Need advice for "Liturgy Rights" group

[debbie_m]

I need some advice about this. Any ideas, thoughts, etc…

I am thinking about getting a diocesan group together, comprised of lay faithful, for the purpose of working to preserve the Sacred Liturgy of the Church – specifically working toward this in our diocese.

Roughly, I see the purpose of the group to first educate the faithful about the Sacred Liturgy and where to find resources, also to discuss liturgical abuses at our parishes and in the diocese and then have a pre-formed plan of action in dealing with them. Also, assisting others – like a consultant – in the diocese to deal with liturgical abuses at their own parishes.

My inspiration comes from Inaestimabile Donum:

"The faithful have a right to a true Liturgy, which means the Liturgy desired and laid down by the Church, which has in fact indicated where adaptations may be made as called for by pastoral requirements in different places or by different groups of people. Undue experimentation, changes and creativity bewilder the faithful. The use of unauthorized texts means a loss of the necessary connection between the lex orandi and the lex credendi."

I’m soooo tired of being “victims of weird and strange liturgical creativity!”

God bless,
Debbie

 

[Scott_Waddell]

Sounds like a good idea. My advice is to make it abundently clear to anyone who enquires about your group that you are orthodox and not radical traditionalist. You do this by putting plainly in sight the following:

1. JPII is the legitimate Pope (Don’t hedge on this with things like, “legitimate but heretical” which will send good Catholics running.)
2. Vatican II is a legitimate, binding ecumenical Council. (Again, no hedging with stuff like, “pastoral Council”)
3. The so-called “Novus Ordo” liturgy is both valid and licit.

Also, always build your liturgical reforms up rather than tearing others down. Criticism is fine, but avoid the chip-on-the-shoulder attitude that pervades many liturgical housecleaning movements.

Scott

 

[katolik]

debbie m.:

I need some advice about this. Any ideas, thoughts, etc…

I am thinking about getting a diocesan group together, comprised of lay faithful, for the purpose of working to preserve the Sacred Liturgy of the Church – specifically working toward this in our diocese.

Roughly, I see the purpose of the group to first educate the faithful about the Sacred Liturgy and where to find resources, also to discuss liturgical abuses at our parishes and in the diocese and then have a pre-formed plan of action in dealing with them. Also, assisting others – like a consultant – in the diocese to deal with liturgical abuses at their own parishes.

My inspiration comes from Inaestimabile Donum:

"The faithful have a right to a true Liturgy, which means the Liturgy desired and laid down by the Church, which has in fact indicated where adaptations may be made as called for by pastoral requirements in different places or by different groups of people. Undue experimentation, changes and creativity bewilder the faithful. The use of unauthorized texts means a loss of the necessary connection between the lex orandi and the lex credendi."

I’m soooo tired of being “victims of weird and strange liturgical creativity!”

God bless,
Debbie

UNA VOCE
WWW.UNAVOCE.ORG

 

[LarryM]

I need some advice about this. Any ideas, thoughts, etc…

I am thinking about getting a diocesan group together, comprised of lay faithful, for the purpose of working to preserve the Sacred Liturgy of the Church – specifically working toward this in our diocese.

Isn’t that the job of the diocesan Office of Divine Worship?
L

 

[debbie_m]

Scott Waddell:

Sounds like a good idea. My advice is to make it abundently clear to anyone who enquires about your group that you are orthodox and not radical traditionalist. You do this by putting plainly in sight the following:

1. JPII is the legitimate Pope (Don’t hedge on this with things like, “legitimate but heretical” which will send good Catholics running.)
2. Vatican II is a legitimate, binding ecumenical Council. (Again, no hedging with stuff like, “pastoral Council”)
3. The so-called “Novus Ordo” liturgy is both valid and licit.

Also, always build your liturgical reforms up rather than tearing others down. Criticism is fine, but avoid the chip-on-the-shoulder attitude that pervades many liturgical housecleaning movements.

Scott

Hi Scott,

Thank you so much for this great advice. In fact, I will copy this into my files.

God bless,
Debbie

 

[debbie_m]

LarryM:

Isn’t that the job of the diocesan Office of Divine Worship?
L

Hi Larry,

We do have what’s called the “Liturgy Office” for the diocese, however, there are some liberal problems there…if you know what I mean.

God bless,
Debbie

 

[albert_cipriani]

3. The so-called “Novus Ordo” liturgy is both valid and licit.

Any sacraligious Mass is both valid and licit. Valid and licit are not to the point. The point is that the Novus Ordo liturgy, valid and licit as it may be, tends toward the sacraligious in its implementation and even when implemented perfectly, is less pious than the traditional Mass. Why try to fix what’s broken when there’s a perfect alternative in the Traditional Mass. Oh that’s right, I forgot: obedience to disobedient bishops. – Perplexed, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic

 

[Kielbasi]

I’m not sure what good that this group could be able to do.

Lay people don’t have any rights to implement any liturgical changes, and in any event the liturgy is just how most of the Catholics in attendance like it.

The bishops aren’t going to change the mass and liturgy in any major ways, like going back to Latin, because of that fact and the possibility of a major backlash and reductions in attendance and fiscally.

 

[albert_cipriani]

Kielbasi:

The bishops aren’t going to change the mass and liturgy in any major ways, like going back to Latin, because of that fact and the possibility of a major backlash and reductions in attendance and fiscally.

That’s a funny one. Since the bishops ushered in the New Mass, Church attendence has been cut in half. They didn’t seem to mind the drop off.

Something like only 25% of Catholics in this country go to Sunday Mass and less than 10% of Catholics in Europe do. Yet, we are supposed to believe that these same bishops are afraid of a backlash from the few remaining Catholics who can bear to hold their noses and attend their new mass?!

If they can still call this neuclear winter the springtime of Vatican II, I doubt they have enough of a handle on reality to know what a backlash is. Fact is, the remaining Catholics are so obedient that they are still blithely funding their sex scandal slush funds. With Catholics like that in tow, the bishops should have no worries about a backlash for giving us back the traditional Mass of our fathers. – Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic

 

[Kielbasi]

People don’t like change, Albert.

Especially in the field of religion.

Attendance took a big hit when there was the last huge round of liturgical changes, no doubt about it. The bishops don’t want to see the same thing again.

.

 

[Chris_Jacobsen]

Get some priests involved. They can offer good advice and also give “legitimacy” to your group.

 

[debbie_m]

Kielbasi:

I’m not sure what good that this group could be able to do. Lay people don’t have any rights to implement any liturgical changes, and in any event the liturgy is just how most of the Catholics in attendance like it. The bishops aren’t going to change the mass and liturgy in any major ways, like going back to Latin, because of that fact and the possibility of a major backlash and reductions in attendance and fiscally.

The purpose of the group would not be to change the Liturgy but to teach and protect the Liturgy that the Catholic Church has put forth. Unfortunately, there are some priests who take advantage of the fact that the majority of lay faithful don’t know the Liturgy. Therefore, they take it upon themselves to “re-create” the Liturgy with their own ideas which are unauthorized by the Magisterium. This, of course, confuses the faithful especially those who are trying to learn the Church’s Liturgy and teach their children. Also, these changes are usually not theologically correct and again confuse the faithful, especially in regards to the Real Prescence of Jesus in the Eucharist.

Furthermore, yes, there are things that the lay faithful can do to protect the Sacred Liturgy. First, we can learn about the Liturgy – for how can we love that which we don’t know? We can also hold our priests and bishops accountable if they take it upon themselves to change the Liturgy – by speaking to them, writing letters and showing them the Church’s documents. (Of course, this is all done with charity and prudence.) As a last resort, we can write to the Magisterium in Rome to report continuing abuses.

God bless,
Debbie

God bless,
Debbie

 

[mgy100]

At a parish level you could change things you don’t like. Join the music committee and influence it gently. Teach a Sunday school class, get involved in RCIA. Talk to the priest address your concerns, chances are somebody hasn’t done this with a level head and he might not know there is a dissenting opinion on something going on during mass. Good luck with all your endeavors.

 

[quiltingkaty]

At a parish level you could change things you don’t like.
Talk to the priest address your concerns, chances are somebody hasn’t done this with a level head and he might not know there is a dissenting opinion on something going on

Really!!! I belong to a parish where the pastoral team won’t listen to anyone about changes they are not willing to make. We don;t have a crucifix…we want one but they said NO. When we brought up the subject at a liturgy commitee meeting they about hit the roof…nasty tempers flaired from them. I don’t believe for a moment that priests care about anything you want to change.

Best Wishes though. I hope you succeed.

 

[Franciscum]

quiltingkaty:

Really!!! I belong to a parish where the pastoral team won’t listen to anyone about changes they are not willing to make. We don;t have a crucifix…we want one but they said NO. When we brought up the subject at a liturgy commitee meeting they about hit the roof…nasty tempers flaired from them. I don’t believe for a moment that priests care about anything you want to change.

Best Wishes though. I hope you succeed.

If there is no crucifix (with corpus) in the sanctuary for the faithful to see during the Mass, that’s a hard liturgical abuse. It goes against the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM.)

**GIRM #308. There is also to be a cross, with the figure of Christ crucified upon it, either on the altar or near it, where it is clearly visible to the assembled congregation. It is appropriate that such a cross, which calls to mind for the faithful the saving Passion of the Lord, remain near the altar even outside of liturgical celebrations.
**
Rather than waste time on a “pastoral team” I would write your pastor on this issue. If he didn’t resolve it, I would then write your bishop. They have no choice – the crucifix must be used.

 

[Kielbasi]

I understand what you’re trying to do and good luck.

But you can’t write a letter to the magisterium. Well, maybe you can, but since the magisterium is a thing and not a person or group of persons, it would be pretty futile. Like writing a letter to the constitution in Washington DC.

What you’re trying to say is that you would write a letter to the pope and his underlings in Rome.

 

[debbie_m]

Kielbasi:

I understand what you’re trying to do and good luck.

But you can’t write a letter to the magisterium. Well, maybe you can, but since the magisterium is a thing and not a person or group of persons, it would be pretty futile. Like writing a letter to the constitution in Washington DC.

What you’re trying to say is that you would write a letter to the pope and his underlings in Rome.

Okay, I admit that wasn’t the best wording. Let me re-phrase that then: As a last resort, we would write to the Congregation for Divine Worship (CDW) in Rome. (It does make a difference to do this, people do receive responses back and the CDW does address issues of serious abuse with diocesan Bishops.)

Thanks.

God bless,
Debbie

 

[Scott_Waddell]

albert cipriani:

Any sacraligious Mass is both valid and licit. Valid and licit are not to the point. The point is that the Novus Ordo liturgy, valid and licit as it may be, tends toward the sacraligious in its implementation and even when implemented perfectly, is less pious than the traditional Mass. Why try to fix what’s broken when there’s a perfect alternative in the Traditional Mass. Oh that’s right, I forgot: obedience to disobedient bishops. – Perplexed, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic

Whether one liturgy is more pious than another is certainly worthy of discussion, but that is not my point. I’m trying to help debbie with advice for putting together a group which I assume is out to promote a more pious liturgy. When good Catholics go to a group or site the first thing they do is look out for any warning flags. Denying any of the three points I gave will send most people running.

Scott

 

[kmmd]

Franciscum:

If there is no crucifix (with corpus) in the sanctuary for the faithful to see during the Mass, that’s a hard liturgical abuse. It goes against the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM.)

**GIRM #308. There is also to be a cross, with the figure of Christ crucified upon it, either on the altar or near it, where it is clearly visible to the assembled congregation. It is appropriate that such a cross, which calls to mind for the faithful the saving Passion of the Lord, remain near the altar even outside of liturgical celebrations.
**
Rather than waste time on a “pastoral team” I would write your pastor on this issue. If he didn’t resolve it, I would then write your bishop. They have no choice – the crucifix must be used.

I confronted my “parish leaders” on this one and was told that the “risen Christ” on the cross “counts” because there are “Holes in His hands” I kid you not. I asked for the documentation on that but never got it. During Lent they carry a bare cross.

 

[kmmd]

The sad truth is that Liturgy is badly abused and perhaps the saddest part of all is that there are many Bishops, including my own who are the problem. The newly elected head of the Bishops committee on the Liturgy is a prime example (Bishop of Erie).

There already groups that can help. First may I recommend Adoremus, dedicated to a renewal of the Sacred Liturgy adoremus.org/ the second place, that has been a great help to me is the St. Joseph Foundation st-joseph-foundation.org/ whose purpose is to defend catholic rights.

The most important thing that I have learned in all of this is to trust Jesus. He is King and this is His Kingdom. Some demons are only driven out through prayer and fasting. I can’t guarantee that prayer and fasting will change the hearts of our Bishops but I can assure you that with prayer and fasting you will be better able to discern God’s will for YOU and you will find the strength and courage to do whatever it is that He is calling you to do.

May God Bless you and guide you.