Need advice: At what point is someone late for Divine Liturgy?

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At what point is someone late for Divine Liturgy to the point where they should attend another Divine Liturgy? (The local Ukrainian Catholic Church has 3 Divine Liturgies where I live and there are tons of Roman rite churches nearby). In the Roman Church I’ve heard that it’s the “Offertory”, is there also a specific point in the East?

I ask because my girlfriend (a cradle Ukrainian Catholic) habitually comes late to Liturgy, even after the Cherubic Hymn, yet receives Communion and does not attend another Liturgy, when a later one is available.

Also she does not go to Liturgy at all if she “wakes up late” and missed the Liturgy she normally goes to, even though a later one is available.

I’ve also seen her and her family do something which I found kind of strange. They came to Liturgy just after it started, went downstairs to the church basement to eat breakfast (the people from the early morning liturgy were downstairs eating still) and then went back upstairs to Liturgy.

From dating her a few months now I get the idea that her understanding of Liturgy is more or less that you just need to “make a showing” at some point and you are all good.

I’ve looked it up in the Eastern Code of Canon Law and the Particular Law of the UGCC and it’s pretty clear that there is an obligation (as much as Easterns don’t like that term) to attend Sunday Liturgy and Holy Day Liturgies.

What is the answer to this and how does one approach this delicate subject without offending?

I mean I could show her the documents, but I don’t know if she will take it in the right way. I have a feeling that she and her family have been doing this for years. They are “active” in the parish as far as the festivities go, and her Mom is Ukrainian Orthodox (Ecumenical Patriarchate) but only goes to her Church twice a year. Oh yeah, and she knew her Mom was Orthodox but did not know what Patriarchate, I had to research that too. She also did not know who Patriarch Sviatoslav (the UGCC Patriarch) is.

Once I went to a Serbian Orthodox Church and I noticed people coming and going even after the Consecration happened. Perhaps this coming late is an cradle/cultural Orthodox thing?
 
In the Greek Orthodox Church, it is relatively common for people to come in late, receive Communion, and leave. This might be due to the repetitiveness of the liturgy and its length.
 
Ever heard of Byzantine time?

My priest (who is from Eastern Europe) has been known to refer to “that thing, where they show up and light a candle, and say they’ve been to Liturgy.”

Going downstairs and having breakfast after the liturgy has started seems a bit over the top.
 
babochka said:
Ever heard of Byzantine time?

My priest (who is from Eastern Europe) has been known to refer to “that thing, where they show up and light a candle, and say they’ve been to Liturgy.”

Going downstairs and having breakfast after the liturgy has started seems a bit over the top.
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I think breakfast or lunch is a very good idea for people who have fasted since Midnight.

I remember a woman at a greek church who would sit in the parish hall chain smoking and then would go to communion then back to the parish hall and more cigarettes!
 
andrewstx said:
I think breakfast or lunch is a very good idea for people who have fasted since Midnight.

I remember a woman at a greek church who would sit in the parish hall chain smoking and then would go to communion then back to the parish hall and more cigarettes!
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Oops. I meant during the liturgy, before they attend. We always have lunch after the liturgy.

At the local Greek church, all the men hang out during the liturgy, visiting and talking business.
 
In Latin america you are late for the liturgy if you arrive after the first lecture. I am not sure as to the USA as many things seem to be different between the USA and the church in Hispanic countries but to us, that is the norm.
 
To the OP, in the Latin Church, to my understanding, it use to be after the offertory was late but now it’s if you don’t hear the Gospel because there’s supposed to be the continuity of the Word to the sacrifice.

Anyway, in the East we don’t have such exactitudes. I personally I don’t feel like I know enough about the Byzantine liturgy to draw a line, but if I arrive to a Maronite liturgy during or after the hoosoyo (a rite offering incense before the readings) I refrain from receiving. Unless a result of extenuating circumstances, I don’t feel prepared to receive - but I do not judge people who come in just in time for communion (however, I would as their pastor). Every prayer, whether out loud or sotto voce, is there for a reason - the clipping away of “unnecessary parts” is an innovation of the novus ordo. If God gives me 168hrs. in a week, cannot I not give 1 or 2 hours?
 
MorEphrem said:
To the OP, in the Latin Church, to my understanding, it use to be after the offertory was late but now it’s if you don’t hear the Gospel because there’s supposed to be the continuity of the Word to the sacrifice.

Anyway, in the East we don’t have such exactitudes. I personally I don’t feel like I know enough about the Byzantine liturgy to draw a line, but if I arrive to a Maronite liturgy during or after the hoosoyo (a rite offering incense before the readings) I refrain from receiving. Unless a result of extenuating circumstances, I don’t feel prepared to receive - but I do not judge people who come in just in time for communion (however, I would as their pastor). Every prayer, whether out loud or sotto voce, is there for a reason - the clipping away of “unnecessary parts” is an innovation of the novus ordo. If God gives me 168hrs. in a week, cannot I not give 1 or 2 hours?
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I could be wrong, but it appears to me that the point of this thread is to determine the point at which the “obligation” is satisfied. If it’s not that, I really have no idea what the question is.

Long ago and far away, (most definitely in pre-conciliar days), it was taught to me that if one was late for the Gospel, one did not satisfy one’s “obligation” but that doesn’t seem to have been a hard and fast rule: from what I hear, in some places it was the Offertory, in others something else. 🤷

Anyway, the entire concept of “obligation” in this sense is totally alien to the Orient and East, so there really is not a particular moment where being late becomes an issue
 
I have always seen (among those who believe that one can be too late) that regardless of varying opinions of what constitutes being late (missing the opening blessing, the Little Entrance, etc), all generally agree that if you miss the Gospel, you certainly are too late. I have never seen anything later than the reading of the Gospel being presented as making it on time to receive the Eucharist in the Byzantine East.

Traditionally the doors were locked before the Creed not allowing anyone to enter or exit. This is still referenced in the Divine Liturgy: “The Doors! The Doors! In wisdom, let us attend!”

Following the call to love, the Symbol of Faith, also called the Creed, is chanted. The traditional introduction to the recitation of the creed in the liturgy is the exclamation: The Doors! The Doors! In wisdom, let us attend! The doors referred to here are the doors of the church building, and not the doors of the iconostasis as some have been known to think, since this is a call to assure that all catechumens and non-communicants have left, and that now no one may enter or leave the liturgical assembly. The historical reason for such an exclamation in the Divine Liturgy was not only that order might be kept in the church, but that the Creed might be pronounced only by those who had already officially pronounced it at baptism, and continued to confess it within the life of the Church.

Source: oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/worship/the-divine-liturgy/love-and-faith
 
“Hacker” - others have addressed the issue of a different concept of “obligation”. We don’t generally engage in the calculus of how late can you get to church. That doesn’t mean there is no obligation at all. It’s just that the Christian East looks at this differently. The point is less about satisfying a legal precept and more about giving worship to God with the Church and growing in theosis, in our “partaking of the the Divine Nature.”

At my parish there used to be a mother and daughter, Russians, who arrived sometime in the middle of the Liturgy, lit a couple candles, stood in a prayer for a minute, and then left. This is, shall we say, less than optimal, if for no other reason than what they personally missed.

The practice of popping into the previous Liturgy’s after-Liturgy meal for bite first, then on to Church, is as babochka wrote, over the top. It means they can’t go to communion (unless the UGCC as changed to Eucharistic fast to some almost non-existent time period.)

All of that said, I think your main reason for the post was to ask for advice about how to handle this with your girlfriend and family. Since you have only been dating her a few months, and are only recently (correct me if I’m wrong) getting acquainted with eastern Catholic Churches, I would recommend not bringing up the topic directly, because they will only react defensively and tell you to mind your own business: what do you know about it anyway?

Do you typically go to the Liturgy with your GF on Sundays (whenever she happens to be ready)? Perhaps instead you could get there on your own before the Liturgy starts, and tell her she can come along if she wants, or she can come later if she prefers. You would be telling her by your actions that this is IMPORTANT, that in the Divine Liturgy is the source of LIFE and you don’t want to miss any of it if you can help it. You might tell her (if it is true, that is) that you are interested in learning and understanding the Divine Liturgy better, that you find it uplifting, etc…, and hence want to experience the whole thing.
 
andrewstx said:
I think breakfast or lunch is a very good idea for people who have fasted since Midnight.

I remember a woman at a greek church who would sit in the parish hall chain smoking and then would go to communion then back to the parish hall and more cigarettes!
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Have you seen the Cradle Christopher meme from Hyperdox Herman? This is a terrible stereotype, but unfortunately common enough to be a known stereotype.
 
As someone who came into the Eastern Church as an adult, I can say that many in the Eastern Church do not understand what they have, what a treasure and privilege it is to be in the presence of the Trinity at Liturgy. I know people would never think of showing up at a theater for a movie late and come in a 1/2 hour after it started. If you went with a friend and they caused you to come in late to a movie, you would be really upset. If only that transferred to the Liturgy! On the other hand, I have met some amazing people who knew how to pray the Liturgy well, and their faith life brought heaven down to earth. God, grant us more people like that! The world would be different!

Try not to let her casual attitude influence you to do the same! God bless.
 
To the original poster:

I have yet to attend a Divine Liturgy where people attend as though it is a secondary goings-on during other events (breakfast, coffee, etc.). Perhaps we are so grateful we have churches that we wouldn’t think of reducing liturgy to a simple social gathering.

Regardless, it sounds like your girlfriend has not actually attended the liturgy for some time as she does not seem to be there spiritually. As an answer to your question, in the east, the Divine Liturgy never ends, it is eternal. Therefore, it is impossible to be late. As humans, we only have the opportunity to engage in the Divine Liturgy for short periods of time during our earthly life. Why would one not take every opportunity to experience it? Either you are there body, soul and spirit or you are not. Any portion of the Divine Liturgy experienced here on earth should be fulfilling regardless of the time one arrives.
 
Symeon said:
"Hacker-

At my parish there used to be a mother and daughter, Russians, who arrived sometime in the middle of the Liturgy, lit a couple candles, stood in a prayer for a minute, and then left. This is, shall we say, less than optimal, if for no other reason than what they personally missed.

The practice of popping into the previous Liturgy’s after-Liturgy meal for bite first, then on to Church, is as babochka wrote, over the top. It means they can’t go to communion (unless the UGCC as changed to Eucharistic fast to some almost non-existent time period.)
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Several years ago I attended a Russian Orthodox Sunday service and noticed many people coming in, buying candles, walking through the church and bowing three times-usually to the floor, in front of each icon, then moving on to the next icon, then out. In another room was a delicious breakfast which many were enjoying. I’m not sure of the entirety of what I was observing but could your family have come from this tradition and never learned otherwise?
 
The following is me thinking out loud…

I try to be as anonymous as possible on the forums (Eastern Catholic world is VERY small I’ve learned) and don’t like engaging in polemics. I am actually canonically part of the UGCC, my transfer being accepted a short time ago. I’ve been attending Divine Liturgy for about 5 years and have been studying the East for about 10 years. I still do have a lot of “Latin” baggage (and I don’t think that’s entirely a bad thing all the time). A few internet armchair Eastern theologians on Facebook have told me I still have a “Latin” mind. So be it. I’m more of the Peter Mohiyla school of thought- I think scholasticism can be useful for some things.

I think the problem I am having is understanding “cradle” UGCC and Ukrainian Orthodox culture. Over the years my experience of the Orthodox and Greek Catholic Church has mainly been through contact with people who are either 1) clerics, monastics or cantors 2) attend services outside of the “required” ones 3) “Converts” from the Roman Church
3) Members of Orthodox jurisdictions that are more of a “traditional” bend (the ROCOR for example)

Like now that I am getting deeper in the culture I find people that don’t know what Patriarchate their church is part of, Orthodox who call Liturgy “Mass”, Ukrainians who are going to Roman Catholic Mass because “it’s shorter” etc.

I’m not judging, nor am I complaining. I love our UGCC Church and I think joining it was possibly the best decision I ever made. I think our Patriarch is the most awesome Bishop in the Catholic Church.

I bring up these issues because I believe dating is discernment for marriage and I’d like to find myself a good Greek Catholic woman who is strong in her Faith. Most of the ones I meet, including my GF, are good people, but they don’t seem that interested in the Faith, at least not as much as people on these forums or Latin traditionalists. The benefit is, being from Greek Catholic cultures they are not feminists. The question is, can I, through a relationship help her to care more about their Faith and the Eastern tradition?
Most of the friends she grew up with in the parish, dropped off, they no longer attend any Church, let alone a Byzantine one. If I got married and started a family I’d want my kids to be well educated in the Faith and in the Eastern Tradition.

At the same time I am wondering if the reason why I am so interested in the Faith (and Latin trads are) is because modernism hit big time in the West so we either had to study our Faith or lose it, whereas someone who grew up in the UGCC grew up with everything normal (no clown Liturgies, etc) therefore they have the tendency to take it for granted.
 
Another thought…perhaps in Orthodoxy there is no concept of being “too late” because most Orthodox parishes have only one Divine Liturgy per day in the church, and they are usually at 10:00am, therefore if you come late there is no “later Liturgy” or Roman Catholic Mass option to go to. If you are late for your own parish’s liturgy, you are late for the other ones too because they start at the same time.

It’s my understanding that multiple Liturgies on the same altar per day is a Latinization, no?
 
christian2112 said:
In the Greek Orthodox Church, it is relatively common for people to come in late, receive Communion, and leave.
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babochka said:
Ever heard of Byzantine time?

My priest (who is from Eastern Europe) has been known to refer to “that thing, where they show up and light a candle, and say they’ve been to Liturgy.”

Going downstairs and having breakfast after the liturgy has started seems a bit over the top.
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Auntie_A said:
Several years ago I attended a Russian Orthodox Sunday service and noticed many people coming in, buying candles, walking through the church and bowing three times-usually to the floor, in front of each icon, then moving on to the next icon, then out.
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I haven’t been in enough different Eastern Catholic Churches to comment. But I’ve been in plenty of services in Greek Orthodox and Russian Orthodox where versions of the above have happened any number of times. I’ve certainly seen people come in after Communion was finished and the Eucharist had been taken back into the holy place, only to have someone arrive, knock on the north Deacon door and receive communion. The need to have confessed within the last day would be more of an issue for being granted Communion in a Russian Orthodox Church.

It needn’t be some sort of Latin like rule that determines for you what is too late. Personally, the clergy prayers in front of the iconostasis before vesting are something I love being present for. Another friend recently said the same.

I arrived around the time of the Little Entrance during a number of daily DL at the local Greek Cathedral when their newly ordained priest was celebrating daily for 40 days. Although the schedule said 9:30 DL when I got there at 9:20 it was typically already going, having begun the minute Orthros finished. I wasn’t happy arriving after the Liturgy had begun. I was sometimes the only one in the pew for the first 10 or 15 minutes. Eventually 15 or 20 turned up. On the other hand there, on the Feast of Circumcision, and of St Basil, Orthros was still going on at 9:45.

It sounds like you already have a sense for yourself that the style of participation of your girlfriend’s family just isn’t for you. Your interest may encourage her, but whether it does or not I hope you will enjoy the fullness of what we have with the Liturgy, and Orthros/Matins if they have that.
 
Several of my prior pastors would not commune those who missed the sermon; 2 of them wouldn commune anyone they saw enter after the start of the alleluia.

Late arrivals, as long as they didn’t present for communion, were not commented upon.

One (well known the the parish) exception was made: one family, the grandmother (also the driver) worked until 9am, and drove 30-40 miles to get to church - 15-20 home to get kids and grandkids, 15-20 to church. In bad weather, they usually presented, and were communed, even if they arrived during the sermon.
 
I was always taught that if you missed the Gospel then that was wrong. That was the cut off point!
 
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