Need advice on a Catholic friend getting a protestant dunk

[dchet121272]

Thanks for checking this out.

I posted a question to the apologists, feel free to read first, but I’ll give the reader’s digest version here for your convenience…

I have a friend who I work with who will be “baptized” in a pool by a protestant preacher next weekend.

Thing is, she was born, raised, baptized and confirmed catholic. She does not regularly attend mass or participate in the sacraments. However, like many people…rather than embrace the mysteries and understand the truth of the catholic church, they leave for the warm fuzzies the protestants offer.

She has a close friend who has pulled her away. However, I am her catholic connection, have told her that the catholic church is the only church established by Jesus, but she is disinterested. Since I have been a spiritual director of sorts and a positve influence to her, she really wants me to attend. I feel like a bit of a failure, but I know that I did the best I could in offering to drive her to my church (which is wonderful), I’ve taken her to our local adoration chapel and prayed with her.

I am torn as to go to her dunking or not. Fr. Vincent said in a nutshell to stand up and don’t go because that is in essence encouraging her to leave the church. I see his point, I really do, but I had some other thoughts and he has bigger fish to fry:

1. Her family has chosen not to go support her. That has really soured her opinion of Catholics because now they appear intolerant of anyone unless they’re catholic
2. I have always told her that the Catholic church is the true church and we should pray for those who feel otherwise, but be tolerant and respectful of our protestant brothers and sisters. What kind of example will I be setting if I refuse to go?
3. She insists that she is not leaving the church and continually tells me that she is just getting cleansed again…nothing more. Personally, I say this is just the first step and she may be gone already. There is nothing more I can do except pray for her return after maybe she discovers the emptiness of other religions.

Would love to hear some thoughts out there. Thank you in advance.

 

[NPC]

I am torn as to go to her dunking or not. Fr. Vincent said in a nutshell to stand up and don’t go because that is in essence encouraging her to leave the church. I see his point, I really do, but I had some other thoughts and he has bigger fish to fry:

1. Her family has chosen not to go support her. That has really soured her opinion of Catholics because now they appear intolerant of anyone unless they’re catholic
2. I have always told her that the Catholic church is the true church and we should pray for those who feel otherwise, but be tolerant and respectful of our protestant brothers and sisters. What kind of example will I be setting if I refuse to go?
3. She insists that she is not leaving the church and continually tells me that she is just getting cleansed again…nothing more. Personally, I say this is just the first step and she may be gone already. There is nothing more I can do except pray for her return after maybe she discovers the emptiness of other religions.

Would love to hear some thoughts out there. Thank you in advance.

I understand this is a very difficult decision for you, but I would agree with Fr Serpa on this. I don’t think you should support your friend’s defection to Protestantism by attending this baptism. You say that in explaining to her about the Catholic Church you told her that we should be tolerant of, and respectful towards, people of other faiths. This is true, of course, but tolerance is very different to actually encouraging something. You have done your best to point your friend in the right direction - and I hope you will continue to try to lead her back to the Church. On your third point, you are right - she has, in a sense, left already. She was baptised into the Catholic Church once, and she does not need to be cleansed by baptism again - if she needs to be cleansed, it is through the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

I would suggest, if you do decide not to attend the baptism, that you speak to her beforehand and explain compassionately precisely why you feel you cannot attend. Assure her that you are not abandoning her and that you will support her in any way you can - but be firm that you cannot encourage her in actions which go against your faith. I hope this helps a bit, and I wish you and your friend all the best.

 

[graceandglory]

I understand this is a very difficult decision for you, but I would agree with Fr Serpa on this. I don’t think you should support your friend’s defection to Protestantism by attending this baptism. You say that in explaining to her about the Catholic Church you told her that we should be tolerant of, and respectful towards, people of other faiths. This is true, of course, but tolerance is very different to actually encouraging something. You have done your best to point your friend in the right direction - and I hope you will continue to try to lead her back to the Church. On your third point, you are right - she has, in a sense, left already. She was baptised into the Catholic Church once, and she does not need to be cleansed by baptism again - if she needs to be cleansed, it is through the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

I would suggest, if you do decide not to attend the baptism, that you speak to her beforehand and explain compassionately precisely why you feel you cannot attend. Assure her that you are not abandoning her and that you will support her in any way you can - but be firm that you cannot encourage her in actions which go against your faith. I hope this helps a bit, and I wish you and your friend all the best.

I would suggest giving her the book, “My Life on the Rock” a conversion/reversion story of a Catholic who became a born again Christian, became a protestant pastor, and then came back to the Catholic Church.

That’s basically my story, only I didn’t become a pastor, just married into a protestant pastor’s family.

I left the Catholic Church because I didn’t know how to refute well-informed protestant apologists. The Catholics I knew when I was younger were ALL “cafeteria Catholics” and not faithful Catholics. I didn’t leave for the “warm-fuzzies” at all. I left because I truly believed that my evangelical friends were true Christians.

Now that I have come back to the Catholic Church, I realize that although my friends were true Christians, and I was too, it was only a glimmer of the truth which can be found in completion in the Catholic Church.

 

[jmcrae]

Sorry, I think I’m going to sound kind of cranky on this one. I’m not feeling well, and I can’t think of a “nice” way to phrase what I feel I need to say, here.

1. She insists that she is not leaving the church and continually tells me that she is just getting cleansed again…nothing more.

If she wants to “get cleansed again,” then she should go to Confession - that’s what it’s there for.

Yes, she is leaving the Church. This is called a “formal act of defection.” If she goes ahead with this, she will not be allowed to receive Holy Communion in the Catholic Church until she renounces her Protestant faith and returns to the Church by means of a good Confession.

What you have to do is clarify the issue for her and let her know that she can’t stand on both sides of the fence at the same time.

Either she wants to undergo this initiation ritual into a non-Catholic religion, or she wants to remain Catholic, in which case she needs to go to Confession and start coming regularly to Mass. There is no way to have it both ways.

If she just wants to cleanse her soul and recommit herself to Jesus, then as I said above, she should go to Confession, because that’s what Confession is for.

In either case, you should not attend the ceremony, and neither, I think, should she.

 

[dchet121272]

• if she needs to be cleansed, it is through the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

I would suggest, if you do decide not to attend the baptism, that you speak to her beforehand and explain compassionately precisely why you feel you cannot attend. Assure her that you are not abandoning her and that you will support her in any way you can - but be firm that you cannot encourage her in actions which go against your faith. I hope this helps a bit, and I wish you and your friend all the best.

That helped a bundle and the more I sit and pray about it, the more I think that I will not be attending. I will definately have a sit down with her and mention the things you suggested. THANK YOU!

 

[dchet121272]

In either case, you should not attend the ceremony, and neither, I think, should she.

Thank you…I agree and will mention Reconciliation as my last ditch effort to hold on to her. I was like her in that I was a cradle catholic too and ready to leave when I didn’t understand…but through prayer and discussions, decided to LEARN more about it and other religions too. If not Catholic…then where? I discovered the WHY’s of our religion and fell deeper in love with her.

So when my mind explodes with all the reasons to stay…I forgot to mention RECONCILIATION to her…:doh2:.

Thanks and hope you get to feeling better!

 

[dchet121272]

I left the Catholic Church because I didn’t know how to refute well-informed protestant apologists. The Catholics I knew when I was younger were ALL “cafeteria Catholics” and not faithful Catholics. I didn’t leave for the “warm-fuzzies” at all. I left because I truly believed that my evangelical friends were true Christians.

Now that I have come back to the Catholic Church, I realize that although my friends were true Christians, and I was too, it was only a glimmer of the truth which can be found in completion in the Catholic Church.

AMEN!!! I almost left, but like Peter replied to Jesus when he asked him if he was going to leave too. He said…“where shall I go?”.

I didn’t leave her…I just fell in love with her more deeply.

 

[Carjack1]

Is no one going to support your friend? That is sad. . You would be saying I don’t tolerate your faith because you are Protestant. Does she not feel that she is growing spiritually with the Catholic Church? If she feels that her Catholic baptism was valid, she shouldn’t be getting herself baptized in a a Protestant Church to recleanse herself. If you do not attend, will the lines of communication be closed? I think your friend is really confused. To define the Protestant religion as “warm fuzzies” is a bit degrading. You might want to tell her that you fell that way.

 

[puzzleannie]

to go and witness this event is to deny, in public, everything you have tried to teach your friend about the Catholic faith, and would make you a liar and a hypocrite. Tell her this when you explain why you will not be there, but will be praying for her.

 

[ethelzguy]

OOPS, I thought the title said “Need advice on a Catholic friend getting a protestant DRUNK”…

But then again, maybe there’s a thought. Get your friend aside for a few refreshments, and when they’ve loosened up a bit, maybe you can get to the root of their issue with the Catholic Church.

ok, so I’m kidding…it IS Friday evening…

All kidding aside, I faced a similar situation with two of my grandchildren. Both grandchildren had been baptized Catholic. But they were allowed to occasionally attend a Disciples of Christ church with their other grandparents.

Eventually the other grandfather made it his “mission” to get ALL of his grandchildren baptized at his church. We were invited to witness all eleven of his grandkids getting dunked, and agonized over what to do. We finally decided that since our grandkids were already baptized Catholic, and that they were kids and not making any statement of faith, that we would go to keep the peace.

But in this case, your friend IS making a statement of faith. Probably not a good idea to go. You could make the case that they are excommunicating themselves, and for you to be a witness to that probably isn’t a good thing.

 

[MrS]

I could not go. And I would say to her

"I can not attend and thereby tell God He did it wrong the first time. Baptism is a sacrament, not a Protestant ordinance, and it confers grace. As the Catholic Apostle Peter tells us, Z’… baptism now saves you…’ "

“You have been baptised with water and the Hoy Spirit. Do not take that so lightly.”

And I still care for you very much.

 

[kage_ar]

Ask her to sit down with you and read Ephesians chapter 4. Pay special attention to verse 5 (one Lord, one faith, one baptism). Show her that a second baptism is directly opposing the Scriptures.

usccb.org/nab/bible/ephesians/ephesians4.htm

 

[guanophore]

Thanks for checking this out.

I posted a question to the apologists, feel free to read first, but I’ll give the reader’s digest version here for your convenience…

I have a friend who I work with who will be “baptized” in a pool by a protestant preacher next weekend.

Thing is, she was born, raised, baptized and confirmed catholic. She does not regularly attend mass or participate in the sacraments. However, like many people…rather than embrace the mysteries and understand the truth of the catholic church, they leave for the warm fuzzies the protestants offer.

She has a close friend who has pulled her away. However, I am her catholic connection, have told her that the catholic church is the only church established by Jesus, but she is disinterested. Since I have been a spiritual director of sorts and a positve influence to her, she really wants me to attend. I feel like a bit of a failure, but I know that I did the best I could in offering to drive her to my church (which is wonderful), I’ve taken her to our local adoration chapel and prayed with her.

Don’t get down on yourself. You have made it clear that you have been a good witness,a nd that she has chosen to walk away. You are in good company, they did the same thing to Jesus.

I am torn as to go to her dunking or not. Fr. Vincent said in a nutshell to stand up and don’t go because that is in essence encouraging her to leave the church. I see his point, I really do, but I had some other thoughts and he has bigger fish to fry:

1. Her family has chosen not to go support her. That has really soured her opinion of Catholics because now they appear intolerant of anyone unless they’re catholic

This is an absurd and illogical conclusion. The decision to avoid participating in other people’s wrongdoing does not mean a person is “intolerant”. There are no Catholics waiting outside
the door of the baptismal to burn down the building and slay the “heretics”! They can practice their beliefs as they so choose. It is not intolerant for others to refrain from participating. Refusing to support apostasy is not equal to refusing to support the person commiting it.

1. I have always told her that the Catholic church is the true church and we should pray for those who feel otherwise, but be tolerant and respectful of our protestant brothers and sisters. What kind of example will I be setting if I refuse to go?

You will be setting an example of fervent commitment to your faith. Spend the time sitting in front of the Blessed Sacrament in prayer for her while she is there.

1. She insists that she is not leaving the church and continually tells me that she is just getting cleansed again…nothing more. Personally, I say this is just the first step and she may be gone already. There is nothing more I can do except pray for her return after maybe she discovers the emptiness of other religions.

She has been misinformed and misled. You are right, this is a step that will take her down the “gone already” path. Scripture teaches that there is only one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins. These Protestants don’t recognize infant baptism as valid, nor do they recognize the other sacraments. She has left the Catholic faith, though she may not realize that she has done so.

 

[Andy_Corder]

I too would not go and witness her act of baptism in the other church. I come from the Protestant faith, converting to Catholicism 25 years ago. As a college-age person in the Protestant faith, I was trained to convert Catholics by hitting the weakness of the Church.

Many cradle Catholic (the majority in my opinon) do not regularly read the bible. Someone converting a Catholic counts on this. When it comes to baptism in particular, they will point to the Baptism of Jesus, which the bible records as an immersion in the river Jordan. The arguement then comes…“if Jesus was immersered, shouldn’t we be also? Anything else is not legitimate.”

I would encourage you to find out what is attracting her to the other church. It is proabably a feeling of being more socially welcomed and encouraged in the other church. I’m not saying it is a valid thing, it is a feeling. Most Protestant churches do a much better job of greeting people who arrive at church and especially in greeting new people. The time before church in many Protestant churches is a social time, where in the Catholic Church it is time for prayer, and preparation to recieve Jesus in the Eucharist.

You are dealing with emotional issues in her case. To simply state the “Catholic Church is the one true Church” is not going to win the arguement, because a skilled evangelist in any Protestant faith will overcome that by declaring it a narrow segregationist view. Most of the Protestants (there are exceptions) see the Protestant faith as the true church and the Catholic Church as the fallen away shell of God’s church. They point to the scriptures written by St Paul where he speaks of “many parts but one body” and explains that each denomination within the Protestant Church are the “parts” and the believers in Christ as a whole make up “the body”.

Talk with her about why she feels drawn to the other church and then help her find that missing link in one of the parishes nearby.

 

[Newbie2]

OOPS, I thought the title said “Need advice on a Catholic friend getting a protestant DRUNK”…

.

I did too!

Don’t many protestant churches accept “Catholic baptism” as baptism and your friend wouldn’t need to be baptized again?

 

[Jennifer_G]

OOPS, I thought the title said “Need advice on a Catholic friend getting a protestant DRUNK”…

I thought it was a typo too when I read the thread.

Anyway, to the OP, maybe you could remind your friend about the Nicene Creed ("…one baptism for the forgiveness of sins") - she doesn’t need another baptism to be cleansed. If she wants that, then there’s confession. Being baptised again (i.e., for the purpose of cleansing your sins again) would really be pushing God’s hand, and would be abusing that sacrament.

 

[guanophore]

Don’t many protestant churches accept “Catholic baptism” as baptism and your friend wouldn’t need to be baptized again?

No. Most of the evangelical sects who go after Catholics derive from the Calvanist tradition> Baptist> and so on. They don’t recognize infant baptism, but only “believers baptism”. They believe that a person must be able to make a profession of faith before the baptism is valid.

Anyway, to the OP, maybe you could remind your friend about the Nicene Creed ("…one baptism for the forgiveness of sins") - she doesn’t need another baptism to be cleansed. If she wants that, then there’s confession. Being baptised again (i.e., for the purpose of cleansing your sins again) would really be pushing God’s hand, and would be abusing that sacrament.

Many of them don’t accept he Creed either, especially since it has that dreaded word “catholic” in it. Clearly the OP’s friend has already been confused and may believe that her baptism is not valid. I say she is confused because the Anabaptists sects don’t believe that baptism has any cleansing value (is not sacramental). They teach that it is an “ordinance” (something you do because Jesus commanded it) not an event that conveys grace. They believe it is something one should do to make a public confession that they are a Christian.

If she thinks she will be “cleansed” by being baptised again then she has not understood her own Catholic faith, and has not yet understood the Protestant sect of which she is becoming a member. Being baptised again accomplished this in neither case.

 

[Andy_Corder]

No. Most of the evangelical sects who go after Catholics derive from the Calvanist tradition> Baptist> and so on. They don’t recognize infant baptism, but only “believers baptism”. They believe that a person must be able to make a profession of faith before the baptism is valid.

Many of them don’t accept he Creed either, especially since it has that dreaded word “catholic” in it. Clearly the OP’s friend has already been confused and may believe that her baptism is not valid. I say she is confused because the Anabaptists sects don’t believe that baptism has any cleansing value (is not sacramental). They teach that it is an “ordinance” (something you do because Jesus commanded it) not an event that conveys grace. They believe it is something one should do to make a public confession that they are a Christian.

If she thinks she will be “cleansed” by being baptised again then she has not understood her own Catholic faith, and has not yet understood the Protestant sect of which she is becoming a member. Being baptised again accomplished this in neither case.

Well stated indeed.:clapping: In order to get your friend to see what she is doing, you must reach out to her on the same grounds as the “close friend” is and then show her that what she seeks is already available in the Catholic Church.

If she is thinking she is just doing this for “cleansing” she is definately being mis-led by her friend. Once they get her baptized into their church the pressure to conform to their beliefs in all areas will start. For most of the Protestant churches, baptism is a form of admission to church membership, not just a benefit they hand out to whomever desires it. They expect fully for the newly baptized person to become an active and participating member of their worship. They will continue to work on your friend until she does fully renounce her affilation and membership in the Catholic Church.

 

[japhy]

1. She insists that she is not leaving the church and continually tells me that she is just getting cleansed again…nothing more. Personally, I say this is just the first step and she may be gone already. There is nothing more I can do except pray for her return after maybe she discovers the emptiness of other religions.

I would remind her that the Church believes in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. Further cleansing is done through Confession.

I would admonish her gently but firmly, and would not attend her “re-baptism”.

 

[dchet121272]

First of all, to everyone who took the time to help me on this issue, I thank you. From the bottom of my heart.

Second, an update: I sat down with her on Saturday privately and told her that I would not attend her dunking because I could not condone her in leaving the Catholic church. I told her that I also thought she should not attend it either for all the reasons everyone here has outlined.

I have invited her several times to attend church with me and asked her more specific reasons as to why she wants to leave. Her answers are all classic Protestant talking points…“catholic church is just a bunch of man made rules”…“catholics don’t follow the bible”…we have all heard them before. Even when I take the time to debunk the arguments, she nods in agreement.

Bottom line was that I told her to pray about it, do her own research and most importanly…listen to what Jesus is telling her to do. She says that the Holy Spirit is leading her to the other church.

We are still friends, she took it well that I would not attend her event, but she was gone long before I got to her.

Once again, thank you all for your (name removed by moderator)ut.