructing the ignorant and counseling the doubtful and so on and so forth. Because the main issue is that most Protestants do not understand the relationship between the Bible, the Church, God, and the Saints and Mary and need to be instructed. So be merciful and you will be shown mercy.
) need to exercise mercy, as in the Spiritual Works of Mercy, by instructing the ignorant and counseling the doubtful and so on and so forth. Because the main issue is that most Protestants do not understand the relationship between the Bible, the Church, God, and the Saints and Mary and need to be instructed. So be merciful and you will be shown mercy.
R
rguntner
Guest
As stated in prior comments in this thread, the Catholic Church, as I understand its teachings, believes that all who have passed on and who we believe have gone to heaven are still alive in Christ. WE believe that our Church, “the Body of Christ”, is comprised of both the living and the dead. Intercetionary prayer, asking someone to pray for you or for someone else, can be asked of anyone who is a member of the “Body of Christ” whether living or dead. I have no problem with praying to Mary or to the established saints of our Church because there is a pretty good chance they are in heaven. I am reluctant, however, to pray to a dead relative or friend, since I’m not sure if they actually made it to heaven or purgatory. My mother and my brother and sisters, who have all left the Catholic Church to join a Protestant denomination, say that they are “saved” because they accepted Jesus as their " personal Lord and savior". They are expecting to go to heaven! I still believe that it is God who will make the final call on who goes and who doesn’t! To put it another way, if I were a member of an evangelical Protestant church my “ticket” to heaven is prepaid with the blood of Christ. As a Catholic, my “ticket” to heaven is on *reserve *until my “spritual check” clears at the end of my life!
J
Jerry_Parker
Guest
Guntner,
**We had written: *Jerry: *Could you comment on the matter of the invocation of, and prayer to/through the saints, as possibly being “necromatic” in nature? As I mentioned in an earlier posting, I long dreaded such prayers as potential avenues of necromatic communication between the living and the dead, though I “got over” this concerning Mary, Mother of God, whose Assumption (so long ago attested to in Tradition as to abolish all doubts about the matter), assures us of her choice by God Himself to intercede on our behalf, whether we pray to/through her or not. She spiritually is Mother of the Elect, as well as Theotokos. But what about praying to/through other saints? Is there any possible taint of necromancy in this?
**Guntner: ** As stated in prior comments in this thread, the Catholic Church, as I understand its teachings, believes that all who have passed on and who we believe have gone to heaven are still alive in Christ. WE believe that our Church, “the Body of Christ”, is comprised of both the living and the dead. Intercetionary prayer, asking someone to pray for you or for someone else, can be asked of anyone who is a member of the “Body of Christ” whether living or dead. I have no problem with praying to Mary or to the established saints of our Church because there is a pretty good chance they are in heaven.
I guess that it is okay to invoke Saint Monica, my personal favourite; her patience with her wayward son, before he converted, makes me feel that she might put up with my failings, too, as she intercedes for me. I would fpr St. Monica to be my “patron saint”, but I am not sure if the Catholic Church lets the faithful have as patron saint a figure of the opposite gender, which the Holy Orthodox Church, for its part, forbids. Can you offer some enlightenment about that matter, too? As for the Blessèd Virgin Mary, I know that Our Lady, Mary the Theotokos, is saint of saints, from the fact of her Assumption into heaven body and soul to be with her Son, our Lord Jesus. The B.V.M. is a very special and exalted case.
I think that it is better to say that those who are redeemed and in Heaven (or still in Purgatory) are saved by “faith working in love”, as St. Paul put it. We are not saved by our works, per se, but by living and active faith, not the kind of one-time (and potentially empty) faith act that your family members claim to be their ticket to Heaven. One has to persevere in saving faith that “works in love” to the end. However, it sounds a bit semi-Pelagian to speak of an account for salvation as you did, presumably from not expressing the matter so clearly as one should. We are not saved by faith alone without the works that faith produces, but we are not saved by works alone, either!
Pax, Jerry
**We had written: *Jerry: *Could you comment on the matter of the invocation of, and prayer to/through the saints, as possibly being “necromatic” in nature? As I mentioned in an earlier posting, I long dreaded such prayers as potential avenues of necromatic communication between the living and the dead, though I “got over” this concerning Mary, Mother of God, whose Assumption (so long ago attested to in Tradition as to abolish all doubts about the matter), assures us of her choice by God Himself to intercede on our behalf, whether we pray to/through her or not. She spiritually is Mother of the Elect, as well as Theotokos. But what about praying to/through other saints? Is there any possible taint of necromancy in this?
**Guntner: ** As stated in prior comments in this thread, the Catholic Church, as I understand its teachings, believes that all who have passed on and who we believe have gone to heaven are still alive in Christ. WE believe that our Church, “the Body of Christ”, is comprised of both the living and the dead. Intercetionary prayer, asking someone to pray for you or for someone else, can be asked of anyone who is a member of the “Body of Christ” whether living or dead. I have no problem with praying to Mary or to the established saints of our Church because there is a pretty good chance they are in heaven.
I am reluctant, however, to pray to a dead relative or friend, since I’m not sure if they actually made it to heaven or purgatory. My mother and my brother and sisters, who have all left the Catholic Church to join a Protestant denomination, say that they are “saved” because they accepted Jesus as their " personal Lord and savior". They are expecting to go to heaven! I still believe that it is God who will make the final call on who goes and who doesn’t! To put it another way, if I were a member of an evangelical Protestant church my “ticket” to heaven is prepaid with the blood of Christ. As a Catholic, my “ticket” to heaven is on reserve until my “spritual check” clears at the end of my life! **
Thanks for your helpful response. This kind of thing occurred to me, too, i.e. that if one invokes the saints whom the Church calendar recognises, there would be no necromantic danger. Since I had a personal history of some unsavoury characters “from the other side” contacting and tormenting me, before I was exorcised, I tend to be very cautious about praying to/through the dead, even some saints. (I even had someone named “Emery”, claiming to be an “unborn” spirit, who hounded me for many years.)I guess that it is okay to invoke Saint Monica, my personal favourite; her patience with her wayward son, before he converted, makes me feel that she might put up with my failings, too, as she intercedes for me. I would fpr St. Monica to be my “patron saint”, but I am not sure if the Catholic Church lets the faithful have as patron saint a figure of the opposite gender, which the Holy Orthodox Church, for its part, forbids. Can you offer some enlightenment about that matter, too? As for the Blessèd Virgin Mary, I know that Our Lady, Mary the Theotokos, is saint of saints, from the fact of her Assumption into heaven body and soul to be with her Son, our Lord Jesus. The B.V.M. is a very special and exalted case.
I think that it is better to say that those who are redeemed and in Heaven (or still in Purgatory) are saved by “faith working in love”, as St. Paul put it. We are not saved by our works, per se, but by living and active faith, not the kind of one-time (and potentially empty) faith act that your family members claim to be their ticket to Heaven. One has to persevere in saving faith that “works in love” to the end. However, it sounds a bit semi-Pelagian to speak of an account for salvation as you did, presumably from not expressing the matter so clearly as one should. We are not saved by faith alone without the works that faith produces, but we are not saved by works alone, either!
Pax, Jerry
S
sonettegarbin
Guest
After reading some of the heated discussions in CAF and other places, the same might be said for Roman Catholics…
I don’t want to be in the position of defending Protestants. But some Catholics who claim to know what Protestants believe are wrong. Just Like some Protestants who claim to know what Catholics believe are wrong.
I am in full agreement with you. Can we not say: “somebody or some crowd said, what should I make of it” instead of saying something which implies the whole community of believers, causing some to stumble.
A Quote from; Catholic Biblical Apologetics
“This text grew out of a series of presentations which explained Roman Catholic Church teachings in a manner which was easy to understand, yet soundly rooted in the two streams of the one source of Divine Revelation. The authors each participate in two faith communities, one Roman Catholic, and the other Evangelical Protestant. We realized that much of the friction between these communities results from miscommunication and misunderstanding. Therefore, we set out to explain the basis of foundational Roman Catholic teachings.
The foundation of Christianity is relationship with Jesus. One key to this relationship is our relationships with each other. We cannot love God and hate people. Changing our lives to love people and love God more is what formation is all about. This text cannot show you the reality of Roman Catholicism. Only participation in an active faith community can give one the understanding of what Catholics are really about.
2 Tim 2:14
Remind people of these things and charge them before God to stop disputing about words. This serves no useful purpose since it harms those who listen.”
,
M
michaelanthony
Guest
If we can pray directly to God, why do I always, always get Protestant friends asking me to pray for them for one thing or another? Don’t they think that their asking God is enough? What can I do? Do they think that my prayers can add anything to that? The answer, whether they admit it or not, is “yes”, they believe that.
R
rguntner
Guest
R
rguntner
Guest
QUOTE=Jerry Parker;6804166]Guntner,
Thanks for your helpful response. This kind of thing occurred to me, too, i.e. that if one invokes the saints whom the Church calendar recognises, there would be no necromantic danger. Since I had a personal history of some unsavoury characters “from the other side” contacting and tormenting me, before I was exorcised, I tend to be very cautious about praying to/through the dead, even some saints. (I even had someone named “Emery”, claiming to be an “unborn” spirit, who hounded me for many years.)
I guess that it is okay to invoke Saint Monica, my personal favourite; her patience with her wayward son, before he converted, makes me feel that she might put up with my failings, too, as she intercedes for me. I would fpr St. Monica to be my “patron saint”, but I am not sure if the Catholic Church lets the faithful have as patron saint a figure of the opposite gender, which the Holy Orthodox Church, for its part, forbids. Can you offer some enlightenment about that matter, too? As for the Blessèd Virgin Mary, I know that Our Lady, Mary the Theotokos, is saint of saints, from the fact of her Assumption into heaven body and soul to be with her Son, our Lord Jesus. The B.V.M. is a very special and exalted case.
I think that it is better to say that those who are redeemed and in Heaven (or still in Purgatory) are saved by “faith working in love”, as St. Paul put it. We are not saved by our works, per se, but by living and active faith, not the kind of one-time (and potentially empty) faith act that your family members claim to be their ticket to Heaven. One has to persevere in saving faith that “works in love” to the end. However, it sounds a bit semi-Pelagian to speak of an account for salvation as you did, presumably from not expressing the matter so clearly as one should. We are not saved by faith alone without the works that faith produces, but we are not saved by works alone, either!
Pax, Jerry
Jerry,
It sounds like you have good reason to be cautious about praying to the saints. It sounds like you have had some harrowing experiences with “the other side”. Is it possible that you may be one of a small group of people who are hypersensitive to the spiritual world? Have you ever been tested for this?
As far as having a female patron saint, I don’t see where that should be a problem. You should be able to choose whomever you please. It is between you and God. I wouldn’t suggest it when choosing a confirmation name however unless you are OK with being teased by the other guys.
As far as Faith and Good Works are concerned, it’s a “package deal”. I sure the Church considers both of equal importance. When I was taking a class in Theology in high school, we called good works “Faith In Action”. Without Faith there is no action and without Action there is no real Faith!
Thanks for your helpful response. This kind of thing occurred to me, too, i.e. that if one invokes the saints whom the Church calendar recognises, there would be no necromantic danger. Since I had a personal history of some unsavoury characters “from the other side” contacting and tormenting me, before I was exorcised, I tend to be very cautious about praying to/through the dead, even some saints. (I even had someone named “Emery”, claiming to be an “unborn” spirit, who hounded me for many years.)
I guess that it is okay to invoke Saint Monica, my personal favourite; her patience with her wayward son, before he converted, makes me feel that she might put up with my failings, too, as she intercedes for me. I would fpr St. Monica to be my “patron saint”, but I am not sure if the Catholic Church lets the faithful have as patron saint a figure of the opposite gender, which the Holy Orthodox Church, for its part, forbids. Can you offer some enlightenment about that matter, too? As for the Blessèd Virgin Mary, I know that Our Lady, Mary the Theotokos, is saint of saints, from the fact of her Assumption into heaven body and soul to be with her Son, our Lord Jesus. The B.V.M. is a very special and exalted case.
I think that it is better to say that those who are redeemed and in Heaven (or still in Purgatory) are saved by “faith working in love”, as St. Paul put it. We are not saved by our works, per se, but by living and active faith, not the kind of one-time (and potentially empty) faith act that your family members claim to be their ticket to Heaven. One has to persevere in saving faith that “works in love” to the end. However, it sounds a bit semi-Pelagian to speak of an account for salvation as you did, presumably from not expressing the matter so clearly as one should. We are not saved by faith alone without the works that faith produces, but we are not saved by works alone, either!
Pax, Jerry
Jerry,
It sounds like you have good reason to be cautious about praying to the saints. It sounds like you have had some harrowing experiences with “the other side”. Is it possible that you may be one of a small group of people who are hypersensitive to the spiritual world? Have you ever been tested for this?
As far as having a female patron saint, I don’t see where that should be a problem. You should be able to choose whomever you please. It is between you and God. I wouldn’t suggest it when choosing a confirmation name however unless you are OK with being teased by the other guys.
As far as Faith and Good Works are concerned, it’s a “package deal”. I sure the Church considers both of equal importance. When I was taking a class in Theology in high school, we called good works “Faith In Action”. Without Faith there is no action and without Action there is no real Faith!
G
Garland
Guest
Hi All, as a former “protestor,” I can truthfully say that anything any protestant says about catholic beliefs will most certainly change the next time you talk to another or different church member. The only thing they they really have in common is thier ever changing beliefs. After 40 yrs. of the truth of Catholic Christianity, I find it hard to lend credence to anything they say as a group or as individuals. I try to be very polite and never slur their faith systems, but am adamant that Jesus only founded 1, one, and only one church. The only reason there are more than 39,000 competeing sects is they refuse to break their will to his.
As to prayer to the saints, they have given up one of the great gifts and power systems that can trully change lives and help pilgrims on their journey back to God. To willfully slander the Catholic Church is to willfully slander Jesus himself. The two are inseperable. He who hears you, hears me. Blessings. Garland
J
Jerry_Parker
Guest
Guntner,
You wrote: *It sounds like you have good reason to be cautious about praying to the saints. It sounds like you have had some harrowing experiences with “the other side”. Is it possible that you may be one of a small group of people who are hypersensitive to the spiritual world? Have you ever been tested for this?
As far as having a female patron saint, I don’t see where that should be a problem. You should be able to choose whomever you please. It is between you and God. I wouldn’t suggest it when choosing a confirmation name however unless you are OK with being teased by the other guys.
I do have a Confirmation name, by the way, which is Paul.
Yes, faith and works tie into salvation but not as separate entities, the “living and active faith” of the N.T. is an interaction of the two, a sort of fusion.
*Pax, *Jerry Parker
You wrote: *It sounds like you have good reason to be cautious about praying to the saints. It sounds like you have had some harrowing experiences with “the other side”. Is it possible that you may be one of a small group of people who are hypersensitive to the spiritual world? Have you ever been tested for this?
As far as having a female patron saint, I don’t see where that should be a problem. You should be able to choose whomever you please. It is between you and God. I wouldn’t suggest it when choosing a confirmation name however unless you are OK with being teased by the other guys.
As far as Faith and Good Works are concerned, it’s a “package deal”. I sure the Church considers both of equal importance. When I was taking a class in Theology in high school, we called good works “Faith In Action”. Without Faith there is no action and without Action there is no real Faith!*
Uh, I don’t know about my “hypersensitivity to the spiritual world”, but after what I endured so much of my life before exorcism, I am not about to find out again, let me tell you! I prefer simply to be cautious and to shun the subject as much as life lets me do so.I do have a Confirmation name, by the way, which is Paul.
Yes, faith and works tie into salvation but not as separate entities, the “living and active faith” of the N.T. is an interaction of the two, a sort of fusion.
*Pax, *Jerry Parker
M
matthewtan
Guest
God bless! I had been a Methodist until mid-1960s. Once I became a Catholic, I had never problem approaching Mother Mary or some saints to intercede for me.
On Apr 1, 2006, the eve of Papa John Paul II’s 1st death anniversary, my 5 yrs old grandson, Marcus, suffered severe ankle pains. Very frequently over the past 4 yrs, he suffered such extreme ankle pains during around mid-nite for next few hrs. Thrice, we had to rush him to hospital’s A & E as we could not do anything to stop his ceaseless pain. He would scream to ask me to cut off his leg to stop the pain. I have a praying and healing ministry for years and yet we were helpless despite frequent prayers, etc.
In desperation, I asked Lord Jesus Christ what should I do. Immediately, I received a prompting to ask Marcus to look at Papa John Paul II’s photo on the wall of our bedroom. I was wondering that petitioning to the late Pope was of lesser value than direct petition to our Lord. Anyway, I told my grandson that he had suffered for so many times that we should now ask Papa John to ask Jesus Lord to heal him.
Within seconds of his looking at Papa John’s photo, he stopped crying as there was no more pain. Praise the Lord!
2 Papa John though bodily dead was gloriously living in heaven at the side of the Throne of the Lamb. Jesus Christ, the King and Lamb, is God of the dead Abraham, Jacob and Isaac, and Papa John, etc.
3 So asking the saints in heaven to pray for us is an exciting channel as per will of God.
On Apr 1, 2006, the eve of Papa John Paul II’s 1st death anniversary, my 5 yrs old grandson, Marcus, suffered severe ankle pains. Very frequently over the past 4 yrs, he suffered such extreme ankle pains during around mid-nite for next few hrs. Thrice, we had to rush him to hospital’s A & E as we could not do anything to stop his ceaseless pain. He would scream to ask me to cut off his leg to stop the pain. I have a praying and healing ministry for years and yet we were helpless despite frequent prayers, etc.
In desperation, I asked Lord Jesus Christ what should I do. Immediately, I received a prompting to ask Marcus to look at Papa John Paul II’s photo on the wall of our bedroom. I was wondering that petitioning to the late Pope was of lesser value than direct petition to our Lord. Anyway, I told my grandson that he had suffered for so many times that we should now ask Papa John to ask Jesus Lord to heal him.
Within seconds of his looking at Papa John’s photo, he stopped crying as there was no more pain. Praise the Lord!
2 Papa John though bodily dead was gloriously living in heaven at the side of the Throne of the Lamb. Jesus Christ, the King and Lamb, is God of the dead Abraham, Jacob and Isaac, and Papa John, etc.
3 So asking the saints in heaven to pray for us is an exciting channel as per will of God.
M
matthewtan
Guest
God bless! additional facts:
a. prior to my grandson’s Apr 1 2006 healing of his frequent ankle pains (children hospital doctors could not explain the causes but suspected it could be 'growing pains"), Marcus had suffered for 3 yrs.
b. Since his healing (4 yrs ago), there is no more occurence. I am convinced that thru’ the intercession of the late Pope, Marcus received his permanent healing.
2 The late Pope although dead in body surely is gloriously living in heaven at the side of the Throne, our Lord Jesus King and Lamb.
Jesus Lord is the God of the dead: Abraham, Jacob and Isaac, and the living.
3 God in His Divine Mercy heals directly or thru’ His saints!
a. prior to my grandson’s Apr 1 2006 healing of his frequent ankle pains (children hospital doctors could not explain the causes but suspected it could be 'growing pains"), Marcus had suffered for 3 yrs.
b. Since his healing (4 yrs ago), there is no more occurence. I am convinced that thru’ the intercession of the late Pope, Marcus received his permanent healing.
2 The late Pope although dead in body surely is gloriously living in heaven at the side of the Throne, our Lord Jesus King and Lamb.
Jesus Lord is the God of the dead: Abraham, Jacob and Isaac, and the living.
3 God in His Divine Mercy heals directly or thru’ His saints!
R
rguntner
Guest
[Uh, I don’t know about my “hypersensitivity to the spiritual world”, but after what I endured so much of my life before exorcism, I am not about to find out again, let me tell you! I prefer simply to be cautious and to shun the subject as much as life lets me do so.
I do have a Confirmation name, by the way, which is Paul.
Yes, faith and works tie into salvation but not as separate entities, the “living and active faith” of the N.T. is an interaction of the two, a sort of fusion.
*Pax, Jerry Parker
Jerry,
I didn’t mean to upset you with my remarks about “hypersensitivity to the spirit world”. I just know that there are some people out there who are very sensitive to and can detect “paranormal activity”. They don’t go out of their way to evoke these entities. It just happens to them. It is almost like they are a “lightening rod” that constantly attracts entities from spirit world. I wasn’t sure whether your “possession” occurred “out of the blue” or if it was the result of an active interest in the occult. If it was the latter, I can see why you wouldn’t want to open that “portal” again. I can only imagine what you have gone through. Please accept my humblest apologies?
I do have a Confirmation name, by the way, which is Paul.
Yes, faith and works tie into salvation but not as separate entities, the “living and active faith” of the N.T. is an interaction of the two, a sort of fusion.
*Pax, Jerry Parker
Jerry,
I didn’t mean to upset you with my remarks about “hypersensitivity to the spirit world”. I just know that there are some people out there who are very sensitive to and can detect “paranormal activity”. They don’t go out of their way to evoke these entities. It just happens to them. It is almost like they are a “lightening rod” that constantly attracts entities from spirit world. I wasn’t sure whether your “possession” occurred “out of the blue” or if it was the result of an active interest in the occult. If it was the latter, I can see why you wouldn’t want to open that “portal” again. I can only imagine what you have gone through. Please accept my humblest apologies?
J
Jerry_Parker
Guest
Guntner,
Anyway, I loathe all that and am more cautious, perhaps, than most folk are. I avoid seeing films that are too suggestive of the supernatural, especially of the kind that most has bothered me; it “spooks” me too much to see such films.
So, I am very cautious about the cult of saints, not denying it, just wary of it. For example, I am not at all so sure that Pope John Paul II truly was the material of sainthood. He compromised the Church in some ways that horrify me, namely his unprincipled syncretism with other religions, even animism and the most extreme polytheism. Then there are his homages to Talmudic Judaism and to Islam; the latter is understandable, to a degree, because of Islam’s closeness to Christianity, but to grovel before rabbinical, observantly Talmudistic Judaism just revolts me! The Church has admitted that some of its “saints” no longer are saints, e.g. St. Caecilia and St. Christopher, so I am not about to have such utter confidence in the dicey likes of John Paul II, you can trust that! When I got close to John Paul II once, which I tried to avoid, but was not able to, I sensed revolting evil, as I had apprehended, instinctively, long before. I won’t describe an horrifying experience that I had concerning the change of the papacy from the saintly and sweetly amiable John Paul I to him. I feel revlied that John Paul II’s papacy is over and that Benedict XVI is seated on the Throne of St. Peter! The papcy may be infallible, but that does not assure that deficient occupents occupy the papacy (but are restrained in what they can implement of their personal views when wrong). Any way, I just mention J.P. as an example, since someone else brought him up in other postings.
Thanks for your concern!
Pax, Jerry Parker
**You wrote: ** *I didn’t mean to upset you with my remarks about “hypersensitivity to the spirit world”. I just know that there are some people out there who are very sensitive to and can detect “paranormal activity”. They don’t go out of their way to evoke these entities. It just happens to them. It is almost like they are a “lightening rod” that constantly attracts entities from spirit world. I wasn’t sure whether your “possession” occurred “out of the blue” or if it was the result of an active interest in the occult. If it was the latter, I can see why you wouldn’t want to open that “portal” again. I can only imagine what you have gone through. Please accept my humblest apologies? *
Yes, I see what you mean. In my case, I seem to be one of those who, passively, attracts the supernatural to me, rather than am attracted to what “is beyond”, actively seeking the supernatural. I had my first such experience (and perhaps the most horrifying of them ever) when I was a very young child, at about 4 years old or so, “out of the blue”. Such experiences almost always beset me when I was fully awake and conscious. I tried mostly to avoid this sort of thing, though I did have contact with the supernatural through friends at times, but the experiences always surprised and overwhelmed me. I never had a false perception of being in control of such things or able to manipulate them.Anyway, I loathe all that and am more cautious, perhaps, than most folk are. I avoid seeing films that are too suggestive of the supernatural, especially of the kind that most has bothered me; it “spooks” me too much to see such films.
So, I am very cautious about the cult of saints, not denying it, just wary of it. For example, I am not at all so sure that Pope John Paul II truly was the material of sainthood. He compromised the Church in some ways that horrify me, namely his unprincipled syncretism with other religions, even animism and the most extreme polytheism. Then there are his homages to Talmudic Judaism and to Islam; the latter is understandable, to a degree, because of Islam’s closeness to Christianity, but to grovel before rabbinical, observantly Talmudistic Judaism just revolts me! The Church has admitted that some of its “saints” no longer are saints, e.g. St. Caecilia and St. Christopher, so I am not about to have such utter confidence in the dicey likes of John Paul II, you can trust that! When I got close to John Paul II once, which I tried to avoid, but was not able to, I sensed revolting evil, as I had apprehended, instinctively, long before. I won’t describe an horrifying experience that I had concerning the change of the papacy from the saintly and sweetly amiable John Paul I to him. I feel revlied that John Paul II’s papacy is over and that Benedict XVI is seated on the Throne of St. Peter! The papcy may be infallible, but that does not assure that deficient occupents occupy the papacy (but are restrained in what they can implement of their personal views when wrong). Any way, I just mention J.P. as an example, since someone else brought him up in other postings.
Thanks for your concern!
Pax, Jerry Parker
Hi Fred,
Hope this helps - from the LCMS website.
lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2670
EDIT: On the topic, I do not believe that invocation of saints even approaches necromancy.
Jon
J
Jerry_Parker
Guest
Fred and Jon,
**You wrote: ** Fred: I do know, having a Baptist background, that most fundamentalist churches believe that, if you’re “saved” at the time of death, your soul immediately goes to heaven to be with the Lord.
As for the Protestant churches you mention, I presume that you mean, Lutheran, Episcopal, etc.? I’ve never been too clear on exactly what they believe.
**Jon: ** *ope [that] this helps - from the LCMS website: Quote: The Lutheran church has always rejected as unscriptural the idea that the soul “sleeps” between death and Judgment Day in such a way that it is not conscious of heavenly bliss. *
Fred, if you have a Baptist background, it would seem surely to be that of a “Reformed” (Calvinist) Baptist, not of the usual “Arminian” type of Baptist that one usually encounters. (Once, most Baptists, indeed, were “Calvinists” in their teaching, but the influence of Methodism’s Wesleyan Arminianism greatly changed that.) The usual Baptist (Fundamentalist or neo-evangelical) would consider that “if once saved, the soul is always saved”, whether there is perseverance to the end of life or not. Calvinist soteriology teaches that the soul once truly saved invariably will persevere to the end, but if a man or woman dies without saving faith, that would be the indication that s/he never truly had been saved at all; the soul dying in unbelief is not of the elect, however the (wo)man’s opinions may professed of Christianity at some point(s) earlier in life.
Lutheran and Anglican/Protestant Episcopal soteriology (and I refer to these group’s classical, not degraded, “liberal” manifestations of teaching on soteriology, rejecting later tendencies to universalism) is much closer to Roman Catholic teaching, insisting on perseverance to the end for faith to have been salvific. Both interpret sanctification in a way that would make faith living and to bear good works if it be authentic; the emphasis may be a bit different, but this is not far from what St. Thomas Acquinas taught. Lutheran and Reformed/Calvinist teaching essentially are only slightly defective variants of prior Western (Catholic) doctrine, certainly the case regarding their soteriology.
I hope that I’ve gotten all that right! It can be a bit complex to explain.
Pax, Jerry Parker**
**You wrote: ** Fred: I do know, having a Baptist background, that most fundamentalist churches believe that, if you’re “saved” at the time of death, your soul immediately goes to heaven to be with the Lord.
As for the Protestant churches you mention, I presume that you mean, Lutheran, Episcopal, etc.? I’ve never been too clear on exactly what they believe.
**Jon: ** *ope [that] this helps - from the LCMS website: Quote: The Lutheran church has always rejected as unscriptural the idea that the soul “sleeps” between death and Judgment Day in such a way that it is not conscious of heavenly bliss. *
lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2670
The quote from the L.C.M.S. Website that you gave, Jon, is describing the heretical doctrine of “soul sleep”, which is the teaching most notably of Adventistism, as well, curiously, of Islam. It does not bear, really, from the wording given there, on Baptist, Anglican/Protestant Episcopal, or Lutheranism’s own teaching.Fred, if you have a Baptist background, it would seem surely to be that of a “Reformed” (Calvinist) Baptist, not of the usual “Arminian” type of Baptist that one usually encounters. (Once, most Baptists, indeed, were “Calvinists” in their teaching, but the influence of Methodism’s Wesleyan Arminianism greatly changed that.) The usual Baptist (Fundamentalist or neo-evangelical) would consider that “if once saved, the soul is always saved”, whether there is perseverance to the end of life or not. Calvinist soteriology teaches that the soul once truly saved invariably will persevere to the end, but if a man or woman dies without saving faith, that would be the indication that s/he never truly had been saved at all; the soul dying in unbelief is not of the elect, however the (wo)man’s opinions may professed of Christianity at some point(s) earlier in life.
Lutheran and Anglican/Protestant Episcopal soteriology (and I refer to these group’s classical, not degraded, “liberal” manifestations of teaching on soteriology, rejecting later tendencies to universalism) is much closer to Roman Catholic teaching, insisting on perseverance to the end for faith to have been salvific. Both interpret sanctification in a way that would make faith living and to bear good works if it be authentic; the emphasis may be a bit different, but this is not far from what St. Thomas Acquinas taught. Lutheran and Reformed/Calvinist teaching essentially are only slightly defective variants of prior Western (Catholic) doctrine, certainly the case regarding their soteriology.
I hope that I’ve gotten all that right! It can be a bit complex to explain.
Pax, Jerry Parker**
R
rguntner
Guest
Jerry,
Many of the “hypersensitives” I mentioned state that their first contacts with the spirit world had been at a young age. Over time, they learned to either block it out completely or at least manage it. It never really goes away, however.
As far as John Paul II is concern, there does seem to be a major public relations campaign to “fast track” his canonization. How close did you get to him during your encounter? Was this before or after your exorcism? If it was before, could it have been the demonic entity within you that was “reviled” by his presence?
As far as his “unprincipled syncretism with other religions”, how much of this do you think was “political posturing” on his part. After all, he is also a head of state. As far as his responsibly as the head of the Catholic faith, I see nothing wrong with opposing religions seeking common ground from within each other’s faiths to avoid conflict. It sure beats killing each other!
M
Miguel_Sastre
Guest
In my view, Evangelicals should be extra careful in equating the Catholic practice of praying to the saints with the occult practice of necromancy. They are not exactly the same thing. Yet they do seem to overlap, if not conceptually, at least in popular practice in many Catholic subcultures.
Consider the term “necromancy” itself. It derives from two Greek words, “nekros” (dead) and “manteia” (prophecy/divination). Strictly speaking, “necromancy” is communication with the dead, usually for the purpose of obtaining information. I am not here using the term in a technical sense, for it seems that a broad range of practices can fall under the rubric of “necromancy” or “communicating with the dead.”
Take, for example, Saul’s consultation of the Witch of Endor (1 Sam. 28:3-25). This is a fairly cut-and-dry case of necromancy. I agree with Catholics that this is not what praying to the saints is.
On the other hand, however, since necromancy can encompass a broad spectrum of practice, we would do well to investigate whether or not praying to saints can fall under the rubric of necromancy.
Consider the term “necromancy” itself. It derives from two Greek words, “nekros” (dead) and “manteia” (prophecy/divination). Strictly speaking, “necromancy” is communication with the dead, usually for the purpose of obtaining information. I am not here using the term in a technical sense, for it seems that a broad range of practices can fall under the rubric of “necromancy” or “communicating with the dead.”
Take, for example, Saul’s consultation of the Witch of Endor (1 Sam. 28:3-25). This is a fairly cut-and-dry case of necromancy. I agree with Catholics that this is not what praying to the saints is.
On the other hand, however, since necromancy can encompass a broad spectrum of practice, we would do well to investigate whether or not praying to saints can fall under the rubric of necromancy.
- Is praying to the saints communication with the dead? Answer: Yes. It may very well be that the saints are “alive” in heaven. But they are also physically dead. In the example above, Samuel is dead. And yet he appears to be perfectly “alive” in the story. Unless we suppose that the spirit Saul was speaking to was impersonating Samuel (a possibility, but one not stated in the text itself), I think we have to conclude that Samuel, though dead, was “alive” in some other realm.
- If we suppose that the saints are in the same condition as Samuel (physically dead, but spiritually alive), then the question becomes, are we allowed to speak to them? Answer: No. The Bible does not qualify the nature or purpose or intention behind the communication; it simply forbids it. What Saul did was absolutely a no-no, even though it “worked.”
- Therefore, since praying to saints is a kind of communication with the dead, the only prudent conclusion we can draw is to abstain from the practice. All things being equal, if we’re not sure whether or not praying to saints falls under the rubric of necromancy, we ought to play it safe and assume that it does.
- Status